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Remembered Today:

Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911


mrfrank

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5 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not a problem - I'm building up a little store of known images of the students and staff members that could be in the Quetta College picture but I'm really struggling to make a match.

Nose, ear shape, chin and bottom eyelids seemed potentially matching enough, along with hair colouring and the single medal, to see what others thought.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes, I can understand how time consuming and difficult it must be, I hoped that by offering a comment it might help, as I’ve spent most of my life living cheek by jowl around men in British Army uniform.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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30 minutes ago, Old Owl said:

Although I could be wrong I believe that No 54 could be Harold Lewis and not Douglas Haig as suggested.

Best, Robert

Hi Robert,

Just to clarify your statement - Douglas Haig is down as No.55, so are you saying Harold Lewis is No.55?

Or simply that you believe Harold Lewis is No.54?

Can you point us in the direction of an image of him so that a comparison can be made - given the Army pecking order I would expect the School Commandant or another senior member of the staff to be sat on Douglas Haig's right, (to the left of him as we look at it), rather than a student, but it can't be ruled out.

Cheers,
Peter

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Apologies Peter--I was simply having a senior moment--what I meant was that No54 could be Harold Lewis--and that No55 remains as Douglas Haigh.

Best, Robert

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1 minute ago, Old Owl said:

Apologies Peter--I was simply having a senior moment--what I meant was that No54 could be Harold Lewis--and that No55 remains as Douglas Haigh.

I'll raise your senior moment and see you - I originally thought Douglas Haig was No.56. :)

Cheers,
Peter

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I have a couple of images of Harold Lewis--but posting them on here is beyond my skills!

One comes via the ILN dated 22/7/16 page 110 and the second from The Surrey Herald dated 14/7/16

Hope this helps,

Best, Robert

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9 hours ago, PRC said:

The only pictures I could readily find of William Campbell Little appear to have been taken later in life - probably thirties or later, like the one sourced from here https://ornaverum.org/family/little/little-william-campbell-colonel.html

So on that basis I only very, very tentatively put forward Officer 13 as a possible match.

997826337_WilliamCampbellLittlepossiblepanel1.png.1eecbb936c8419b1688835a57a435e91.png
(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Officer 13 was a well decorated soldier already - at least three medals although the individual standing in front of him blocks much of our view so there could have been more. And by the time the later picture of William was taken his medal ribbons are:-

1842742818_william-campbelllittlesourcedornaverumorgmedalribboncrop.jpg.b4229940e58ee0178bf757fd1889ea50.jpg (Image rights remain with the current owner).

So the question is does the medal entitlement for William Campbell Little at the time the Quetta Staff College picture was taken in 1911, even just in terms of quantity, match those on display by Officer 13?

Cheers,
Peter

I agree #13 did seem the likeliest for William Campbell Little from that image. However, the 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. In addition to the fact that #13 appears not to be wearing that ribbon/medal, he also seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. 

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2 hours ago, Old Owl said:

One comes via the ILN dated 22/7/16 page 110 and the second from The Surrey Herald dated 14/7/16

Thanks Robert,

Hopefully someone on the forum with subscription access to the British Newspaper Archive, either directly or via the appropriate level of subscription to FindMyPast \Ancestry can check it out - certainly the Illustrated London News is there, although I was only finding the Surrey Advertiser, not the Surrey Herald, and neither came up on a search for Lewis.

If not, Mrs C permitting, I will womble into the local public library later in the week to see what I can turn up for him and any of the others that remain outstanding.

Cheers,
Peter

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9 hours ago, PRC said:

The only pictures I could readily find of William Campbell Little appear to have been taken later in life - probably thirties or later, like the one sourced from here https://ornaverum.org/family/little/little-william-campbell-colonel.html

So on that basis I only very, very tentatively put forward Officer 13 as a possible match.

997826337_WilliamCampbellLittlepossiblepanel1.png.1eecbb936c8419b1688835a57a435e91.png
(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Officer 13 was a well decorated soldier already - at least three medals although the individual standing in front of him blocks much of our view so there could have been more. And by the time the later picture of William was taken his medal ribbons are:-

1842742818_william-campbelllittlesourcedornaverumorgmedalribboncrop.jpg.b4229940e58ee0178bf757fd1889ea50.jpg (Image rights remain with the current owner).

So the question is does the medal entitlement for William Campbell Little at the time the Quetta Staff College picture was taken in 1911, even just in terms of quantity, match those on display by Officer 13?

Cheers,
Peter

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

There were three Gurkha officers believed to be present with Henry Clare Duncan, of the 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles, believed to be the owner of the picture and identified as Officer 29 in the picture. I've just added a tentative identification of the second, William Campbell Little, as Officer 13. William Little has much of his uniform obscured. Looking at the uniform of Henry Duncan, the only other anything like it is Officer 27.

The Imperial War Museum has a picture of Alexander Bertram Lindsay in civvies - he retired pre-war on health grounds but returned to work in the War Office: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205384584

However the associated biography has him decorated for service on the N.W. Frontier of India 1897-98, (medal and two clasps), Tirah 1898, (clasp), and N.E. Frontier of India 1911-12, (medal and clasps, mention in despatches, brevet-colonel).

So while Officer 27 may potentially be the only Gurkha Officer unaccounted for, and there is a certain resemblance to Alexander Lindsay, the absense of medals is a bit of a question mark.

1610702080_AlexanderLindsaypossiblematchv1.png.1f3d7baab88c70997dde6afa4d53521b.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Again, a good resemblance to #27. There’s the problem you point out as to his lack of medals when he was a decorated officer. There’s also another problem in that he’s one of only two Majors on the student roll. #27 is clearly wearing Captain rank. Everyone behind the front row appears to be of Captain rank. The only Major I can see is probably #59 and as he’s on the front row there’s the possibility he’s not even a student, but part of the visiting delegation. 
 

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6 hours ago, PRC said:

The Imperial War Museum has a picture of Lieutenant Colonel Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers, date of death unknown. Although their caption doesn't date the picture, in a picture of the reverse it says it was purchased February 1918. That date would severely restrict the Great War service medal ribbons that could be on display. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205294699

My best guess is Officer 16 in the Quetta Staff College picture.

602983868_BertieDrewFisherpossiblematchv1.png.10f070aa2b34d5a43349c30818e8ac81.png
(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Sorry to be the bearer of further bad news, but I don’t think #16 can be Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers. He was entitled to the QM+3 clasps & KM+2 clasps and #16 appears to be wearing neither.

A better candidate would be #49 who appears to be wearing Lancer uniform as well as the correct medal combination. Just need someone better placed to confirm that’s the uniform of the 17th Lancers. 
There are two 17th Lancer students, Fisher & Crockett. #4 appears to be wearing the same uniform. 

 

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22 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Sorry to be the bearer of further bad news, but I don’t think #16 can be Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers. He was entitled to the QM+3 clasps & KM+2 clasps and #16 appears to be wearing neither.

A better candidate would be #49 who appears to be wearing Lancer uniform as well as the correct medal combination. Just need someone better placed to confirm that’s the uniform of the 17th Lancers. 
There are two 17th Lancer students, Fisher & Crockett. #4 appears to be wearing the same uniform. 

 

Yes, 49 is indeed wearing the uniform of 17th DCO Lancers.  They were the only British lancer regiment with a pure white plastron to the front of their tunic.  Interestingly it was Haig’s regiment in 1903.

2E71D3A9-EE81-4DC2-999C-64B56FF1FC55.jpeg

49D40DCE-A478-45FF-9DC4-25CDF1704A0F.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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#8 could possibly be Claude Hamilton Griffith Black. Certain likeness to on-line National Portrait Gallery image taken in the early 30s. 
However, that would make the uniform that of the 34th Prince Albert Victor’s Poona Horse. CHG Black had no medal entitlement and that tallies with #8. 

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24 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Sorry to be the bearer of further bad news, but I don’t think #16 can be Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers. He was entitled to the QM+3 clasps & KM+2 clasps and #16 appears to be wearing neither.

No need to be sorry :) - I'm simply putting up straw men to be knocked down or fleshed out as appropriate. When I say it's my best guess I mean exactly that - I know very, very little about uniforms and medals!

25 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

A better candidate would be #49 who appears to be wearing Lancer uniform as well as the correct medal combination. Just need someone better placed to confirm that’s the uniform of the 17th Lancers. 

So we think this might be a matching pair.

937004684_BertieDrewFisherpossiblematchv2.png.c798943145484330c4d21e2255b8a630.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Leaving Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers as the match for number 4.

Cheers,
Peter

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6 minutes ago, PRC said:

No need to be sorry :) - I'm simply putting up straw men to be knocked down or fleshed out as appropriate. When I say it's my best guess I mean exactly that - I know very, very little about uniforms and medals!

So we think this might be a matching pair.

937004684_BertieDrewFisherpossiblematchv2.png.c798943145484330c4d21e2255b8a630.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Leaving Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers as the match for number 4.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes, I think they match.

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18 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

#8 could possibly be Claude Hamilton Griffith Black. Certain likeness to on-line National Portrait Gallery image taken in the early 30s. 
However, that would make the uniform that of the 34th Prince Albert Victor’s Poona Horse. CHG Black had no medal entitlement and that tallies with #8. 

One for @FROGSMILE  - number 8 was the officer you were very confident was 5th Bombay Cavalry.

Cheers,
Peter

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1 hour ago, PRC said:

One for @FROGSMILE  - number 8 was the officer you were very confident was 5th Bombay Cavalry.

Cheers,
Peter

I will check his regiment again tomorrow in case I made a mistake, but I did a thorough examination and if you scrutinise the photos that I posted for comparison I’d be interested to hear of any discrepancies that anyone can see. I suppose it’s possible that he might have transferred.

Below are two British officers of the 34th Poona Horse around that same period.  The pouch belt is very similar, but the jury’s out with regard to the pagri design.  Note also the regimental Austrian knot cuff embellishment and how it protrudes from the gauntlet’s often worn in that period.  The officer in your photo has a pointed, Lancer style cuff.

3FCCC89A-E1F1-43DF-96F7-2DE0BA2E4A12.jpeg

18EC812B-F39E-443E-AC89-B837EF381473.jpeg

 

5C0CC3CC-4285-4F46-9AE2-4A04BBFF5548.jpeg

D04BC30E-13B0-4F8F-939D-93D93E069755.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 26/01/2023 at 11:56, mrfrank said:

Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis

The Europeans in Africa website has what I think is a painting rather than a colourised photograph of Charles McGregor Withers. https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=22597

I'll stand him up as a possible match for Officer 13, (the head at the top of the crop from the Quetta School picture), but the reality is that I'm not at all sure that Charles Withers is even present.

1211963429_CharlesMcGregorWitherspossiblepanelv1.png.24fd22ada0c7f286724a33583582ee71.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

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1 minute ago, PRC said:

The Europeans in Africa website has what I think is a painting rather than a colourised photograph of Charles McGregor Withers. https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=22597

I'll stand him up as a possible match for Officer 13, (the head at the top of the crop from the Quetta School picture), but the reality is that I'm not at all sure that Charles Withers is even present.

1211963429_CharlesMcGregorWitherspossiblepanelv1.png.24fd22ada0c7f286724a33583582ee71.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

I don’t think these two match, Peter.

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16 hours ago, PRC said:

The Europeans in Africa website has what I think is a painting rather than a colourised photograph of Charles McGregor Withers. https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=22597

I'll stand him up as a possible match for Officer 13, (the head at the top of the crop from the Quetta School picture), but the reality is that I'm not at all sure that Charles Withers is even present.

1211963429_CharlesMcGregorWitherspossiblepanelv1.png.24fd22ada0c7f286724a33583582ee71.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Agree that he’s not a match for #13.

Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps (medal to the left that he’s wearing in the image above). 
Only #52 would appear to be a possible match , but the ribbon isn’t very clear on the photo.

 

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19 hours ago, mrfrank said:

There are two 17th Lancer students, Fisher & Crockett. #4 appears to be wearing the same uniform. 

Just updating the list when I notice there was also a Gilbert Robert Cassells, 17th Lancers, in your list of students. So Number 4 could be Crockett or Cassells, or indeed if we start to accept that this picture doesn't reflect all the students listed at the college, for whatever reason, then introduces the possibility that it could be another individual entirely. Or one or more of the 17th Lancers wasn't wearing regiment dress .:(

Potentially always a problem with these unnamed pictures and reduces confidence in the previous identifications - only Richard Hope Waller would remain a definate, (assuming the IWM have identified him correctly).

Peter

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2 minutes ago, PRC said:

Just updating the list when I notice there was also a Gilbert Robert Cassells, 17th Lancers, in your list of students. So Number 4 could be Crockett or Cassells, or indeed if we start to accept that this picture doesn't reflect all the students listed at the college, for whatever reason, then introduces the possibility that it could be another individual entirely. Or one or more of the 17th Lancers wasn't wearing regiment dress .:(

Potentially always a problem with these unnamed pictures and reduces confidence in the previous identifications - only Richard Hope Waller would remain a definate, (assuming the IWM have identified him correctly).

Peter

Sorry Peter, Cassells was another copying error on my part that I corrected in the list of students. Cassells was 35th Sikhs.
Definitely, the two 17th Lancers listed……Drew & Crockett. 

 

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On 26/01/2023 at 19:32, mrfrank said:

Harold Lewis of the 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse) was killed in action with 20th Manchesters on 1st July 1916. I can only find a side on image that isn’t much help. Any ideas on an ident from the regimental  uniform? He was awarded the NW Frontier of India 1908 medal plus clasp for operations in the Zakka Khel country. 

Just revisited the image of Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse) and I’m now pretty sure that he’s #35 in the image. The uniform and NW Frontier of India medal+clasp fits. The National Army Museum have an on-line image of the officers of the 37th Lancers that they date to c.1910. The chap back row 2nd from left in that image also strongly resembles #35. 

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On 28/01/2023 at 10:44, mrfrank said:

#42 appears to be sporting collar badges in the form of ‘crossed katars’ the traditional Rajput dagger. Not sure though if it was only the 13th Rajputs that wore this badge. 
 

Seems the ‘crossed katars’ is the regimental badge of the 122nd Rajputana Infantry. Therefore, George Hutchison is now the likeliest candidate for #42. He was entitled to the China 1900 Medal. #42 is wearing a single medal (no clasp), but difficult to confirm ribbon. 
 

Having looked at the Rajput officers, it would seem that the likeliest, tentative candidate for #16 is CRF Seymour, 13th Rajputs purely on the grounds that he is the only one in the photo wearing his entitlement to the QM+4 clasps. 

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35 is indeed Harold Lewis--the numbers look more like 55 on my screen or could it be my eyes :rolleyes: Yes, I think it is my eyes!!

I have his medals and so researched him many years ago.

Robert

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1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

Just revisited the image of Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse) and I’m now pretty sure that he’s #35 in the image. The uniform and NW Frontier of India medal+clasp fits. The National Army Museum have an on-line image of the officers of the 37th Lancers that they date to c.1910. The chap back row 2nd from left in that image also strongly resembles #35. 

The group shot of the British and Indian Officers of the 37th Lancers was one of a very similar number of dead-ends I've been down over the last few days,  - groups of un-named individuals with several whose faces look like they could be present in the Quetta Staff College picture. Some of them date to the opening months of the Great War, but the individual concerned may not be present - their MiC's record they carried out a Staff role at some point during the war. So very glad you and @Old Owl are familiar with Harold Lewis.

So combining the suggested individual from the picture on the National Army Museum website https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1973-04-12-2-12
with the picture from the Illustrated London News that has been used on the Lives of the First World War website https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5466186
along with a crop of officer 35 gives this comparison:-

1438810217_HaroldLewispossiblematchesv1.png.5e515ba6eaa83cb414a154e5b963fc55.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

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