RAMC Database

[sutton-in-craven]

Hello BJay,

I am desperately trying to discover who a particular RAMC recipient was I am wanting to research and was wondering if he may be amongst your database?

He appears on the Sutton-in-Craven war memorial as PTE. S. LUND, R.A.M.C. (ATT.R.N.D.)

I have already asked the question in another thread which seems to have drawn a blank and have been 'referred' to you!

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=151697

His name cannot be found in the MIC cards listed on Ancestry or the National Archives. I cannot find a S. Lund associated with Sutton-in-Craven on the 1911 UK census and I cannot find a deceased S. Lund on Ancestry between 1914 and 1923 when the memorial was unveiled.

Any information you may have would be greatly appreciated, kind regards Andrew

[BJanman]

Hi Andrew

No sorry, I do not have any information

Barbara

[sutton-in-craven]

No worries, thanks for checking Barbara

All the best, Andrew

[dobbin]

Barbara do you have any refernce to Rueban Bowles on your databas please. He lived at Halstead Essex if I have the correct M I C. Thanks Colin

[BJanman]

Hi Colin

Reuben Bowles on the MIC you posted entered the war in France on 22/8/1914 with the 1st Bn. Hampshire Regiment. This info is from the 1914 Star medal rolls. I do not have any other information about him on the database but hope that helps.

Barbara

[dobbin]

Barbara thanks as ever for help its really much appreciated. Colin

[Nigel Marshall]

Hello again, Barbara,

I've just remembered that another of my men was RAMC for a time.

1514 Driver Herbert Owen McConnell served with B Section, 2nd West Riding Field Ambulance, 49th Division. He transferred to ASC in November 1915. He also served with the Coldstream Guards prior to moving to the Military Mounted Police. Below is a photo of his grave in Awoingt British Cemetery. If I can successfully re-size it, I will post a photo of his family headstone at Barwick in Elmet which forms a memorial to him and carries the same personal inscription as his headstone in France.

I'm currently working on biographies for him and his four brothers, who all saw service, and once this is done. I'll post it here so you can pick out anything you'd like to use.

I think your website is a great resource and is really well put together. Well done.

Cheers,

Nigel

[BJanman]

Hi Nigel

Many thanks for this, especially for the photographs. Its fortunate for me in a way that my father did a bit of research with the CWGC on RAMC casualties and so he had a draft book of who they are listed in the cemeteries they are now resting in. This means that when I visit a cemetery I can just photocopy the page and take it will me, I do not have to do any research first to find them. It has occurred to me that i may be walking past men who enlisted into the RAMC but changed to another regiment, unfortunately there are so many known RAMC to get through first that I won't be able to research the others until much later. I really appreciate the above.

Thanks again

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hello Barbara,

My father did some more newspaper trawling for 1917 and manged to get some more information. First of all, it sounds as though I was incorrect about the 4 Canadian Stationary hospital. The newspaper microfiche mentions 'a Canadian stationary hospital' - the copy was a bit grubby and I may have transcribed the details incorrectly (or it's down to Operator error). Secondly, the Wrexham Advertiser of 24th March 1917 has Private Stanley Jones writing home whilst recovering from his wound in hospital in Malta after being moved from Salonika.The article describes St David's day celebrations by Welsh troops and the Governor General of Malta in Valetta.

We tried to contact relatives to obtain photographs of Stanley from the period but have had no luck so far.

One thing that has emerged is that if the newspaper correspondence is a reliable guide a disproportionately large number of recruits from the Wrexham area seem to have been joined the RAMC and served in Salonika and the Middle East. Do you have any information on how recruitment took place for the RAMC (as opposed to the regular army) in the Great War.

Regards

David

Excellent, thank you for confirming.

This is all a bit confusing because of the details that do not tie up. I also have a concern about the reference to Stanley Jones being wounded and lying in the 4th Canadian Stationery Hospital in Salonika because the information I hold about this hospital is that it was stationed in France and never went to Salonika. The 4th Canadian General Hospital was in Salonika but had moved to Kalamaria in 1916.

I am due a visit to the National Archive so will check the three war diaries for you. It probably won't be for a couple of weeks but I have promised a look up for someone else so am happy to check this out for you. Alternatively, if you would like someone to do a look up sooner then you could try asking in the Look up, Photo and Document requests section.

Barbara

[BJanman]

Hello David

The Official History has a chapter on recruiting of Medical Services but it's mainly about numbers, qualifications needed and about women and doctors being recruited. My database is starting to reveal patterns in the way the RAMC recruited during the war, however I still need to get more information onto it. It would appear that some areas/locations formed medical units for specific New Army Divisions and then starting recruiting but from I have so far it was only a few areas/locations and only for a certain period of time.

I hope that makes sense.

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hi Barbara

I've got some information that will hopefully be of use for your database as well as some more information on my grandfather

1) Photograph and details of RAMC volunteers

From left to right are: 49175 Pte Edward Williams, 49174 Pte John Edward Lea, 49170 Pte Stanley Jones (my grandfather). It must have been taken between January and June 1915 as the first two were subsequently transferred to the 8th Btn RWF. They were probably part of a batch of 8 people recruited from the Wrexham area recruited by a Sergeant Lawrence (23rd RWF Recruiting Area)) and attested 11/12 January 1915. A relative of John Lee has told us that my grandfather and his two friends were part of a group drinking in a tavern that were approached by the recruiting sergeant and persuaded to sign up. A brother of John Lea apparently decided to leave the group on the way to the recruiting office by jumping over a wall.

The picture is on a battered postcard addressed to my Great Grandmother but has little detail other than the writing 'Sefton 4769'.

Of the batch of eight men from Wrexham, I have details for 4 of them (including my grandfather). I suspect given history of Ptes Williams and Lea that the missing 4 were probably transferred to the RWF or other army units later in the year.

Details I have are:

49168, Pte Arthur Jones of 19 Trinity Street, Rhostyllen, nr Wrexham. He was a collier and attested (age 28) on 12th January 1915. He was based in Malta from 11th June 1915 till 3rd July 1917 before joining 65 General Hospital attached to the British Salonika Force. He left the Salonika theatre on 28th January 1919, reached home on 13th February and discharged to class z on 15th March 1919.

49174, Pte John Edward Lea of 8 Lloft Wen, Adwy'r Clawdd, nr Wrexham. A coal miner attested on 11th January 1915 (age 19 years). He spent time (as did all the men) in the RAMC camp (4th New Army) at Llandrindod Wells before transferring to the 3rd RWF on 2nd June 1915 as reg number 30167. As part of the 8th Battalion RWF he arrived at Gallipoli on 8th November 1915. He survived Gallipoli and went to Basra (Mesopotamia theatre) via Port Said, arriving on 28th February 1916. He was wounded with a gunshot wound to the arm on 8th April 1916 and invalided to India on the Hospital Ship Syria. After spending time at the depot in the Ranikhet Hill station, he arrived back in Basra on 31st October 1916. He was killed in action on 25th January 1917 as part of offensive operations against Kut.

49175, Pte Edward Williams of 2 Poplar Place, Adwy'r Clawdd nr Wrexham. A coal miner who joined aged 20 on 11th January 1915. Transferred to the 3rd RWF on 2nd June 1915 and received subsequent training at Litherland camp. As 31010 Pte Williams arrived in Gallipoli on 7th November 1915 but was killed in action on 5th January 1915. He is commemorated on the Helles memorial.

2) Database of RAMC men numbers 49000-49300.

I have a database that I compiled to help me understand the context of my grandfather's joining the RAMC. It lists details of name, number, theatre of war first joined (and date) and where possible details of occupation, town lived in, place recruited, unit attached and details if killed. Although the unit and personal information is patchy, it appears that the majority of men from 49000-49200 first served in France on 2nd October 1915 and probably with the 72-74th Field Ambulance. Men seem to have come from Sunderland, Lancashire and the West Midlands. There is then a block of men to 49260 who were primarily from the south and Home Counties who first entered France on 1st June 1915. I have no details of unit. There is then a definite block of men who served first in Egypt on 5th July 1915 and were drawn dominantly from the South Wales Valleys and coastal towns.

However, scattered through the list are odd ones and twos of people who were scattered in odd ones and twos to several field ambulances (28th - 230th), Hospital ships and others that I am not familiar with (MAC?).

I have this data in spreadsheet format and can let you have a copy if it would help you.

3) Grandfather

Interesting as this was, I am still puzzled over my Grandfather as he falls in a 'gap' in the records which would be even wider but for the information on Ptes Williams and Lea. I suspect you are right in that they may originally have been recruited for a Field Ambulance to be attached to the RWF but were broken up later and used as reinforcements to various units. I still favour him being attached to the 10th Division (other facts fit - Salonika, Egypt, base in 1918, France in late 1918 with convalescence in Ireland (Q: Holywood))but the MIC and also family stories place him in the Dardanelles / Gallipoli in November 1915 when the 10th had already moved to Salonika. I also find it odd (but lucky given the circumstances) that he remained in the RWF with his two friends transferred to the RWF. We will continue to talk to relatives and search the local press.

Regards

David

[BJanman]

Hi David

Thank you very much for sharing the photograph and for the information. Would you be happy if I scanned the photograph to provide individual pictures for their profiles?

I was going to set up profiles for them today but to be honest I am unsure where on the database to list them. I don’t want to add them in the 'unknown unit' section because Pte Lea and Pte Williams never really served with a medical unit as such. They obviously started their training and usually RAMC regulars did their training with a ‘Company’ but I am not sure which company at the moment or if it was a ‘company’ taking into account they may have been units specially raised for New Army Divisions . I have an idea where to look but I need to go to the National Archive. I will try to get there before Christmas and come back to you.

Thank you also for your offer to let me have a copy of your spreadsheet, this will be really helpful to me. I am battling a bit with getting the information onto the database against looking up queries for people but I am getting there. My database is showing about 23 men who arrived in France on 2nd October 1915, the numbers range between 47... and 53... and I agree with you they are showing 72 - 73rd Field Ambulances. Most of the 492.. numbers I have though, which is in between, were to men known to have served with the 38th and 39th Field Ambulances.

230th Field Ambulance served in Egypt with the 74th [Yeomanry] Division and MAC means Motor Ambulance Convoy.

I will let you know when I have been to the National Archive so if you want to hold on to your spreadsheet until then, we can then exchange information.

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hi Barbara

no problem at all about using the photograph. If it comes out grainy I can email you a better copy to your main website. You can zoom in quite well on the original and you can clearly see the letters RAMC in metal on the rh shoulder of Pte Williams.

I have about 50+ entering France on 2nd October between 49000 and 49200. There are also a handful going to Egypt on 27/7/15 but others are scattered mainly entering France.

I can understand the question over creating slots Ptes Williams and Lea as they do not figure as RAMC on the MIC. The details are on their enlistment papers but if it hadn't been for the photograph and the family the connection would have gone unnoticed. Private Lea is distantly related to the my family through marriage and the story is given poignancy by his family writing a poem in memoriam which appeared in the Wrexham Advertiser.

Let me know when I can send the database. Having completed just a limited search through 300 records to help tie down my Grandfather's story I can start to appreciate the hard work you've been putting into your website.

All the best

David

Hi David

Thank you very much for sharing the photograph and for the information. Would you be happy if I scanned the photograph to provide individual pictures for their profiles?

I was going to set up profiles for them today but to be honest I am unsure where on the database to list them. I don't want to add them in the 'unknown unit' section because Pte Lea and Pte Williams never really served with a medical unit as such. They obviously started their training and usually RAMC regulars did their training with a 'Company' but I am not sure which company at the moment or if it was a 'company' taking into account they may have been units specially raised for New Army Divisions . I have an idea where to look but I need to go to the National Archive. I will try to get there before Christmas and come back to you.

Thank you also for your offer to let me have a copy of your spreadsheet, this will be really helpful to me. I am battling a bit with getting the information onto the database against looking up queries for people but I am getting there. My database is showing about 23 men who arrived in France on 2nd October 1915, the numbers range between 47... and 53... and I agree with you they are showing 72 - 73rd Field Ambulances. Most of the 492.. numbers I have though, which is in between, were to men known to have served with the 38th and 39th Field Ambulances.

230th Field Ambulance served in Egypt with the 74th [Yeomanry] Division and MAC means Motor Ambulance Convoy.

I will let you know when I have been to the National Archive so if you want to hold on to your spreadsheet until then, we can then exchange information.

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hi Barbara,

I went and did some more digging and looks as though both Pte Williams and Lea were with G Company before transfer. The image below is from Pte Williams record and also possibly refers to K Co?

Williams.pdf

Regards

David

[BJanman]

Thanks David

"G" Coy looks good, there is a George Taylor listed on my database who was known to have been attached to "G" Coy when he died and is buried in Llandrindod Wells Cemetery so "G" Coy was definitely located in this area.

I have now set up profiles for Edward Williams, John Edward Lea and Arthur Jones on the on-line database and have also transferred your Grandfather over to the section "G" Coy as we know they did their training together.

Whilst transferring the info to my Access database, I noticed I have a Stanley Jones who lived at 12 Llwynon Road, Clydach, Swansea. I have his unit but no service number. Would this be your Grandfather? I'm not sure if I mentioned him before or if I have added him to the Access database since I last communicated with you.

I don't mind when you send me your spreadsheet, as soon as I receive it I can start cross referencing with any information I might already have. I might not be able to get all of them onto the on-line database straight away though, it would depend how many had known unit information.

I really do appreciate all your help.

Barbara

[Jonathan_NW]

Hi Barbara

I have not seen your thread until now and I thought you may wish to add the following man to your database.

39424 Private John Gibson 40th Base Field Ambulance

He died on 21 September 1918 and his grave is in the Tehran War Cemetery, Iran

I wrote to the Embassy there asking if it was possible to obtain a photo of his grave and I was overwhelmed by the response with offers to help from various Embassy Officials. The following come courtesy of James Lipsett who is the Community Liason Officer at the Embassy. The reference is from the cemetery's book of remembrance.

Cheers

Jonathan

[DJJones]

Hi Barbara

My Grandfather lived at 14 Heol Offa, Adwy'r Clawdd, Coedpoeth, nr Wrexham, Denbighshire and stayed there most of his life (with the exception of the War).

I'll send the spreadsheet via your main website.

All the best David

Thanks David

"G" Coy looks good, there is a George Taylor listed on my database who was known to have been attached to "G" Coy when he died and is buried in Llandrindod Wells Cemetery so "G" Coy was definitely located in this area.

I have now set up profiles for Edward Williams, John Edward Lea and Arthur Jones on the on-line database and have also transferred your Grandfather over to the section "G" Coy as we know they did their training together.

Whilst transferring the info to my Access database, I noticed I have a Stanley Jones who lived at 12 Llwynon Road, Clydach, Swansea. I have his unit but no service number. Would this be your Grandfather? I'm not sure if I mentioned him before or if I have added him to the Access database since I last communicated with you.

I don't mind when you send me your spreadsheet, as soon as I receive it I can start cross referencing with any information I might already have. I might not be able to get all of them onto the on-line database straight away though, it would depend how many had known unit information.

I really do appreciate all your help.

Barbara

[Jonathan_NW]

Barbara

John Gibson continued...

I was in the Wigan archive this afternoon and I found this article about him. It's from the Wigan Observer 27 July 1915

THE OBSERVER IN THE TRENCHES

Football between the English and the French

Private John Gibson of 5, Higham Street, Wigan who is serving with the R.A.M.C "somewhere in France" in a recent letter sent to his mother says the Observer, a copy of which she sends him every week is eagerly read by all in the trenches. He also describes an enjoyable football match played between teams of English and French soldiers just behind the firing lines, he playing for the Englishmen and after a hard tussle they managed to beat their French friends by six goals to two. That he can indulge in his favourite sport amidst the shot and shell is a tribute alike to the sang froid and the inherent sportsmanlike spirit of both 'Tommy Atkins' and his comrade de guerre, the popular Piou-piou.

I hope this of use

Jonathan

[BJanman]

Hi David

Thanks for confirming that the Stanley Jones from Swansea is not your Grandfather, that is one Stanley Jones I can discount. Thanks also for the spreadsheet, I received it ok.

Hi Jonathan

Thank you for posting John Gibson’s grave marker. I am assuming that 40th Base Field Ambulance was 40th Field Ambulance but I am intrigued that the newspaper report said he was “somewhere in France” because as far as I can see the unit did not go to the Western Front, also John entered the war on the Eastern Front and died on the Eastern Front. It is a bit late now but I will look into it and try to add him to the database tomorrow.

Barbara

[hlough]

Hi

I am hoping you can help with an old query I have been working on. See http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122757&st=0&p=1178375&fromsearch=1entry1178375 As part of a local project we are trying to write a little about each serviceman in our area who died. The man concerned is Private James Clarence Renwick 44735 he was in the RAMC but was promoted to 2nd Lt in the Irish Rifles and is listed on the CWGC.

What I am hoping you can tell me is where Private Renwick enlisted and where he served with the RAMC.

Thanks in advance

Heath

[BJanman]

Hi Heath

I don't have any information on James Clarence Renwick but his date of entry into France is the same date as the 46th and 47th Field Ambulances. I've seen the names of O/R's mentioned in field ambulance war diaries before when they have gained a commission in a combatant regiment so it is worth checking out these two war diaries.

Barbara

[hlough]

<P>Thank you for this Barbara. I'll go and look at the diaries now would really like to track this man down. Heather<BR><BR>Barbara congratulations on the website it isgreat. <BR><BR><BR>Hi again Barbara<BR><BR>Brain must not be engaged this morning. Do you know who the 46th & 47th Field Ambulance were attached to? Would this be 46th & 47th Brigades</P>

<P>thanks in advance</P>

<P>Heather<BR></P>

[BJanman]

Hi Heather

They were with the 15th Division. 46th Field Ambulance was attached to 45th Brigade and 47th Field Ambulance was attached to 46th Brigade.

The war diaries reference numbers at the NA are:

46th Field Ambulance - WO 95/1931

47th Field Ambulance - WO 95/1932

Good luck, hope you can trace him.

Barbara

[hlough]

Barbara

Thanks again. I'll go and look now

Heather

[petey]

hi im looking for a ricard ,henry ,williams ,,,, born in mostyn flintshire 1880 , joined the r.a.m.c. 1914 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,service in messopatnia and baghdad ,,,,,, about all i know !