Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, Old Owl said:

Hi All,

I am pretty certain that Harold Lewis on the 'new' group photo is much more likely to be 32 rather than 9 as suggested. 

His hair and his IGS'08 medal are my two main reasons--any comments?

Best, Robert

I can see I may have to re-think my numbering of the 1910 image

In the original 1911 picture I've currently got Francis Duncan Irvine, Royal Engineers, recorded as officer number 9 and Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers, recorded as officer number 35.
I've not started to keep track of the suggestions relating to the latest 1910 picture, so could well be mistaken, but I don't think anyone has suggested anything about Lewis. As part of the 1910 intake he should be present.

If I had to guess I would say he is officer number 32 - can I take it that is what you believe as well?

And slotting him into the previous comparison panel \ montage would look roughly chronologically like this -

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

I can see I may have to re-think my numbering of the 1910 image

In the original 1911 picture I've currently got Francis Duncan Irvine, Royal Engineers, recorded as officer number 9 and Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers, recorded as officer number 35.
I've not started to keep track of the suggestions relating to the latest 1910 picture, so could well be mistaken, but I don't think anyone has suggested anything about Lewis. As part of the 1910 intake he should be present.

If I had to guess I would say he is officer number 32 - can I take it that is what you believe as well?

And slotting him into the previous comparison panel \ montage would look roughly chronologically like this -

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Yes I think so.  Nose, jawline, moustache and eyebrows are all a close match.

[PRC]

Looking at the first ten on the 1910-1911 Staff College photo:-

1: Is I believe Number 26 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). One of the 1910 enrolees.  Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919.

2: Is I believe Number 4 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. One of the 1910 enrolees.  He commanded the 11th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War.

3: Not sure there is a match.

4: Not sure there is a match.

5: Believe it’s a different man to the monocled officer in the 1911 picture.

6: Not sure there is a match.

7: Not sure there is a match.

8: Not sure there is a match.

9: Is I believe Number 41 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 enrolees.  Subsequently 2nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18th November 1916 while attached 7th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/186619/t-g-j-torrie/

10. Not sure there is a match.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, PRC said:

Looking at the first ten on the 1910-1911 Staff College photo:-

1: Is I believe Number 26 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). One of the 1910 enrolees.  Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919.

2: Is I believe Number 4 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. One of the 1910 enrolees.  He commanded the 11th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War.

3: Not sure there is a match.

4: Not sure there is a match.

5: Believe it’s a different man to the monocled officer in the 1911 picture.

6: Not sure there is a match.

7: Not sure there is a match.

8: Not sure there is a match.

9: Is I believe Number 41 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 enrolees.  Subsequently 2nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18th November 1916 while attached 7th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/186619/t-g-j-torrie/

10. Not sure there is a match.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Another good job Peter.  All three men with photographs match perfectly. 

[PRC]

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 11-20.

11. Is I believe Number 28 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. One of the 1910 enrolees.

12. Not sure there is a match.

13. Not sure there is a match.

14. Is possibly a match for Number 47 on the 1912 photo, an officer who is currently believed to be either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers. However we now know he is very likely to be a 1910 enrolee, which narrows things down – possibly Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers needs another look.

15: Is I believe Number 25 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Native cavalry? As a 1910 enrolee that shifts the focus to John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) as a possibility.

16. Not sure there is a match.

17. Is I believe Number 45 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs.

There is also a picture of him as GSO2 8th Army Corps with his boss, Lieutenant General Hunter-Weston. It’s from a blog piece on remembering Gallipoli, but it is not clear if the picture was taken there. https://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/page/107/

Picture is stated to be in the Public Domain.

The British Library holds the private diaries of General Hunter Weston. The part covering his time at Gallipoli commanding  the 29th Division and then 8th Corps includes a great number of photographs. His entry for May 17th 1915 records him meeting with the French General Gouraud and has him accompanying picture of them and their staff, with MacMullen being one of only two identified by name. The picture of him with Hunter-Weston sourced from the blog site can also be found there. https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_48364_fs001r#

18. Is I believe Number 27 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar. As a 1910 enrolee that puts John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles and William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles. I have a picture of the latter from later in life which I’ll include for comparison purposes.

19. Is I believe Number 36 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)? As a 1910 enrolee previously unaccounted for I believ that narrows us down to John Cecil Macrae, (19th Punjabis),  Laurence Balfour Cloete, (37th Dogras) and Edgar Claude Kensington, (130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis) – I’ll take the two unaccounted Gurkha Officers out of consideration and we have a contender for Carruthers of the Garwhal Rifles against number 18.

20. Not sure there is a match.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 10 February , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 11-20.

11. Is I believe Number 28 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. One of the 1910 enrolees.

12. Not sure there is a match.

13. Not sure there is a match.

14. Is possibly a match for Number 47 on the 1912 photo, an officer who is currently believed to be either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers. However we now know he is very likely to be a 1910 enrolee, which narrows things down – possibly Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers needs another look.

15: Is I believe Number 25 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Native cavalry? As a 1910 enrolee that shifts the focus to John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) as a possibility.

16. Not sure there is a match.

17. Is I believe Number 45 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs.

There is also a picture of him as GSO2 8th Army Corps with his boss, Lieutenant General Hunter-Weston. It’s from a blog piece on remembering Gallipoli, but it is not clear if the picture was taken there. https://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/page/107/

Picture is stated to be in the Public Domain.

The British Library holds the private diaries of General Hunter Weston. The part covering his time at Gallipoli commanding  the 29th Division and then 8th Corps includes a great number of photographs. His entry for May 17th 1915 records him meeting with the French General Gouraud and has him accompanying picture of them and their staff, with MacMullen being one of only two identified by name. The picture of him with Hunter-Weston sourced from the blog site can also be found there. https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_48364_fs001r#

18. Is I believe Number 27 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar. As a 1910 enrolee that puts John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles and William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles. I have a picture of the latter from later in life which I’ll include for comparison purposes.

19. Is I believe Number 36 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)? As a 1910 enrolee previously unaccounted for I believ that narrows us down to John Cecil Macrae, (19th Punjabis),  Laurence Balfour Cloete, (37th Dogras) and Edgar Claude Kensington, (130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis) – I’ll take the two unaccounted Gurkha Officers out of consideration and we have a contender for Carruthers of the Garwhal Rifles against number 18.

20. Not sure there is a match.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Brilliant work Peter, I think all those comparisons match.

The only aspect I have any doubts about is the two rifles regiments at bottom.  The 9th Gurkhas and 39th Garwhali connection with the Guelphic crown is fine but the other pouch belt badge doesn’t work for the 6th Gurkhas, whose badge was also a Rifle Brigade style wreathed cross.  It must be another Indian rifle regiment.

[PRC]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The only aspect I have any doubts about is the two rifles regiments at bottom.  The 9th Gurkhas and 39th Garwhali connection with the Guelphic crown is fine but the other pouch belt badge doesn’t work for the 6th Gurkhas, whose badge was also a Rifle Brigade style wreathed cross.  It must be another Indian rifle regiment.

I may have got the match for officer 18 from the 1910 picture wrong when I said I thought he was officer 27 from the 1911 Haig picture. Working on the next batch to upload I realised officer 54 from the 1910/11 picture is a better match for officer 27.

I'm still not sure if the older William Campbell Little would have looked like either of the officers from the 1910 picture when he was younger.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I may have got the match for officer 18 from the 1910 picture wrong when I said I thought he was officer 27 from the 1911 Haig picture. Working on the next batch to upload I realised officer 54 from the 1910/11 picture is a better match for officer 27.

I'm still not sure if the older William Campbell Little would have looked like either of the officers from the 1910 picture when he was younger.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes I think 54 and 27 are the same man. Number 18 is the man with varying pouch belt badge, although might be a younger version of the older man at far right.  Just the eyes are a little at variance but not so much that it might not just be naturally induced by age.

 Incidentally we must be careful with the two lancer officers distinguished with white plastron.  One is clearly 17th Lancers (Imperial), but the other might well be 32nd Lancers (Indian).  Their white faced dark blue uniforms were similar, but pouch belts different (prickers for 17th, whistle for 32nd plus a central dividing light).  I enclose two images of a 32nd Lancers British officer.  Griffith apparently attended the staff college at Quetta over the same span as our student lists.

Edited 10 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

On 09/02/2023 at 18:31, PRC said:

However now we have the earlier picture I think the similarities are strong enough to discount it as a passing resemblance brought about by the passage of time. Of course others may see it differently.

Yes this is Theodore Fraser, RE , no doubt.  The only snippet of information I can find on Brevet Colonel Henry Dowrish Drake psc  RM Artillery. CBE. 1854 - 1931, is found in this book. A foot note for chapter 2.  Commissioned 1877, Lt Col 1907 , Brevet Col 1908, retired 1911. Dept of fortifications Greenwich, October 1899 - September 1904. Indian Staff college Deotaki. Awarded 'Humane Society' bronze medal 1892. There may be a picture but the book is only partly available. link; https://books.google.ie/books?id=mwmMDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=LT+COLONEL+Henry+Dowrish+Drake+C+B+E+RMA&source=bl&ots=0J4LvDiWlU&sig=ACfU3U0tb8Hwt7IULWKsnxMHytds5aXJuQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjK1MGRxIv9AhWNY8AKHYl2BIoQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=LT COLONEL Henry Dowrish Drake C B E RMA&f=false

Edited 10 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

21 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Yes this is Theodore Fraser, RE , no doubt.

Thanks Bob - I've got to the stage where I'm juggling so many faces in my head that I start to worry that I'm seeing similarities when maybe there are none.

23 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

There may be a picture but the book is only partly availiable

The introduction includes a note that while the books subject wrote extensive diaries and notes, he had very few photographs - the author explains that rather than use stock photos he lists an introduction to some sources where these can be seen. So not sounding hopeful

Cheers,
Peter

[Old Owl]

On 09/02/2023 at 19:18, PRC said:

I can see I may have to re-think my numbering of the 1910 image

In the original 1911 picture I've currently got Francis Duncan Irvine, Royal Engineers, recorded as officer number 9 and Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers, recorded as officer number 35.
I've not started to keep track of the suggestions relating to the latest 1910 picture, so could well be mistaken, but I don't think anyone has suggested anything about Lewis. As part of the 1910 intake he should be present.

If I had to guess I would say he is officer number 32 - can I take it that is what you believe as well?

And slotting him into the previous comparison panel \ montage would look roughly chronologically like this -

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter.

Indeed that is my take exactly,

Best, Robert

[Bob Davies]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Yes this is Theodore Fraser, RE , no doubt.

Thanks Bob - I've got to the stage where I'm juggling so many faces in my head that I start to worry that I'm seeing similarities when maybe there are none.

4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

There may be a picture but the book is only partly availiable

The introduction includes a note that while the books subject wrote extensive diaries and notes, he had very few photographs - the author explains that rather than use stock photos he lists an introduction to some sources where these can be seen. So not sounding hopeful

Cheers,
Peter

You have and are doing a great job on identifying these Officers Peter. Yes after a while one looses some direction and it all becomes a blurr... I looked for 'Theodore Fraser, RE' from your earlier list. ie before you had done your side by sides (as I had not logged in for a while to see updates) and found him on the portrait gallery site and thought 'Yes that is him!' So we have him for certain. On my attached shot, Sir Douglas Haig being 55,  then 56 unknown then 57  Lt Col Theodore Fraser, RE, then 58 unknown I deduce that one of these men must be 'Brevet Colonel Henry Dowrish Drake psc  RM Artillery' ? All three 56, 57, and 58 wear the same or similar collar badges. Are these Staff Officer badges? and can we deduce from their uniform a Royal Marine Artillery Officer? I would bet on 56 as he holds a high place at the Staff College. George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery being 58, as already supposed. Does a Brevet Colonel wear two pips and a crown on his shoulder? @FROGSMILE if you would oblige please.

Edited 10 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 21-30.

21. Not sure there is a match.

22. Not sure there is a match.

23. Not sure there is a match.

24. Not sure there is a match.

25. Not sure there is a match.

26. Is I believe Number 44 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA

27. Is I believe Number 42 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal.

28. Not sure there is a match.

29. Not sure there is a match.

30. Is I believe Number 15 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

You have and are doing a great job on identifying these Officers Peter. Yes after a while one looses some direction and it all becomes a blurr... I looked for 'Theodore Fraser, RE' from your earlier list. ie before you had done your side by sides (as I had not logged in for a while to see updates) and found him on the portrait gallery site and thought 'Yes that is him!' So we have him for certain. On my attached shot, Sir Douglas Haig being 55,  then 56 unknown then 57  Lt Col Theodore Fraser, RE, then 58 unknown I deduce that one of these men must be 'Brevet Colonel Henry Dowrish Drake psc  RM Artillery' ? All three 56, 57, and 58 wear the same or similar collar badges. Are these Staff Officer badges? and can we deduce from their uniform a Royal Marine Artillery Officer? I would bet on 56 as he holds a high place at the Staff College. George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery being 58, as already supposed. Does a Brevet Colonel wear two pips and a crown on his shoulder? @FROGSMILE if you would oblige please.

The Royal Marines Artillery officer is left as we look with a 3-button cuff and smaller sized buttons.  Apart from that his uniform and even waist belt is very similar to the RA.  As a full colonel a crown and two stars was his rank badge, yes.

[Bob Davies]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Royal Marines Artillery officer is left as we look with a 3-button cuff and smaller sized buttons.  Apart from that his uniform and even waist belt is very similar to the RA.  As a full colonel a crown and two stars was his rank badge, yes.

Thank you FROGSMILE, we could do with another photograph of him to compare but I believe we are justified in our thinking.

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE, we could do with another photograph of him to compare but I believe we are justified in our thinking.

 

He’s the only RMA officer there.  The 3-buttons were a special feature going back to the previous pattern of Royal Marines frock coat.  Army officers had 2-button cuffs.

Edited 10 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 21-30.

21. Not sure there is a match.

22. Not sure there is a match.

23. Not sure there is a match.

24. Not sure there is a match.

25. Not sure there is a match.

26. Is I believe Number 44 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA

27. Is I believe Number 42 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal.

28. Not sure there is a match.

29. Not sure there is a match.

30. Is I believe Number 15 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

All very good matches Peter.  Now I just need to try and identify that rifle styled unit. I’ve just ordered the dress regulations for 1913, as the 1904 aren’t available in hard copy, and the changes between them weren’t too great.

Edited 11 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

. Is I believe Number 15 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure.

I'm not sure if my input will be of any use, but I did see a photo of a Major [1921] of the 52nd Sikhs, Frontier Force. Since no one has mentioned it yet, I'll post it here.

the uniform looks virtually the same.
I might've missed something mentioning this.. but i'm not sure.

Zidane.

Edited 11 February , 2023 by tankengine888

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

I'm not sure if my input will be of any use, but I did see a photo of a Major [1921] of the 52nd Sikhs, Frontier Force. Since no one has mentioned it yet, I'll post it here.

the uniform looks virtually the same.
I might've missed something mentioning this.. but i'm not sure.

Zidane.

Yes they’re similar and that’s been the problem, as 51st, 52nd, 53rd and 54th Sikhs were all part of the Frontier Force (before 1903 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Sikhs) and all wore similar uniforms and pouch belts with badges.  The 53rd’s was a star shape leaving our options either 51st, 52nd, or 54th.  Badges changed slightly with new Royal appellations and in 1922 the unit title’s changed again, so we have a quite tight time window to examine.

The bottom honour scroll of the 52nd pouch badge protrudes more and with ‘swallow tail’ ends (see lowermost photo of ‘Jack’ below) so I think that currently the 51st Sikhs matches more closely than any of the others.  They subsequently became associated with the Prince of Wales and replaced the numerals with his feather plumes.

Edited 11 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

11 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

On my attached shot, Sir Douglas Haig being 55,  then 56 unknown then 57  Lt Col Theodore Fraser, RE, then 58 unknown I deduce that one of these men must be 'Brevet Colonel Henry Dowrish Drake psc  RM Artillery' ? All three 56, 57, and 58 wear the same or similar collar badges. Are these Staff Officer badges? and can we deduce from their uniform a Royal Marine Artillery Officer? I would bet on 56 as he holds a high place at the Staff College.

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Royal Marines Artillery officer is left as we look with a 3-button cuff and smaller sized buttons.  Apart from that his uniform and even waist belt is very similar to the RA.  As a full colonel a crown and two stars was his rank badge

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s the only RMA officer there.  The 3-buttons were a special feature going back to the previous pattern of Royal Marines frock coat.  Army officers had 2-button cuffs.

I was struggling a bit with comparing a potential match for him on the 1910 and 1911 pictures. There is an individual sat on Commandant Cappers' right in the 1910 picture who bears a strong facial resemblance - but entirely different uniform.

One possible boost for the case is whether Royal Marine officers wore their service and gallantry medals over their right breast? The 1910 individual appears to have the full medal, (I'm assuming it's not for sobriety!), while possibly there is just the medal ribbon on the 1911 image but in the same place.

I'm also intrigued by the band over his lower left thigh in the 1910 picture - is that an edging to the jacket? If so I would have thought too high for a frock coat.

I couldn't establish when Drake moved to Quetta Staff College - it was (probably) after the 10th March 1906 when his replacement as Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General at Headquarters was appointed, (London Gazette, May 1, 1906 page 2977). However I'm still a novice when it comes to the Navy List. He had moved on by January 1912 - probably a sign that he wasn't quite so high-up in the hierarchy and was on his way out is that he has been shunted to the other side of Haig on the 1911 picture - if they are the same man.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I was struggling a bit with comparing a potential match for him on the 1910 and 1911 pictures. There is an individual sat on Commandant Cappers' right in the 1910 picture who bears a strong facial resemblance - but entirely different uniform.

One possible boost for the case is whether Royal Marine officers wore their service and gallantry medals over their right breast? The 1910 individual appears to have the full medal, (I'm assuming it's not for sobriety!), while possibly there is just the medal ribbon on the 1911 image but in the same place.

I'm also intrigued by the band over his lower left thigh in the 1910 picture - is that an edging to the jacket? If so I would have thought too high for a frock coat.

I couldn't establish when Drake moved to Quetta Staff College - it was (probably) after the 10th March 1906 when his replacement as Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General at Headquarters was appointed, (London Gazette, May 1, 1906 page 2977). However I'm still a novice when it comes to the Navy List. He had moved on by January 1912 - probably a sign that he wasn't quite so high-up in the hierarchy and was on his way out is that he has been shunted to the other side of Haig on the 1911 picture - if they are the same man.

Cheers,
Peter

Well done Peter, I’m confident that both photos are definitely the same man.  The medals match and an interesting point is that it’s not connected with his corps, but protocol concerning non military awards such as humane society medals.  Quite a number of those who saved others from drowning were awarded such medals just as one example.

Edited 11 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The medals match and an interesting point is that it’s not connected with his corps, but protocol concerning non military awards such as humane society medals.  Quite a number of those who saved others from drowning were awarded such medals just as one example.

Couldn’t find him in the Navy List but looks from a sample Army List that he retired on the 21^st February 1912. No mention of medals. https://archive.org/details/armylistjanpart121919grea/page/1334/mode/2up?q=Dowrish

A biography appeared in the volume of "Who was who" covering 1929-1940, (with my emphasis).

DRAKE, Col. Henry Dowrish, C.B.E. 1918; b 8 Dec.1859;m.1887 Jessie Heatly, d. of Surgeon-General Alfred Crocker. Entered R.M. Artillery, 1877; served in Australia and Western Pacific 1881-85; Assistant to Professor of Fortifications, R.N. College, Greenwich, 1885-87; Staff College, Camberley 1888-89; D.A.A.G.and D.A.A.G. for Instruction, Southern District, 1890-95; medal of the Royal Humane Society for saving life, 1892; Particular Service Squadron, Mediterranean and Channel Fleets, 1896-97; Naval Intelligence Department, Admiralty, 1897-99; Professor of Fortification, R.N. Coll., Greenwich, 1899-1904; D.A.Q.M.G.; Major of General Staff, Directorate of Military Operations, War Office, 1904-06; Directing Staff, Staff College, Deolali and Quetta, India, 1906-1912; General Staff Officer, First Grade; retired, 1912; served in special appointment, War Office, 1914-19. Address: Pilgrims Way, Guildford. Clubs: United Service, Saville.
(Died 13 Nov. 1931.) https://archive.org/details/whowaswho19291940003unse/page/382/mode/2up?q=Dowrish

Another little matching detail that strengthens the case for this being a correct identification – thanks for pointing me in the right direction

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

Couldn’t find him in the Navy List but looks from a sample Army List that he retired on the 21^st February 1912. No mention of medals. https://archive.org/details/armylistjanpart121919grea/page/1334/mode/2up?q=Dowrish

 

A biography appeared in the volume of "Who was who" covering 1929-1940, (with my emphasis).

 

DRAKE, Col. Henry Dowrish, C.B.E. 1918; b 8 Dec.1859;m.1887 Jessie Heatly, d. of Surgeon-General Alfred Crocker. Entered R.M. Artillery, 1877; served in Australia and Western Pacific 1881-85; Assistant to Professor of Fortifications, R.N. College, Greenwich, 1885-87; Staff College, Camberley 1888-89; D.A.A.G.and D.A.A.G. for Instruction, Southern District, 1890-95; medal of the Royal Humane Society for saving life, 1892; Particular Service Squadron, Mediterranean and Channel Fleets, 1896-97; Naval Intelligence Department, Admiralty, 1897-99; Professor of Fortification, R.N. Coll., Greenwich, 1899-1904; D.A.Q.M.G.; Major of General Staff, Directorate of Military Operations, War Office, 1904-06; Directing Staff, Staff College, Deolali and Quetta, India, 1906-1912; General Staff Officer, First Grade; retired, 1912; served in special appointment, War Office, 1914-19. Address: Pilgrims Way, Guildford. Clubs: United Service, Saville.
(Died 13 Nov. 1931.) https://archive.org/details/whowaswho19291940003unse/page/382/mode/2up?q=Dowrish

 

Another little matching detail that strengthens the case for this being a correct identification – thanks for pointing me in the right direction

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Brilliant and painstaking research on your part Peter, that’s him alright.

He was a very experienced staff officer and instructor in staff duties.

Edited 11 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s the only RMA officer there.  The 3-buttons were a special feature going back to the previous pattern of Royal Marines frock coat.  Army officers had 2-button cuffs.

Thank you for that information FROGSMILE. It all adds to us understanding who the Officer is.

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Another little matching detail that strengthens the case for this being a correct identification

Great work Peter, the side by side pics, number 38 1910 and  number 56 1911 are the same man in my eyes, . Your last one from 'Who was Who' certainly decides that you have found the right man.

Edited 11 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

Number 60, 1911 photo. Is this Sir Berkley Vincent, pictured as a Major, temp Lt Col 6th Dragoons 1911? I will need @PRC to work his magic with a side by side please. My attached picture is courtesy of 'National Portrait Gallery'.