Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[PRC]

Captain William Henry Bartholomew (1877-1962), Royal Artillery.
1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC for a Brigadier General William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery. Landed France 14th August 1914 as Major and G.S.O. 3, General Headquarters, 1st Echelon).

Possible match Officer 8. No wavy line to the pouch belt so with the collar badges I’m assuming Royal Artillery.

Picture sources

1920 – sourced National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw97034/Sir-William-Henry-Bartholomew?LinkID=mp81025&role=sit&rNo=0

1934 – sourced National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw109344/Sir-William-Henry-Bartholomew?LinkID=mp81025&role=sit&rNo=1

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Captain William Henry Bartholomew (1877-1962), Royal Artillery.
1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC for a Brigadier General William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery. Landed France 14th August 1914 as Major and G.S.O. 3, General Headquarters, 1st Echelon).

Possible match Officer 8. No wavy line to the pouch belt so with the collar badges I’m assuming Royal Artillery.

Picture sources

1920 – sourced National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw97034/Sir-William-Henry-Bartholomew?LinkID=mp81025&role=sit&rNo=0

1934 – sourced National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw109344/Sir-William-Henry-Bartholomew?LinkID=mp81025&role=sit&rNo=1

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Another strike Peter, all three images of same man I think.  And yes, definitely Royal Artillery of some nature.

Edited 16 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

We have Alfred Charles Samuel Burden Ellis on the 1908 Harts list. He is listed as 'Unattached list' and 121 Pioneers. 2 Lt.  12 year service.  Born 9th June 1876. I am looking into him further but saw your post Peter and thought to say before anyone went off down another rabbit hole. Cheers, Bob. I'll be back! Edit 2; Here we have Captain Ellis,  1911 harts Army list. 121 Pioneers. Staff College. Scarlet with white facing. @FROGSMILE  Edit; Also in the 1910 Harts list. Courtesy nat lib Scotland https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100785273

It seems possible, especially given the name linked to that regiment.  The question is did they wear the same collar badges.  Here is another similar regiment, the 107th Pioneers, which also had white facings, but does not seem to have favoured any collar insignia at all.  More research needed to confirm.

Edited 16 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Captain Walter Joseph Maxwell-Scott, (1875-1954) Scottish Rifles.

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC - Brig.Gen Walter Joseph Maxwell- Scott ex Scottish Rifles – also recorded as Major General Sir Walter J. Constable-Maxwell-Scott)

Was struggling to find a match – the nearest seemed to be Officer 22, but he appeared to be wearing a Native Infantry Officers’ uniform and his four medals seemed to be more than I expected for “just” a Boer War veteran. I checked Harts for 1908, (the year before he entered) and nothing to suggest he was attached \ seconded to an Indian Army Regiment. The 1911 Harts records him as studying at the Staff College, India.

So I tried looking for a sample of the kind of uniform an officer of the Scots Rifles wore in this era and came across this example.

Which was posted in this Great War Forum thread by one @FROGSMILE

Now I’m not so sure I should have been so swift to discount Officer 22. It’s difficult to make out but I think that Officer 22 is holding a Wolseley helmet with a (probably) black hackle, as described in that thread.

Picture sources

Uniformed Headshot undated from the National Portrait Gallery – catalogued as 1914-18 but I think the medal ribbons on display shows it was later. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw18990
Also on Wikipedia where the same image is stated to be in the Public Domain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Walter_Constable-Maxwell-Scott,_1st_Baronet#/media/File:Sir_Walter_Joseph_Constable_Maxwell-Scott,_1st_Bt.png

Wikipedia page for Major General Sir Walter Joseph Constable Maxwell-Scott here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Walter_Constable-Maxwell-Scott,_1st_Baronet

Undated painting in Generals uniform https://www.scottsabbotsford.com/history/the-descendants-of-sir-walter-scott/major-general-sir-walter-maxwell-scott

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, PRC said:

Captain Walter Joseph Maxwell-Scott, (1875-1954) Scottish Rifles.

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC - Brig.Gen Walter Joseph Maxwell- Scott ex Scottish Rifles – also recorded as Major General Sir Walter J. Constable-Maxwell-Scott)

Was struggling to find a match – the nearest seemed to be Officer 22, but he appeared to be wearing a Native Infantry Officers’ uniform and his four medals seemed to be more than I expected for “just” a Boer War veteran. I checked Harts for 1908, (the year before he entered) and nothing to suggest he was attached \ seconded to an Indian Army Regiment. The 1911 Harts records him as studying at the Staff College, India.

So I tried looking for a sample of the kind of uniform an officer of the Scots Rifles wore in this era and came across this example.

Which was posted in this Great War Forum thread by one @FROGSMILE

Now I’m not so sure I should have been so swift to discount Officer 22. It’s difficult to make out but I think that Officer 22 is holding a Wolseley helmet with a (probably) black hackle, as described in that thread.

Picture sources

Uniformed Headshot undated from the National Portrait Gallery – catalogued as 1914-18 but I think the medal ribbons on display shows it was later. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw18990
Also on Wikipedia where the same image is stated to be in the Public Domain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Walter_Constable-Maxwell-Scott,_1st_Baronet#/media/File:Sir_Walter_Joseph_Constable_Maxwell-Scott,_1st_Bt.png

Wikipedia page for Major General Sir Walter Joseph Constable Maxwell-Scott here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Walter_Constable-Maxwell-Scott,_1st_Baronet

Undated painting in Generals uniform https://www.scottsabbotsford.com/history/the-descendants-of-sir-walter-scott/major-general-sir-walter-maxwell-scott

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Well done again Peter, you’ve got him alright, #22 is definitely an officer of the  Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) and distinguished as such by the uniform details that you’ve pointed out from a previous thread.   The shape of his pouch belt badge is also a corroborating feature.

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Captain Walter Joseph Maxwell-Scott, (1875-1954) Scottish Rifles.

Fantastic work Peter, I am redundant Next I looked for Captain D G Ridgeway  on Harts lists. This gives us Captain David Graeme Ridgeway. 2nd Battalion. Dark green uniform with black facings. (Lahore Div) From the 1914 Hart's Lists, courtesy Nat Lib Scotland.

Edited 17 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

Captain Bertram Hewett Hunter Cooke (1874-1946), Rifle Brigade.

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC - Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, C.M.G & D.S.O. Numerous staff positions listed on MiC.) Served with the RAF from its founding. https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Cooke_B.htm

I wasn’t sure about the facial match for my potential candidate, Officer 35, as any facial comparison was with an undated picture.

So to increase my confidence I did a pouch belt \ badge comparison with a 1904 picture of a Rifle Brigade Captain that I found online. I’ve cropped to include the Wolseley helmet of Officer 35 in case that provides any more clues

Picture source

Rifle Brigade Captain 1st October 1904. Captain Christopher D'Arcy Bloomfield Saltern Baker-Carr (1878-1949); entered Rifle Brigade 1898; Captain Rifle Brigade 1902-1906.
(Right hand soldier). http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/stevesuniforms/riflecorps.html

The facial match is more possible rather than probable, and could definitely do with a higher resolution image to begin with. Medals are looking very comparable. The full comparison picture is captioned Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, but I believe this is still showing him as a Captain.

Picture source

There is a picture of him in this old GWF thread posted by member @stiletto_33853, although the source is not specifically mentioned. The thread dates from 2005 so all the other images referred to have ceased to be available.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Fantastic work Peter, I am redundant Next I looked for Captain D G Ridgeway  on Harts lists. This gives us Captain David Graeme Ridgeway. From the 1914 Hart's Lists, courtesy Nat Lib Scotland.

These photos might help to confirm 3rd (Queen Alexandra’s Own) Gurkha Rifles.

 

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Captain Bertram Hewett Hunter Cooke (1874-1946), Rifle Brigade.

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC - Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, C.M.G & D.S.O. Numerous staff positions listed on MiC.) Served with the RAF from its founding. https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Cooke_B.htm

I wasn’t sure about the facial match for my potential candidate, Officer 35, as any facial comparison was with an undated picture.

So to increase my confidence I did a pouch belt \ badge comparison with a 1904 picture of a Rifle Brigade Captain that I found online. I’ve cropped to include the Wolseley helmet of Officer 35 in case that provides any more clues

Picture source

Rifle Brigade Captain 1st October 1904. Captain Christopher D'Arcy Bloomfield Saltern Baker-Carr (1878-1949); entered Rifle Brigade 1898; Captain Rifle Brigade 1902-1906.
(Right hand soldier). http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/stevesuniforms/riflecorps.html

The facial match is more possible rather than probable, and could definitely do with a higher resolution image to begin with. Medals are looking very comparable. The full comparison picture is captioned Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, but I believe this is still showing him as a Captain.

Picture source

There is a picture of him in this old GWF thread posted by member @stiletto_33853, although the source is not specifically mentioned. The thread dates from 2005 so all the other images referred to have ceased to be available.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

I think you’ve got him, Peter.  The square jawline and slightly protruding ears match in both photos, as does the uniform.  The Rifle Brigade favoured an unusual and elegant pagri wrapped around their Wolseley helmet distinguished by equal but diagonal black and dark green stripes.

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

These photos might help to confirm 3rd (Queen Alexandra’s Own) Gurkha Rifles.

Thanks FROGSMILE. I would say number 3 could well be D G Ridgeway, as no collar badges to be seen and the position of his signature at the top of the photo. Number 50 has crossed kukris on his black helmet, also collar badges.

Edited 17 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[stiletto_33853]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Captain Bertram Hewett Hunter Cooke (1874-1946), Rifle Brigade.

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

(MiC - Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, C.M.G & D.S.O. Numerous staff positions listed on MiC.) Served with the RAF from its founding. https://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Cooke_B.htm

I wasn’t sure about the facial match for my potential candidate, Officer 35, as any facial comparison was with an undated picture.

So to increase my confidence I did a pouch belt \ badge comparison with a 1904 picture of a Rifle Brigade Captain that I found online. I’ve cropped to include the Wolseley helmet of Officer 35 in case that provides any more clues

Picture source

Rifle Brigade Captain 1st October 1904. Captain Christopher D'Arcy Bloomfield Saltern Baker-Carr (1878-1949); entered Rifle Brigade 1898; Captain Rifle Brigade 1902-1906.
(Right hand soldier). http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/stevesuniforms/riflecorps.html

The facial match is more possible rather than probable, and could definitely do with a higher resolution image to begin with. Medals are looking very comparable. The full comparison picture is captioned Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, but I believe this is still showing him as a Captain.

Picture source

There is a picture of him in this old GWF thread posted by member @stiletto_33853, although the source is not specifically mentioned. The thread dates from 2005 so all the other images referred to have ceased to be available.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Peter,

Source is the 1946 Rifle Brigade Chronicle. I placed his bio on the previous highlighted thread, but here is his obituary

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I would say number 3 could well be D G Ridgeway, as no collar badges to be seen and the position of his signature at the top of the photo.

The 1909 intake included two officers shown as 3rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles - Captain David Graeme Ridgeway and Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, so uniform identification may not be enough alone, (although it does mean we might be able to use it to pick out the second officer similarly uniformed).

I haven't looked into how closely the signatures align to position on the picture - that is going to be unique to this picture, so would need to worked on before using it as an indicator.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

19 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Source is the 1946 Rifle Brigade Chronicle. I placed his bio on the previous highlighted thread, but here is his obituary

Thanks for confirming the source

I see from the obituary that he would have received the Queens Medal and the Khedive star for the Sudan campaign, which along with the Boer War pair probably accounts for the four medals on display in the 1910 Quetta Staff College picture - unless that is a trick of the light.

The picture in the 1946 Rifle Brigade Chronicle I think shows him as a Captain, and possibly with three medals, but again that could be a trick of the light \ way the cords and pouch belt lie across his chest.

Just trying to get a feel for the chronological order in which the two images might have been taken.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 17 February , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Thanks FROGSMILE. I would say number 3 could well be D G Ridgeway, as no collar badges to be seen and the position of his signature at the top of the photo. Number 50 has crossed kukris on his black helmet, also collar badges.

I’m not so sure unfortunately, Bob, as you can see a dark backing behind the pouch badge, whereas on the example image I posted you cannot.  I’ve not researched to see when the 3rd received their Queen Alexandra’s appellation, but once they did it became a dominating feature of their insignia.  Cleverly, her cypher appeared separately with crown atop.  It was then used separately to, e.g. surmount the pouch belt badge, as a badge on the pouch itself, and as an officers cap badge.  The latter meant no kukris on their undress cap, similarly to the 2nd Gurkhas and their Prince of Wales’s feathers.  Hard for us to appreciate now, but back then it was all about vying for Royal favour.  However, as unit titles changed with these honorifics added, then the insignia could change in design quite significantly, so it’s all about what the title was then and how recently it had changed (in the early transition some officers would often have an older pattern badge, but younger officers the new one).  Given the absence of obvious Gurkha insignia we must be careful not to rule out other rifle green clad regiments such as, e.g. Wellesleys Rifles.  There were several, not everyone wore Drab.

As regards #50, it needs research as to the the style of insignia, but it looks as if he might be 6th, or 9th Gurkhas, going by the badge on his helmet.  Each of the ten Gurkha regiments had its own cap badge design and some eschewed kukris (sometimes just the officers) to be different, but for a majority it did feature as a principal part of their badge.  A few had just a single kukri, but a majority favoured two, crossed.  To inject variation some favoured blade edge outwards and some blade edge inwards.    Squinting at #50 he seems to be edge inward which is what leads me to think either 6th or 9th**, but establishing their preference or not for a collar badge and cross referencing with pouch belts will be necessary to be sure of an identification.  My personal bet would be on the 6th.

**the 8th also favoured a crossed pair with blade edge inward too, but their pouch badge was a star, rather than cross shaped.

NB.  The photo of badges below shows the original ten regiments, and the engineers and signals.

Afternote:  I have subsequently confirmed that the 9th Gurkhas did not wear collar badges with full dress.

 

 

 

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And this shows the 9th pouch belt plate (for before AND during our period - note Guelphic crown changed to Tudor (King’s) crown), cap badge for comparison with the 6th, and absence of collar badges.  

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

Just now, PRC said:

The 1909 intake included two officers shown as 3rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles - Captain David Graeme Ridgeway and Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, so uniform identification may not be enough alone, (although it does mean we might be able to use it to pick out the second officer similarly uniformed).

I haven't looked into how closely the signatures align to position on the picture - that is going to be unique to this picture, so would need to worked on before using it as an indicator.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter, here is Brigadier Ridgeway DSO, he died in Kenya 1950. Wearing medals and  'tunic' that we need. His father, Frederick Edward Ridgeway was the Bishop of Kensington 1911 Census. Quite a lot about him on line, may lead us to a better picture of his son?  Link; https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/default.asp?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=5143

Edited 17 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Thanks Peter, here is Brigadier Ridgeway DSO, he died in Kenya 1950. Wearing medals and  'tunic' that we need. His father, Frederick Edward Ridgeway was the Bishop of Kensington 1911 Census. Quite a lot about him on line, may lead us to a better picture of his son?  Link; https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/default.asp?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=5143

That’s not a tunic, Bob, but a mess dress jacket in regimental pattern (although the majority of rifles followed a similar design).

[Bob Davies]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

That’s not a tunic, Bob, but a mess dress jacket in regimental pattern (although the majority of rifles followed a similar design).

I appreciate your correction FROGSMILE. 'Call it what it is, not what it isn't!'  Is it the same jacket as they are wearing in the OP photos?

 

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not so sure unfortunately, Bob, as you can see a dark backing behind the pouch badge, whereas on the example image I posted you cannot.

Yes I see this now, sometimes it takes a while  for things to sink in, thanks for all the pictures and information you have posted regarding this.

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I appreciate your correction FROGSMILE. 'Call it what it is, not what it isn't!'  Is it the same jacket as they are wearing in the OP photos?

 

Yes I see this now, sometimes it takes a while  for things to sink in, thanks for all the pictures and information you have posted regarding this.

No Bob, the OP photo shows each officer not in native dress wearing a ‘tunic’, which in the British, Dominion, and Colonial forces, was traditionally the designation of the best quality upper garment reserved for review order, levees (Royal audiences) and official duty including formal guard.  It was made of top quality cloth, often quilted and tailored bespoke to fit elegantly for each officer wearer.  The mess dress upper garment, was described as a ‘jacket’ because it was waist length, which was the original specification for a garment of that description.  The principal reason the semantics are important is because that’s how the garments were differentiated in officers ‘Dress Regulations’ (soldiers had ‘clothing regulations’) that were set down from time-to-time.  Over the decades and subsequent iterations of dress regulations, terminology was not always consistent with undress items and ‘jacket’ became more loosely used, but tunic remained precise and invariably described the superior garment for the highest standard dress.

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, (died 1942)  3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

 (MiCs for Major & Staff Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 2/3^rd Gurkha Rifles and Lieutenant Colonel 12^th Indian Infantry Brigade).

Was having much joy finding a picture of him, so was concentrating on a 6^th Gurkha search in line with the discussion above.  One of the documents that turned up online   was a 2020 copy of The Journal, 6 Queen Elizabeth’s Own Gurkha Rifles, (issue 100)

There on page 68 was a photograph with a caption “1^st Battalion Officers and wives Christmas Day 1923”.
All present are named, Centre of the front seated row is Lt Col. GM Glynton., DSO and Mrs Glynton. https://issuu.com/internationalsalvageunion/docs/6grra_2020_journal_100_redacted

The chance that there could be two G.M. Glynton's serving with the Gurkhas at this time, and with progression from Captain at Staff College, Quetta in 1910 to Lieutenant Colonel in 1923 seeming a not unlikely one, I dug deeper.

The 6^th Gurkhas website also has a montage of pictures of Commanding Officers.

Lieutenant Colonel G.M. Glynton, DSO is recorded as commanding 1^st Battalion 1922-26.
(It’s unfortunate about the position of the belt buckle on the man standing behind him - he doesn't really have antennae on the side of his head!)
https://www.6thgurkhas.org/the-regiment/gallery/commanding-officers/

And a little something apposite from “Uncle Bill” - The authorised biography of Field Marshall Viscount Slim by Russell Miller, after the newly appointed Lt.Colonel Glynton from 3^rd Gurkhas had managed to irritate most of the officers of 6^th Gurkhas within a few days of arrival. One of the junior officers of the 6^th, Bill Slim, was the future Field Marshall Viscount Slim. The final paragraph is the relevant piece although the rest of the page puts it in context.

https://archive.org/details/authorisedbiogra0000mill/page/90/mode/2up?q=Glynton+Gurkha

And from the 1941-50 edition of Who was who.
GLYNTON, Col. Gerard Maxwell, D.S.O. 1919; s. of late Charles Maxwell Glynton, Bath; m. 1st, Irene Mary (d. 1924) yr. d. of B. J. Hall, Eastcote, Middlesex ; 2nd, 1929, Audrey, o. d. of G. A. Linck, Nab Wood, Shipley, Yorks. Educ.: Bath College; R.M.C., Sandhurst. Gazetted to Indian Army, 1899; appointed to 3rd Q.A.O. Gurkha Rifles, 1901; graduated at Staff College, 1910; served European War in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Palestine (despatches, D.S.0.); Commandant 1/6th Gurkha Rifles, 1922-26; General Staff Baluchistan District, 1927-31; retired 1932. Address: The Priory, Follifoot, Yorkshire. T.: Harrogate 81537. [Died 26 Jan. 1942]
https://archive.org/details/whowaswho19411950004vari/page/14/mode/2up?q=Glynton+Gurkha&view=theater

So all that leaves is my nomination  - Officer 13.

And if that makes Officer 13 a 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles, then perhaps Officer 3 is too?

Brigadier David Graeme Ridgeway, CB, DSO.
Born 12^th December 1879. Kelvin, Lanarkshire.
Died 2^nd February 1950. Naivasha, Kenya.

Picture source as per @Bob Davies https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/default.asp?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=5143

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 17 February , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[Bob Davies]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

No Bob, the OP photo shows each officer not in native dress wearing a ‘tunic’, which in the British, Dominion, and Colonial forces, was traditionally the designation of the best quality upper garment reserved for review order, levees (Royal audiences) and official duty including formal guard.  It was made of top quality cloth, often quilted and tailored bespoke to fit elegantly for each officer wearer.  The mess dress upper garment, was described as a ‘jacket’ because it was waist length, which was the original specification for a garment of that description.  The principal reason the semantics are important is because that’s how the garments were differentiated in officers ‘Dress Regulations’ (soldiers had ‘clothing regulations’) that were set down from time-to-time.  Over the decades and subsequent iterations of dress regulations, terminology was not always consistent with undress items and ‘jacket’ became more loosely used, but tunic remained precise and invariably described the superior garment for the highest standard dress.

Bear with me please FROGSMILE. A tunic is what a guardsman outside Buckingham Palace wears. Is the man in this picture wearing a jacket?

[Bob Davies]

Just now, PRC said:

Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, (died 1942)  3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles

That is he Peter. I was about to send you the 6th Gurkha link :-)

 

Just now, PRC said:

Brigadier David Graeme Ridgeway, CB, DSO.

Yes that is he. Thanks for side by sides, great work again, you get the job!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Bear with me please FROGSMILE. A tunic is what a guardsman outside Buckingham Palace wears. Is the man in this picture wearing a jacket?

No he’s not Bob, I’ve already told you that all the officers, except those in native (Type A) dress, are wearing tunics.  It’s the quality and cut that makes it a tunic, not the colour and design.  The best and most expensive upper garment was the tunic, followed by the mess dress jacket.  Rifle regiment officers, and their WO/staff sergeant’s pattern tunics, had the frogged front that we’ve already discussed, regardless of whether Drab, or Rifle Green in colour. 

Edited 17 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 17/02/2023 at 21:35, PRC said:

Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, (died 1942)  3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles

 

1909 entrant & 1911 graduate so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

 

 (MiCs for Major & Staff Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 2/3^rd Gurkha Rifles and Lieutenant Colonel 12^th Indian Infantry Brigade).

 

Was having much joy finding a picture of him, so was concentrating on a 6^th Gurkha search in line with the discussion above.  One of the documents that turned up online   was a 2020 copy of The Journal, 6 Queen Elizabeth’s Own Gurkha Rifles, (issue 100)

 

There on page 68 was a photograph with a caption “1^st Battalion Officers and wives Christmas Day 1923”.
All present are named, Centre of the front seated row is Lt Col. GM Glynton., DSO and Mrs Glynton. https://issuu.com/internationalsalvageunion/docs/6grra_2020_journal_100_redacted

 

The chance that there could be two G.M. Glynton's serving with the Gurkhas at this time, and with progression from Captain at Staff College, Quetta in 1910 to Lieutenant Colonel in 1923 seeming a not unlikely one, I dug deeper.

 

The 6^th Gurkhas website also has a montage of pictures of Commanding Officers.

 

Lieutenant Colonel G.M. Glynton, DSO is recorded as commanding 1^st Battalion 1922-26.
(It’s unfortunate about the position of the belt buckle on the man standing behind him - he doesn't really have antennae on the side of his head!)
https://www.6thgurkhas.org/the-regiment/gallery/commanding-officers/

 

And a little something apposite from “Uncle Bill” - The authorised biography of Field Marshall Viscount Slim by Russell Miller, after the newly appointed Lt.Colonel Glynton from 3^rd Gurkhas had managed to irritate most of the officers of 6^th Gurkhas within a few days of arrival. One of the junior officers of the 6^th, Bill Slim, was the future Field Marshall Viscount Slim. The final paragraph is the relevant piece although the rest of the page puts it in context.

https://archive.org/details/authorisedbiogra0000mill/page/90/mode/2up?q=Glynton+Gurkha

 

And from the 1941-50 edition of Who was who.
GLYNTON, Col. Gerard Maxwell, D.S.O. 1919; s. of late Charles Maxwell Glynton, Bath; m. 1st, Irene Mary (d. 1924) yr. d. of B. J. Hall, Eastcote, Middlesex ; 2nd, 1929, Audrey, o. d. of G. A. Linck, Nab Wood, Shipley, Yorks. Educ.: Bath College; R.M.C., Sandhurst. Gazetted to Indian Army, 1899; appointed to 3rd Q.A.O. Gurkha Rifles, 1901; graduated at Staff College, 1910; served European War in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Palestine (despatches, D.S.0.); Commandant 1/6th Gurkha Rifles, 1922-26; General Staff Baluchistan District, 1927-31; retired 1932. Address: The Priory, Follifoot, Yorkshire. T.: Harrogate 81537. [Died 26 Jan. 1942]
https://archive.org/details/whowaswho19411950004vari/page/14/mode/2up?q=Glynton+Gurkha&view=theater

 

So all that leaves in my nomination  - Officer 13.

 

 

 

 

And if that makes Officer 13 a 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles, then perhaps Officer 3 is too?

 

 

 

 

Brigadier David Graeme Ridgeway, CB, DSO.
Born 12^th December 1879. Kelvin, Lanarkshire.
Died 2^nd February 1950. Naivasha, Kenya.

 

Picture source as per @Bob Davies https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/default.asp?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=5143

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

 

The 3rd QAO Gurkha Rifles changed their title to include that Royal Appellation (from the Queen consort no less) in 1908.  At that stage the pouch belt badge that I posted above, with her cypher at top was introduced.  At the Quetta staff college it might be possible that the 3rd Gurkha officers attending were wearing the previous pattern of badge, without the features introduced as a result of the association with Queen Alexandra.  If so, then it’s reasonable that the Rifle Brigade style badges with black background are those that we can see.

Pouch belts were entirely at the whim of regiments.  They do not appear in dress regulations because they are categorised as accoutrements rather than dress.  It’s frustrating because I know of no publication describing and illustrating them in the public domain.  If there’s any publication at all it’s probably in one of the relatively obscure, special interest booklets periodically produced by the British military historical society for subscribers.

As an example I enclose images of two successive patterns of the 1st Gurkha Rifles (Malaun Regiment). The second pattern is identifiable by the change from title of Prince of Wales to King George’s Own after his accession/coronation in 1911.  At the same time he became Emperor of India and so GRI was also incorporated in the design.  Hence forward that cypher became quite ubiquitous in the Indian Army, as the Sovereign also becoming Emperor was an extremely big deal within the subcontinent for obvious reasons.

Edited 19 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Here is a photo of a senior 3rd Gurkha wearing a pouch belt in 1911.  Note the change in design and how the crown is projected upward by the GRI cypher (after the King formally became Emperor of India circa 1911).

With regards to the earlier badge I posted see: https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/gurkha/3rdgurkhasbeltbadge.htm

Edited 19 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE