Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[mrfrank]

Just started to try and match those remaining with medal entitlements. As we’d already identified the RE officers, thought I’d look at the remaining possible artillery officers. There were three unidentified in the photograph (3, 23 & 26) and conveniently three names in the student list yet to be allocated to a ‘face’. Having looked at their medal entitlements, these are the probables:

#3 - James Farquhar, RFA. (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps).

#23 - Alleyn Charles Rothwell Green, RGA. (No medal entitlement).

#26 - Francis William Loveday, RGA. (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp).

 

[mrfrank]

#14 is also probably Charles Kirkpatrick (no medal entitlement) as I believe the uniform is that of the Corps of Guides (thanks to Frogsmile & PRC). 

Edited 6 February , 2023 by mrfrank

[PRC]

On 03/02/2023 at 19:05, FROGSMILE said:

48: Infantry? Two medals.  Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

Which presumably makes him Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry as he is the only candidate on the list.

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

Which presumably makes him Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry as he is the only candidate on the list.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes, you’d think so. However #48 is clearly wearing the QM with one clasp and KM with two clasps. 
According to the Quarterly AL, FH Stapleton had 3 clasps to his QM….hence my hesitation. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, mrfrank said:

Yes, you’d think so. However #48 is clearly wearing the QM with one clasp and KM with two clasps. 
According to the Quarterly AL, FH Stapleton had 3 clasps to his QM….hence my hesitation. 

Whoever he is he’s definitely OBLI.

[mrfrank]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Whoever he is he’s definitely OBLI.

Then he has to be Stapleton as there’s no other OBLI candidate. I guess he’s either lost two clasps or the AL isn’t infallible. 

[mrfrank]

Using the medal entitlements of those left, then I’d say that #13 would have to be Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwicks. QM+3, KM+2, India Medal+1 (NWF 1897-8)

[mrfrank]

#15 is probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs FF (African General Service Medal+2 clasps)

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, mrfrank said:

#15 is probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs FF (African General Service Medal+2 clasps)

Possibly, that would fit with the pale khaki drab tunic.  He is rifles styled infantry.  The pouch belt badge should help if we can find it.  The facing colour was red.

 

Edited 7 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Suspect #59 is Major Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs. One of only two students of Major rank on the student roll (perhaps why he is promoted to the front row) and appears to be wearing the Egyptian Medal & India Medal+3 clasps (that fits for him) as well as one other medal. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

Suspect #59 is Major Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs. One of only two students of Major rank on the student roll (perhaps why he is promoted to the front row) and appears to be wearing the Egyptian Medal & India Medal+3 clasps (that fits for him) as well as one other medal. 

He’s certainly a Sikh from those qoits on his collar.  The regimental facings look like they’re probably yellow.

Afternote:  35th’s facing colour confirmed, see image below.  Also the insignia, including the plain collar badge (from the NAA collection).

Edited 7 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/02/2023 at 00:14, PRC said:

I tried checking out Hart’s for a few of the names who were students at Quetta in 1911 to see when they first appear subsequently with the p.s.c. notation.

 

Captain Thomas Anselan Pollock-Morris, 1^st Battalion, Highland Light Infantry is not shown as p.s.c. in the 1912 edition. In the 1913 he is shown at the Staff College. Same entry in 1914 https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100748587

 

Captains Basil Edwin Crockett & Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers – both shown in the 1912 edition at Staff College. In 1913 Fisher is still shown as Staff College, but there is no entry for Crockett under 17^th Lancers. On the 1914 edition Bertie Drew Fisher is shown as General Staff Officer, 3^rd Grade, War Office, with effect from the 6^th October 1913 – but not p.s.c. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100744663

 

Captain Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Royal Berkshire Regiment. 1912 edition has him at Staff College. On the 1913 edition he is shown as “p.s.c.”

 

Captain Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment. 1912 edition just has him as 2^nd Battalion. On the 1913 edition he is shown as “p.s.c.”

Reason for checking was to get some sort of steer about the potential Suffolk Regiment man and whether it might be possible to identify him through the entries in Harts , Army Lists, etc, etc.

 

On the 1913 edition of Harts a Captain George Henry Walford of the Suffolk Regiment is shown as being at Staff College since the 23^rd January 1911. But on the 1912 edition as well as Walford there is a Captain Walter Norris Nicholson who was recorded as studying at Staff College since the 22^nd January 1910. On the 1913 edition Walter Norris Nicholson is shown as “p.s.c.” and Deputy Assistant Adjutant and Quarter Master General, South Africa, with effect from the 14^th June 1912. The 1914 edition has Walford with the 2^nd Battalion, but no reference to “p.s.c.”. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100746751

 

Walter Norris Nicholson would go on to write at least two books, one on administrative staff work in the British Army 1914-18, and another on The Suffolk Regiment 1928-1946. Some versions of the later appear to have a picture of him on the front cover, but the images I could find of it were all too low quality to make a comparison. See for example https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Suffolk_Regiment_1928_to_1946.html?id=Ij4DAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

 

So I took another look at George Walford. Major George Henry Walford, p.s.c., Suffolk Regiment, was killed in action at Zonnebeke on the 19^th April 1915. The Imperial War Museum has a photograph and obituary for him. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205390232

 

The latter includes the information that he was gazetted into the Suffolk Regiment after Sandhurst in February 1898. From January 1903 to January 1904 he was on special service with the Somaliland Field Force, receiving the medal with clasp. That should rule out officer number 10, who does not appear to be wearing any medals. But while there is nothing to indicate where he served or attended Staff College, it does go on to note that he was well-known in India and Ceylon as a big game hunter.

 

Here’s the facial comparison. I don’t think they are the same man, but there is just enough there to make me hesitate.

 

 

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Good job, Peter!  It certainly must be one of them.  Like you I see some similarities between the two photos, especially around the jaw line and the hint of a cleft chin, but the eye details don’t seem quite right.

I do find it a fascinating photo, as once again it’s quite full of transitional details.  The end of full dress as they knew it is just a couple of years away.  You get some idea of it’s expense by the fact that there is a Suffolk Regiment officer wearing a pattern of full dress that is obsolete by over a decade.  He is well beyond grandfathers rights, so must have retained it because he is away from regimental duty and was mostly wearing his khaki drill service dress for duty and mess kit for formal dining.  However, he was required to wear Type A full dress for the staff college photograph and had to dig out a tunic from mothballs that he probably hadn’t worn since being a subaltern.

Similarly some of the Indian officers with their pre 1902 higher collars, would almost entirely have been wearing Type B within their units so again the Type A dress was getting a rare airing.  You can perhaps imagine how outdated they might have seen such tedious dress requirements. There had been much complaint in Britain at the turn of the century regarding the expense for an officer kitting out and this played a large part in reducing the bling on uniforms with the modifications to dress regulations promulgated in 1902.

For the Indian officers it was also only in recent memory that they no longer had to join first the Indian Staff Corps, with its own full dress, while waiting for a vacancy so that they could join their preferred Indian unit (this usually took place while they were spending their strictly mandated one year with a British Imperial unit as a form of dual vetting and probation).

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 26/01/2023 at 11:12, mrfrank said:

The names of the students [all Captain rank] present at the Staff College, Quetta at the time the photograph was taken, with positions in the photograph as per PRC’s numbering system in the schematic in post #19:

James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA - 3 probably 

Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA - 26 probably 

Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire - 19

Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs - 40

Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster - 34

John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse)

Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse) - 35

Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs - 45

John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis

Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras

John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles

Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.) - 15

Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers - 28

Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers - 33 or 47 probably 

George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry - 42

Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis

Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers - 4?

Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA - 44

Francis Duncan Irvine, 2nd Queen's Own Sappers & Miners - 9

Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment - 30

Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry - 41

Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs - 16??

William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles

Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Bn 9th Gurkha Rifles - 29

Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery - 46??

 

I’d taken a preview look at the British Newspaper Archive website before going to the library and so knew that I would actually be spoilt for choice when it came to turning up references to the students – the problem would be checking them for images, (or more accurately whether the pictures in the thumbnails related to them or someone else).

So as I was combining a two hour visit with dealing with another GWF generated query, I decided to concentrate on the Indian Staff College side of things, looking for reports of the students. I’ve downloaded in a bit of frenzy and having now had time to check it looks like what I have relates to the names in this batch. The matches are tabulated below, drawn from these reports.

1.February 26, 1910. The Army and Navy Gazette.

Candidates by exam for admission were 16 (plus one for whom there was no vacancy) – all shown by me as E, and 9 candidates by nomination – shown as N.

B.E. Crockett, 17^th Lancers, is shown as a Lieutenant.
Captain H.E.Fleet, R.F.A. passed the exam but there was no vacancy at the college.

2.December 13, 1910. The Civil & Military Gazette.

Report on the Quetta Hunt Team point to point race which took place on the 1^st , including a winning team Staff College Indian Infantry (SCI) – members named.

3: May 11, 1912. The Homeward Mail.

Army Orders for May contains a list of those who have recently graduated from the Staff College, Quetta. (G).

Captain B.E. Crockett is shown as Leicestershire Regiment, (not 17^th Lancers).
Captain William Campbell Little is not shown amongst the graduates.
But Majors Cassalls & Lindsay from the second part of the list are plus a Major C. Robertson, 17^th Lancers.

Struggling to identify Major C. Robertson - no obvious MiC, no long papers in the National Archive catalogue and no candidates in the 1912 edition of Harts.

C

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant work Peter.  

No sign of the Suffolk Regiment fellow is puzzling.

I suspect that Major C. Robertson might have exchanged into the regiment.  This was common if there was no field rank vacancy in his own regiment, but that is purely idle speculation on my part.  Nevertheless, it might be worth checking the other line cavalry regiments if he doesn’t pop up with the 17th at any earlier point (i.e. as a subaltern).

[Matthew B.]

"Struggling to identify Major C. Robertson - no obvious MiC, no long papers in the National Archive catalogue and no candidates in the 1912 edition of Harts."

May I suggest a typo as to Major C. Robertson's regiment - there was, by January 1915 a Major C. Robertson of the 19th Lancers (Indian Army) who has psc after his name.

When I get chance I will do some more digging on this.

Kind regards,

Matthew

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Matthew B. said:

"Struggling to identify Major C. Robertson - no obvious MiC, no long papers in the National Archive catalogue and no candidates in the 1912 edition of Harts."

May I suggest a typo as to Major C. Robertson's regiment - there was, by January 1915 a Major C. Robertson of the 19th Lancers (Indian Army) who has psc after his name.

When I get chance I will do some more digging on this.

Kind regards,

Matthew

Looks like you’ve probably solved it Matthew.  Given how often these Hart’s lists were published I’m sure that typo errors must have been common.

19th Lancers (Fane’s Horse) seems probable.  The regimental pouch belt designs at bottom should aid with identification in the Quetta photo.

NB.  The honour King George’s Own was added between the two world wars. 

 

 

 

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Good job, Peter!  It certainly must be one of them.  Like you I see some similarities between the two photos, especially around the jaw line and the hint of a cleft chin, but the eye details don’t seem quite right.

I do find it a fascinating photo, as once again it’s quite full of transitional details.  The end of full dress as they knew it is just a couple of years away.  You get some idea of it’s expense by the fact that there is a Suffolk Regiment officer wearing a pattern of full dress that is obsolete by over a decade.  He is well beyond grandfathers rights, so must have retained it because he is away from regimental duty and was mostly wearing his khaki drill service dress for duty and mess kit for formal dining.  However, he was required to wear Type A full dress for the staff college photograph and had to dig out a tunic from mothballs that he probably hadn’t worn since being a subaltern.

Similarly some of the Indian officers with their pre 1902 higher collars, would almost entirely have been wearing Type B within their units so again the Type A dress was getting a rare airing.  You can perhaps imagine how outdated they might have seen such outmoded dress requirements. There had been much complaint in Britain at the turn of the century regarding the expense for an officer kitting out and this played a large part in reducing the bling on uniforms with the modifications to dress regulations promulgated in 1902.

For the Indian officers it was also only in recent memory that they no longer had to join first the Indian Staff Corps, with its own full dress, while waiting for a vacancy so that they could join their preferred Indian unit (this usually took place while they were spending their strictly mandated one year with a British Imperial unit as a form of dual vetting and probation).

Unfortunately, both Walford & Nicholson attended the Staff College at Camberley in 1911 and not Quetta.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Unfortunately, both Walford & Nicholson attended the Staff College at Camberley in 1911 and not Quetta.

It’s still a mystery who he is then.

[mrfrank]

It is….all I can think to do is to go back through all the names on the student roll  in the Quarterly AL and see if one of them has an earlier Suffolk Regiment connection. 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

It is….all I can think to do is to go back through all the names on the student roll  in the Quarterly AL and see if one of them has an earlier Suffolk Regiment connection. 

That seems a good plan.

[charlie962]

Following this thread with great interest but not contributed. 

Forgive me if this next has already been dealt with.

This clipping from FindmyPast newspapers 11/3/11 Army & Navy Gazette sets the numbers. 25 each year for a two year course meaning 50 present at any time. Depending on when the 1911 photo was taken it could be the 1910 entry plus either the 1909 or the 1911 entry.. Has account been taken of this? 

As already mentioned the newspapers give details of those qualifying and those graduating each year. Are you happy you have identified the relevant entry years represented in the photo? 

Charlie 

Edit. Graduation list for relevant years, courtesy findmypast.

Graduates 1911 entered 1909

 

Graduates 1912 entered 1910

 

Graduates 1913 entered 1911

Edited 8 February , 2023 by charlie962

[PRC]

17 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

As already mentioned the newspapers give details of those qualifying and those graduating each year. Are you happy you have identified the relevant entry years represented in the photo? 

Good point Charlie - I'm also not sure we have investigated when specifically the picture was taken - after early January 1906 when Braithwaite was appointed would seem to be the earliest it could have been. But the later in the year Haig visited the more likely the 1909 class would have graduated - unless any non-graduates were allowed to extend the studies due to extenuating circumstances.

One slight point specific to the article - seems odd that if they struggled to fill places they gave preference to a nomination instead of one of the individuals who passed the entrance exam. Would be a nice little PHD there about "office politics" and the British Army - it would be interesting to see how far up the geasy pole the nominees got vs those who got into the Staff College through merit, and in particular the sorts of roles each gravitated to.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Another thought. Might the later entry be the back rows of the photo?

[mrfrank]

I did think about this before starting the thread. As stated in the opening post, I’m pretty certain that the photo dates to October 1911 when Haig refers to his visit of inspection in his correspondence of that date. Therefore, I looked at the AL for Oct 1911 for the nominal student roll. Unsurprisingly, it comprised the 1910 & 1911 intakes with the sole exception that VG Menzies from the 09 intake was still there. 
 

Edited 8 February , 2023 by mrfrank

[charlie962]

Then appologies as it's already dealt with. The article was of interest as background though! 

Charlie

Edited 8 February , 2023 by charlie962
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