RAMC Database

[CarylW]

Barbara

You gave me your e-mail address via PM shortly after the upgrade so that I could send photos of RAMC men but unfortunately before I had the chance to reply or keep a record of your e-mail address we lost access to our PM's. As far as I know you have disabled your e-mail contact facility here and on your site (I understand reasons)

Please could you contact me via my e-mail address on the front page of my Birkenhead Memorial site, using the e-mail address I can use to send the photos

Thanks - we'll get there in the end

Caryl.

[BJanman]

My father was Lieut Morris, the "Morrison" was a typo.

Alfred

Thanks Alfred, that explains a lot. Mainly why I couldn't trace him. I did notice that your surname was Morris, which is really close but if I have learnt anything whilst doing the database, it is never take anything for granted.

I am guessing your father was Capt Arthur Harry Morris, this is a guess but he is the only Morris in the 1921 Medical Directory I can find who practiced in Devon and who entered the war in 1918. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Thank you for posting a photograph of your father. It is a lovely photo. Would you be happy for me to use the photograph on the RAMC database? If so I will set up a profile for him.

Thanks again for your help.

Barbara

[BJanman]

Barbara

You gave me your e-mail address via PM shortly after the upgrade so that I could send photos of RAMC men but unfortunately before I had the chance to reply or keep a record of your e-mail address we lost access to our PM's. As far as I know you have disabled your e-mail contact facility here and on your site (I understand reasons)

Please could you contact me via my e-mail address on the front page of my Birkenhead Memorial site, using the e-mail address I can use to send the photos

Thanks - we'll get there in the end

Caryl.

No worries Caryl, I've noticed all the post re the problems with the forum and that the PM system is not working. I am also aware it all went pear shaped after we sent each other messages, in fact I thought you may not have received my reply. I didn't know my email is disabled though, I will check that some time soon.

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of your email address, I will contact you.

Cheers

Barbara

[Morris]

Barbara,

I will be in touch. I have more info about my father.

Alfred

[DJJones]

Hi

I've been following the progress on the RAMC data-base for some time and very impressed by how far it has developed. I would like to volunteer the details I’ve found out about my grandfather who served in the RAMC and a photograph of him with other members of his unit. Sadly, I do not know which unit of the RAMC he served with but have some theories.

Medal Card Data

49170 Private [William] Stanley Jones RAMC

Theatre first entered: 2B Balkans on 20th November 1915

Discharged to class Z on 18th January 1919

There are no other papers surviving in the National Archives but I tracked down a couple of references to him in the 'Wrexham Advertiser':

24th February 1917: Pte Stanley Jones reported seriously wounded in action in Salonika and currently lying at the 4th Canadian Stationary Hospital in Salonika.

October 13th 1917: Pte Stanley Jones home on leave after serving 'over' two years in Salonika. Following his leave, he is to be sent to a convalescent home in Ireland to recuperate.

My Grandfather died before I was born and family history is scant but my father recalls that his father talked about serving in the 'Dardanelles', Salonika, Egypt, Palestine and may have ended up in France (an incident he recalls is of a story of my grandfather having to quieten unruly German prisoners who he was guarding on a train - including unorthodox use of a corned beef tin!!). He recalls that my grandfather had a shoulder wound (shrapnel) and suffered recurring bouts of malaria (and had to take quinine following the war). There are some family pictures of him in uniform in front of the pyramids in Egypt. My father believes my grandfather was involved giving quinine to the troops and worked with stretcher bearing mules in hill country.

I would love to be able to work out which unit of the RAMC my grandfather served in and to which division(s) he was attached. It has proven difficult. As he was Welsh I thought he would have been attached to one of the ‘Welsh’ divisions. I suspect that my grandfather enlisted in the RAMC in January 1915 at Wrexham Barracks (home of the 23^rd Royal Welch Fusiliers). I have traced enlistment records for 2 people from the same village (Adwy, Coedpoeth, North Wales) who were friends and enrolled as numbers 49174 and 49176 on 11th January 1915 at Wrexham Barracks. Although enrolled in the RAMC and trained at Llandrindod Wells (as part of 4th New Army) both his friends were transferred to the Royal Welch Fusiliers in July 1915. However, having studied the campaigns of the RWF I cannot find a good fit for the limited history I have uncovered

I wonder if he may have been attached to the 10th (Irish) Division which seems to have broadly in the same place and at the same time. If so was he part of the 30th, 31^st or 32^nd FA?

I am intrigued by the possibility that my grandfather may have served briefly in Gallipoli if the medal card reference (2B) can be taken literally. I am also puzzled by the photograph attached as he is apparently wearing a lance corporal’s stripe (but the medal card lists him as a private at the end of the war)

I hope this is of interest for your database and find the photograph interesting. If you have any insights as to the unit, I’d love to know more.

[BJanman]

Hi DJJones

Thank for posting information about your Grandfather. Unfortunately I do not have enough information on the database to work out enlistment location and service number patterns. I can advise that most [not all] of the men with service numbers close to 41970 entered the war in France on 2nd September 1915 so there is a pattern there. I also checked my database on units but was not able to trace a specific unit arriving in the Balkans on the 20th November 1915. Although I do have two other men recorded as arriving on this date, they have totally different service numbers. All this means there is a possibility that your Grandfather was sent over as a reinforcement and would therefore have been posted to any of the medical units already serving out there. I understand your thoughts about your grandfather serving with one of the medical units of the 10th Division. Have you looked through their war diaries at the National Archive? There is a small chance he is mentioned in a war diary because he was wounded. I have checked the information I have about these units [not war diaries] but Stanley Jones is not mentioned.

The best i can do to help is to set up a personal profile on the RAMC database and then add any information I may come across in my own research to his profile. I still have lots of sources to get through, i.e. nominal rolls, personal diaries, names on the back of photographs etc, which he may well be listed on.

Sorry but I cannot see a photograph posted here.

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hi Barbara

I suspect you are right about my grandfather being a reinforcement or replacement for losses. Although I have only looked at a few soldiers who seem to have enlisted around the same time in Wrexham, they do seem to have scattered to the 4 winds. I have a Private Arthur Jones (49168) - not related - who enlisted on 12th January, went to Malta (arrived 11th June 1915) before moving to Salonika with 65 General Hospital in January 1917. Perhaps there was a general need to reinforce losses in Mid 1915?

Apologies for the lack of photograph. I'm new to the site and suffering from technology challenges. I shall try again. Mt grandfather is in the middle row at the end and on the right. I have a better definition photo but am restricted by the size restrictions.

I have not looked at specific unit war diaries in the NA (I live in Scotland so can't get down too often) but will try next time I find an excuse.

Let's see if the attachment works this time?

Hi DJJones

Thank for posting information about your Grandfather. Unfortunately I do not have enough information on the database to work out enlistment location and service number patterns. I can advise that most [not all] of the men with service numbers close to 41970 entered the war in France on 2nd September 1915 so there is a pattern there. I also checked my database on units but was not able to trace a specific unit arriving in the Balkans on the 20th November 1915. Although I do have two other men recorded as arriving on this date, they have totally different service numbers. All this means there is a possibility that your Grandfather was sent over as a reinforcement and would therefore have been posted to any of the medical units already serving out there. I understand your thoughts about your grandfather serving with one of the medical units of the 10th Division. Have you looked through their war diaries at the National Archive? There is a small chance he is mentioned in a war diary because he was wounded. I have checked the information I have about these units [not war diaries] but Stanley Jones is not mentioned.

The best i can do to help is to set up a personal profile on the RAMC database and then add any information I may come across in my own research to his profile. I still have lots of sources to get through, i.e. nominal rolls, personal diaries, names on the back of photographs etc, which he may well be listed on.

Sorry but I cannot see a photograph posted here.

Barbara

[BJanman]

Thank you for posting the photograph.

It seems a bit strange that not all the personnel are wearing the Geneva Red Cross. I wonder if the photograph consists of members of the RAMC and regimental stretcher-bearers. Do you know for certain that your grandfather enlisted into the RAMC and that the Medal Index Card for 49170 Pte Stanley Jones is definitely his? If your grandfather served as a regimental stretcher bearer then he wouldn't have enlisted into the RAMC and this could account for the MIC not stating the rank of Lance Corporal.

Just a thought.

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hi Barbara

I'm 99% confident as we have the medals with the number on the MIC. I've also attached the card itself. I will ask to see if there are any other photographs of him in uniform (my Uncle has some of him in Egypt).

David

Thank you for posting the photograph.

It seems a bit strange that not all the personnel are wearing the Geneva Red Cross. I wonder if the photograph consists of members of the RAMC and regimental stretcher-bearers. Do you know for certain that your grandfather enlisted into the RAMC and that the Medal Index Card for 49170 Pte Stanley Jones is definitely his? If your grandfather served as a regimental stretcher bearer then he wouldn't have enlisted into the RAMC and this could account for the MIC not stating the rank of Lance Corporal.

Just a thought.

Barbara

[BJanman]

Hi Barbara

I'm 99% confident as we have the medals with the number on the MIC.

David

Excellent, thank you for confirming.

This is all a bit confusing because of the details that do not tie up. I also have a concern about the reference to Stanley Jones being wounded and lying in the 4th Canadian Stationery Hospital in Salonika because the information I hold about this hospital is that it was stationed in France and never went to Salonika. The 4th Canadian General Hospital was in Salonika but had moved to Kalamaria in 1916.

I am due a visit to the National Archive so will check the three war diaries for you. It probably won't be for a couple of weeks but I have promised a look up for someone else so am happy to check this out for you. Alternatively, if you would like someone to do a look up sooner then you could try asking in the Look up, Photo and Document requests section.

Barbara

[Myrtle]

Barbara and David

It sounds as if the newspaper may have been incorrect in their details.

You will find the Canadian Hospital Diaries on the following site.CEFSG

Myrtle

[DJJones]

Myrtle, Barbara,

first of all thanks to Barbara for the offer of looking up the war diaries in the NA. That would be great and as it's taken me years to dig out even the most basic scraps of information a few weeks is well worth waiting.

I suspect Myrtle is right about the newspaper reporting accuracy. The text from the paper (Wrexham Advertiser) of 24th February 1917 is "We regret to note that news has arrived to the effect that Pte Stanley Jones RAMC of Heol Offa, Adwy, has been seriously wounded in action. Latest information is that he is lying in 4 Canadian Stationary Hospital in Salonika."

I have noted that some news in the Advertiser was reported months after the event and not always wholly accurate. But I can't slate it too much as the two references found confirm the word of mouth passed down about Salonika and Stanley being wounded.

Many thanks - I appreciate the help.

David

[BJanman]

Hi Maggie and David

Yes I agree about the newspaper, the point is if he was not at the 4th Canadian Stationary Hospital in Salonika then where was he? I'm looking at this objectively so am wondering if the hospital might be correct but the wrong location, or the location is correct but the wrong hospital, or are both location and hospital incorrect.

I agree the information provided from the family indicates the most likely Division to be the 10th Division so I will check out the war diaries and see if they help. I will let you know.

Barbara

[Hywyn]

I have traced enlistment records for 2 people from the same village (Adwy, Coedpoeth, North Wales) who were friends and enrolled as numbers 49174 and 49176 on 11th January 1915 at Wrexham Barracks. Although enrolled in the RAMC and trained at Llandrindod Wells (as part of 4th New Army) both his friends were transferred to the Royal Welch Fusiliers in July 1915. However, having studied the campaigns of the RWF I cannot find a good fit for the limited history I have uncovered

David

I'm not sure what your angle is regarding the RWF.

John Edward Lea, ex49174 RAMC/31067 RWF was killed in action with 8th Battalion in Mesopotamia on 25/1/1917. His papers show he was posted to the 8th Bn 25/10/1915. At that time they were in Gallipoli. Prior to this he was training at Litherland with the 3rd Battalion.

Edward Williams, ex49175 RAMC/31080 RWF is shown as killed place not known with 8th Battalion on 5/1/1916. He was also posted to them on 25/10/1915. He is on Helles Memorial, Gallipoli, having no known grave. The 8th Bn however had left the penisula since 20th Dec.

Can't spot 49176 but 49167 Isaac James Evans stayed as a RAMC man and initially went to No 17 Field Ambulance in France.

31068 Allan Lloyd (MM) enlisted at Llandrindod Wells. He was KIA with 2nd Battalion in France 26/9/1917

31062 Walter Thomas Berry was ex 54764 RAMC. He was with 8th Battalion when he is shown as Died at Sea on 4/12/1915. He is also on Helles, having no known grave.

Hywyn

[DJJones]

Hi Hywyn,

I was brought up in Wrexham which was until the late 60s the garrison town for the 23rd RWF so I always have a passing interest in the regimental history.

However, the angle in the case of my grandfather is that with minimal records available for him and no written evidence apart from the MIC I used indirect evidence to try and find out more about him. The family has a picture of him with two friends together all in uniform. We also knew that both had died and were commemorated on the Coedpoeth war memorial and that one was Edward Williams (49175 - not 49176 (my mistake)). The other we now believe was John Edward Lea.

I did a trawl of people on the Coedpoeth war memorial in ancestry and was struck by the fact that both Edward Williams and John Edward Lea (who were friends with my grandfather) had regimental numbers similar to my grandfather and enlisted in the RAMC on the same day (11th January 1915) in Wrexham. They also both transferred to the RWF on the 2nd June 1915 (and were also absent penalised for being absent from tattoo for the same time period in July - perhaps a consequence of one drink to many prior to being posted overseas).

As they were close friends with my grandfather (John Edward Lea), all lived very close together (J E Lea in the house opposite), all were coalminers and of a similar age it was very seductive to infer that my grandfather had enlisted on the same day. I believe recruiters were targetting the local collieries at the time. Interestingly the Wrexham Advertise for end January 1915 noted with satisfaction that there had been a recent upsurge in volunteers from Coedpoeth, a village that till then had lagged behind others in the area.

A mystery is to why my Grandfather did not transfer to the RAMC in July with his friends. My Father claims that he was told he was too short to go into the regular army!

Of course all the evidence is circumstantial but I think logical. That his friends went to the RWF initially made me think it was logical to assume that my grandfather would have gone with one of the RAMC units attached to the RWF. However, I now suspect this is incorrect as there is limited overlap with the times and locations I've managed to establish (again though the data is scarce).

David

[Hywyn]

Hi David

Thanks. I see now where you're trying to fit it in.

If, in future you are looking for RWF material then there's this (which you probably have)

http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm

and

Regimental Records by Dudley Ward

Vol 3 and Vol 4

Vol 4 is available online

http://www.archive.org/details/regimentalrecord04dudl

It's title says Turkey, Bulgaria and Austria but it also covers Gallipoli, Palestine, Mespotamia and Italy. At the back is the Roll of Honour in Battalion order.

(Vol 3 is France and Flanders)

Hywyn

[BJanman]

first of all thanks to Barbara for the offer of looking up the war diaries in the NA. That would be great and as it's taken me years to dig out even the most basic scraps of information a few weeks is well worth waiting.

David

Hi David

I had a look at the war diaries today but was not able to trace any information on Stanley. I was a bit pushed for time due to having to read through the complete war diary for another Field Ambulance trying to trace an officer who was believed to have taken over as CO in 1915 but as it turns out started in 1918 However I did read back one month in all the diaries of the Field Ambulances in the 10th Division from 24th February 1917. There were diaries for other units attached in the same box and I will go back and search them again soon.

In the meantime, I have set up a personal profile to Stanley on the RAMC database here Can you confirm that the photograph I have scanned is Stanley?

Thanks

Barbara

[DJJones]

Hi David

I had a look at the war diaries today but was not able to trace any information on Stanley. I was a bit pushed for time due to having to read through the complete war diary for another Field Ambulance trying to trace an officer who was believed to have taken over as CO in 1915 but as it turns out started in 1918 However I did read back one month in all the diaries of the Field Ambulances in the 10th Division from 24th February 1917. There were diaries for other units attached in the same box and I will go back and search them again soon.

In the meantime, I have set up a personal profile to Stanley on the RAMC database here Can you confirm that the photograph I have scanned is Stanley?

Thanks

Barbara

Hi Barbara,

many thanks for taking the time and trouble to look at the war diaries for the 10th Division related Field Ambulances. I've been reading up on Salonika and it would appear that early 1917 was relatively quite (which adds to the mystery).

I can confirm that the photo is Stanley Jones. I've attached a Jpeg via your excellent database which may be of use.

I was intrigued by the number of Sergeants in the photograph I posted but note that the relative size of the section and the ranks present is similar to that which could be expected from a tent section of a FA. However, I'm new to RAMC research and could be completely wide of the mark.

We are still planning to talk to the family to see if we can get other pictures that may shed light on Stanley.

Many thanks

David

[Nigel Marshall]

Hello Barbara,

I hope you can use this information in your database. Reg Alvin was one of the men from my home village who went off to war. Fortunately he returned.

Cheers,

Nigel

London Gazette Entries for A. Reginald Alvin

War Office,

21st March, 1918.

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

The undermentioned, from Officer Cadet Units, to be 2nd Lts. 27th Feb. 1918, unless otherwise stated: —

INFANTRY.

York & Lanc. R.

Arthur Reginald Alvin.

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

RESERVE UNITS.

INFANTRY.

The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be

Lts. —

3rd York & Lanc. R.—

27th Aug. 1919.

A.R. Alvin.

Reginald Alvin had previously served as 47886, Private, Royal Army Medical Corps. He was born in Headingley in Leeds on 30 June 1896.

Arthur Reginald Alvin was the oldest of four sons to Louis and Alice Louise Alvin (nee Eyre). There was Arthur Reginald (known as Reginald or Reg) born on 30 June 1896. He was followed by Sydney Louis, born in 1898, then Charles Stanley Alvin and then there was Harold Denis B Alvin who was named only as "Infant" on the 1901 census and given his age as 1 month. This information correlates with the entry for Harold in the births register for the 2^nd quarter of 1901. Louis and Alice married in the 2^nd quarter of 1896 and the marriage has the reference Leeds 9b 926 in the register. He was educated at Cockburn High School, followed by Henderson's Business Training Institute, following which he entered his father's timber business as a clerk.

Reginald Alvin enlisted for the duration of the war on 12^th January 1915 at the age of 19 years and 7 months. His medical examination established that he stood 5'3" tall and weighed in at 101 lbs – a very slight 7 stone, 3 lbs. In addition it was noted that he had lost the end of the big toe of the left foot, but the cause remains a mystery. During Reginald Alvin's service in the ranks he was posted to 6^th Stationary Hospital which was based at Le Havre between December 1914 and May 1916 when it moved to Fillievres in Jun 1916, staying there until August 1918. It was from Fillievres that Reginald Alvin departed to join no. 20 Officer Cadet Battalion.

When Reginald Alvin applied for a commission, his first choice was the West Yorkshire Regiment, however as we have already seen he was commissioned into the York and Lancaster Regiment, a regiment whose recruiting heartland was based in South Yorkshire. The tragically famous battalions of the Barnsley Pals and the Sheffield City Battalion belonged to the York and Lancaster Regiment. At the time of his disembodiment from the Army he was serving attached to the 9^th Battalion of the East Lancashire Regiment which was a service battalion of "Kitchener's Army" raised in Preston from September 1914.

At some stage during the war, his family moved house, from "Rose Villa", which stood at the top end of Main Street, close to the site of the War Memorial, to Scholes Hall, which stood in its own grounds on Main Street between Badger Terrace and The Barleycorn Inn on the opposite side of the road to the church. The Hall occupied the lower portion of the land where the sheltered housing complex is on Belle Vue Road. The row of houses closest to Main Street is roughly where the front of the Hall stood.

After he returned from the war he married Agnes W Hirst in 1923 and they lived in The Avenue, Scholes, until 1928 when they moved to Laneside, Barwick in Elmet. By 1939 they were living at 14 West Park Drive, Roundhay. The 1951 Leeds Telephone Directory shows that Reg and Agnes had moved to Oak Lodge on Street Lane. They had a son, John Peter R Alvin on 27th April 1926 (Q2 Tadcaster 9c 1738). John Alvin died in November 1998.

Reginald Alvin died at his home on Park Lane, Roundhay, Leeds, from Bronchial Cancer on 22 March 1975.

Like his father before him Reginald Alvin had made his living as a timber merchant in the family company called Alvin, Morris & Co. which was based in Black Bull Street, Leeds.

[MickLeeds]

Hello,

I've a few RAMC men to add from my family tree. Here's the first couple, 2 brothers.

Pte WILLIAM HINGERTON (810) RAMC

Born 1879, Roscrea, North Tipperary, Ireland.

Son of Patrick & Mary Hingerton originally from Roscrea, North Tipperary, Ireland but living in Leeds.

In 1911 he was a labourer living at No 39 Tab Street, Bank, Leeds, West Yorkshire.

Landed in France, 20th August, 1914 with 6th Field Ambulance, RAMC.

Drowned at sea 10th April 1917 whilst attached to HMHT Salta. (sunk by enemy mine)

Commemorated on the Salta Memorial, Ste Marie Cemetery, Le Havre, France.

Entitled to 1914 Star + Clasp/Rose/British War Medal/Victory Medal.

http://www.cwgc.org/...asualty=4020249

Pte James Hingerton (471) RAMC

Born 15th Sept 1889, Leeds, West Yorkshire.

Son of Patrick & Mary Hingerton originally from Roscrea, North Tipperary, Ireland, living in Leeds, West Yorkshire.

Labourer of 39 Tab Street, Bank, Leeds, West Yorkshire.

Entitled to British War Medal/Victory Medal.

Emigrated to the United States Of America on the 1st April 1921.

Last address 22-17, 24th Street, Queens, New York, USA.

Pte Patrick Hession (403641) RAMC

Born 1895, Allerton Bywater, West Yorkshire.

Son of Malachi Hession originally from Miltown, Galway, Ireland.

A Colliery Labourer (surface) of 3 Albert Street, Bowers Row, Woodlesford nr Leeds, West Yorkshire.

1st/3rd (West Riding) Field Ambulance, 49th (West Riding) Division.

Killed 5th Dec 1917.

Buried at Menin Road South Military Cemetery, Ypres, Belgium. Plot III. N. 15.

Entitled to BWM/Victory Medal.

http://www.cwgc.org/...?casualty=96341

CWGC entry incorrectly names his father as J Hession.

Panel from Allerton Bywater War Memorial.

Patrick Hession is 2nd from the top beneath his brother Peter Hession (11005) 5th Bn Connaught Rangers, killed Salonika, 22nd Sept 1915.

[BJanman]

Big thanks Nigel and Jotsmee for the above, I have set up profiles and transferred the info straight over. Except for Patrick Hession as he is already listed on the database.

Jotsmee, I am hoping to be visiting Le Havre next month so should be adding a photograph of the Salta Memorial soon.

[BJanman]

many thanks for taking the time and trouble to look at the war diaries for the 10th Division related Field Ambulances. I've been reading up on Salonika and it would appear that early 1917 was relatively quite (which adds to the mystery).

David

David

I noticed from the war diaries that it was quiet, except for the 30th Field Ambulance which was receiving casualties around that time. I thought that was strange and wondered if the 29th Brigade was transferred to assist another Division, or maybe just the Field Ambulance was. I will look into it.

Your picture did not come through but I will contact you directly about it.

Thanks

Barbara

[MickLeeds]

Big thanks Nigel and Jotsmee for the above, I have set up profiles and transferred the info straight over. Except for Patrick Hession as he is already listed on the database.

Jotsmee, I am hoping to be visiting Le Havre next month so should be adding a photograph of the Salta Memorial soon.

Cheers for that,

I've just picked up some more info from your site, that the Hessions brother served with the West Yorks.

Nice one,

Mick.

[Cliff. Hobson]

The following may be of interest to you : Captain W.J.Lawson @ pte O Evers M.M. both enlisted in the 2/3rd West Riding Field Ambulance in September 1914 moved to France 12th-19th April 1915, discharged January 1919.

Both came from the same Village, Whitwell, Derbyshire. Capt., Lawson also served in the Boer War as a medical orderly

[BJanman]

Thanks Cliff

I do have a list of RAMC men attached to the West Riding medical units - a list waiting for me sort through and cross reference with other sources. I have Pte O Evers listed but he is down as serving with the 62nd Divisional HQ Staff and not the 2/3rd West Riding Field Ambulance - maybe he transferred over at some point. I also have a Capt W. E. Lawson (Wilfred Edgar) listed but not a W J Lawson. Wilfred served with the 2/1st West Riding Field Ambulance so I will also have to do a bit of research here as well. As a Captain I should be able to trace more information, i.e. medical achievements at least. I will then add them to the on-line database.

Thanks again

Barbara