Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[Bob Davies]

 

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Bob Davies
To add Oct 1909 list and Jan 1911 list to the July 1910 list

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Number 60, 1911 photo. Is this Sir Berkley Vincent, pictured as a Major, temp Lt Col 6th Dragoons 1911? I will need @PRC to work his magic with a side by side please. My attached picture is courtesy of 'National Portrait Gallery'. 

In this case I don’t think they’re the same man, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In this case I don’t think they’re the same man, Bob

I can't find a lot about him, other than what is on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Vincent

[PRC]

So if we have another strong identification in Henry Dowrish Drake, the only member of staff from @mrfrank‘s original list without any candidate in the 1911 photograph is Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles. (Which thanks to the Staff College extract provided by @Bob Davies we can see as likely to have been in place since the 20^th September 1909 and so should be in both pictures.)

On the last few summaries I’ve posted for the 1911 picture I’ve listed officer 50 as possible a member of the college staff, although with a big question mark. The only basis for that is his presence on the front row, and his general fig being similar to a number of those also sat there.

There is an officer from the 1910 picture who appears to have a strong head and facial resemblance – but appears to be wearing the uniform of one of the native rifle regiments.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

@JAH1979  – I wonder if there is any chance of a sharper image of officer 41 from your picture. Any details from that would certainly assist @FROGSMILE and others with narrowing down the regiment and from that identifying the man. Quite understand if you can’t – but if you don’t ask, you don’t get

Cheers,
Peter

P.S. @Bob Davies will get back to you on Berkeley Vincent, after we have a go at sorting this one out!

[JAH1979]

I will look at it Sunday am, no problem 

JAH

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

So if we have another strong identification in Henry Dowrish Drake, the only member of staff from @mrfrank‘s original list without any candidate in the 1911 photograph is Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles. (Which thanks to the Staff College extract provided by @Bob Davies we can see as likely to have been in place since the 20^th September 1909 and so should be in both pictures.)

 

On the last few summaries I’ve posted for the 1911 picture I’ve listed officer 50 as possible a member of the college staff, although with a big question mark. The only basis for that is his presence on the front row, and his general fig being similar to a number of those also sat there.

 

There is an officer from the 1910 picture who appears to have a strong head and facial resemblance – but appears to be wearing the uniform of one of the native rifle regiments.

 

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

 

@JAH1979  – I wonder if there is any chance of a sharper image of officer 41 from your picture. Any details from that would certainly assist @FROGSMILE and others with narrowing down the regiment and from that identifying the man. Quite understand if you can’t – but if you don’t ask, you don’t get

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

P.S. @Bob Davies will get back to you on Berkeley Vincent, after we have a go at sorting this one out!

 

Definitely the same man and the uniform is appropriate for Punjab Rifles, although a better image would indeed probably enable a match to the pouch belt badge.  See images of 56th below.

 

 

 

Edited 12 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

On the last few summaries I’ve posted for the 1911 picture I’ve listed officer 50 as possible a member of the college staff, although with a big question mark. The only basis for that is his presence on the front row, and his general fig being similar to a number of those also sat there.

 

There is an officer from the 1910 picture who appears to have a strong head and facial resemblance – but appears to be wearing the uniform of one of the native rifle regiments.

He certainly looks to be the same man Peter. Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles, is probably a good bet. I have not found any other pictures of him elsewhere on the net. I have added Oct 1909 list and Jan 1911 list to the July 1910 list above, Elsmie appears on all three. There are 'student' lists under them if you need them. Courtesy of 'Indian Army List' FIBIS. Elsmie is not on the January 1909 list Link here;https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

16 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Number 60, 1911 photo. Is this Sir Berkley Vincent, pictured as a Major, temp Lt Col 6th Dragoons 1911?

Yesterday when I was looking at the officers numbered 31 to 40 on the 1910 picture, which includes a number of members of the senior college staff, there were a couple that I couldn’t find an obvious match for on the 1911 version. One was the 1910 Officer number 36. Having seen the three images online from the National Portrait Gallery for Sir Berkeley Vincent dating from 1919, my gut feel is that they are one and the same.

I’m still not seeing a match for him on the 1911 edition – and by the sounds of things in that Wikipedia piece he’d already fallen foul of Haig by then, who pushed for him to be dismissed. Having seen modern industrial warfare up close in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05, no doubt Vincents’ lessons learned may have included no need for cavalry – a career limiting heresy no doubt if he did and Haig was in his command chain. If Vincent was still at the college at the time of the 1911 photo pending the outcome of his appeal to the King then I suspect he would not have wanted to appear in a picture with Haig.

On the 1910 picture I believe I can see four medals, one being some sort of cross. He served in the China Expeditionary Force in 1900 and then the Second Boer War, so that probably accounts for three of them. He was buried alive and gassed during WW1, which may explain why he appears to have aged more than 10 years. (And you should never rule out the possibility that I have simply got it wrong!)

 

National Portait Gallery image from 1919 courtesy https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw107856/Sir-Berkeley-Vincent?LinkID=mp79012&role=sit&rNo=2

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, PRC said:

Yesterday when I was looking at the officers numbered 31 to 40 on the 1910 picture, which includes a number of members of the senior college staff, there were a couple that I couldn’t find an obvious match for on the 1911 version. One was the 1910 Officer number 36. Having seen the three images online from the National Portrait Gallery for Sir Berkeley Vincent dating from 1919, my gut feel is that they are one and the same.

 

I’m still not seeing a match for him on the 1911 edition – and by the sounds of things in that Wikipedia piece he’d already fallen foul of Haig by then, who pushed for him to be dismissed. Having seen modern industrial warfare up close in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05, no doubt Vincents’ lessons learned may have included no need for cavalry – a career limiting heresy no doubt if he did and Haig was in his command chain. If Vincent was still at the college at the time of the 1911 photo pending the outcome of his appeal to the King then I suspect he would not have wanted to appear in a picture with Haig.

 

On the 1910 picture I believe I can see four medals, one being some sort of cross. He served in the China Expeditionary Force in 1900 and then the Second Boer War, so that probably accounts for three of them. He was buried alive and gassed during WW1, which may explain why he appears to have aged more than 10 years. (And you should never rule out the possibility that I have simply got it wrong!)

 

 

 

 

National Portait Gallery image from 1919 courtesy https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw107856/Sir-Berkeley-Vincent?LinkID=mp79012&role=sit&rNo=2

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

I believe they are indeed the same man. The rather forlorn and pained set around his eyes is distinct.

The triangular ribbon suspension of his cross suggests an honorific Order, rather than a campaign, or gallantry medal.

Edited 12 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

Yesterday when I was looking at the officers numbered 31 to 40 on the 1910 picture, which includes a number of members of the senior college staff, there were a couple that I couldn’t find an obvious match for on the 1911 version. One was the 1910 Officer number 36. Having seen the three images online from the National Portrait Gallery for Sir Berkeley Vincent dating from 1919, my gut feel is that they are one and the same.

 

I’m still not seeing a match for him on the 1911 edition – and by the sounds of things in that Wikipedia piece he’d already fallen foul of Haig by then, who pushed for him to be dismissed. Having seen modern industrial warfare up close in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05, no doubt Vincents’ lessons learned may have included no need for cavalry – a career limiting heresy no doubt if he did and Haig was in his command chain. If Vincent was still at the college at the time of the 1911 photo pending the outcome of his appeal to the King then I suspect he would not have wanted to appear in a picture with Haig.

 

On the 1910 picture I believe I can see four medals, one being some sort of cross. He served in the China Expeditionary Force in 1900 and then the Second Boer War, so that probably accounts for three of them. He was buried alive and gassed during WW1, which may explain why he appears to have aged more than 10 years. (And you should never rule out the possibility that I have simply got it wrong!)

I believe you have a good match there Peter. All of what you say makes sense. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, great job! Sir Berkley Vincent KBE CB CMG. has a few letters after his name so the cross shaped medal may be one of these? As @FROGSMILE says 'The triangular ribbon suspension of his cross suggests an honorific Order, rather than a campaign, or gallantry medal.' There is another picture of him via Wikipedia, number 13 as a Captain.  link here;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_attachés_and_observers_in_the_Russo-Japanese_War

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I believe you have a good match there Peter. All of what you say makes sense. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, great job! Sir Berkley Vincent KBE CB CMG. has a few letters after his name so the cross shaped medal may be one of these? As @FROGSMILE says 'The triangular ribbon suspension of his cross suggests an honorific Order, rather than a campaign, or gallantry medal.' There is another picture of him via Wikipedia, number 13 as a Captain.  link here;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_attachés_and_observers_in_the_Russo-Japanese_War

Of the three honours the CB seems to match.  I’m not very clued up on the precedence of mounting though.

Edited 12 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

On 08/02/2023 at 16:05, PRC said:

James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans  (No medals at the time this picture was taken)

Peter et al, have we found this Officer yet? He could well be Brigadier James Whitehead CB CMG CBE DSO OStJ ADC Courtesy of Wikipedia;Whitehead was the son of Lieutenant-Colonel Edmund Whitehead, an officer in the Black Watch. He was educated at Dulwich College and at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. He was commissioned a second lieutenant into the Royal West Kent Regiment on 12 August 1899,^[1] but on 29 October 1901 transferred to the Indian Staff Corps in the Indian Army.^[2] He was promoted lieutenant on 12 November 1901^[3] and Captain on 12 August 1908, by which time he was serving with the 1st Brahmans.^[4] In 1907 he married Winifred Fanny Fell; they had four sons and one daughter. He attended the Staff College from 1911 to 1912. No picture found yet. Link; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Whitehead_(police_officer)

[PRC]

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 31-40.

31. Is I believe Number 40 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs. One of the 1910 enrolees.

32. Already identified as Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse).

33. Is I believe Number 43 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Infantry. No medals? This might be 1st Prince of Wales’s Own Gurkha Rifles.  Another possibility is a 130th King George's Own Baluchis that also featured PoW feathers.  The former seems closer but the scroll under the badge doesn’t chime.

34. Not sure there is a match.

35. Not sure there is a match.

36. Not sure there is a match with the 1911 photo but believed to be Major Berkeley Vincent.

37. Already identified as Theodore Fraser, R.E. (College Staff).

38. Suggested by me earlier as a possible match for Henry Dowrish Drake, Royal Marine Artillery (College Staff) – see my previous post.

39. Most likely the College Commandant Thompson Capper – he had been replaced by the time the 1911 picture was taken.

40. Is I believe Number 58 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff).

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

Thank you @PRC Peter. If I now state the obvious hit me a slap and I go back under my rock 49 1910 and 34 1911 are the same man, Farrell Boyd DSO 2nd Leinster.  On the 1911 we have the signature H E Braine. Lower edge of border in the middle ish. From the July 1910 Indian Army List his name is mentioned as a student,  Royal Munster Fusiliers. Do we have any uniform recognition pointers for that regiment? @FROGSMILE Long triangles on the cuffs going up the lower sleeve is from memory somewhere or did I dream it up? Similar to number 19 in the1910 photo? I am unable to use the numbered picture for some reason. Number 19 is standing top left of my attached pic. Number 49 is seated 3rd from left (Farrell Boyd DSO 2nd Leinster.)

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you @PRC Peter. If I now state the obvious hit me a slap and I go back under my rock 49 1910 and 34 1911 are the same man, Farrell Boyd DSO 2nd Leinster.  On the 1911 we have the signature H E Braine. Lower edge of border in the middle ish. From the July 1910 Indian Army List his name is mentioned as a student,  Royal Munster Fusiliers. Do we have any uniform recognition pointers for that regiment? @FROGSMILE Long triangles on the cuffs going up the lower sleeve is from memory somewhere or did I dream it up? Similar to number 19 in the1910 photo? I am unable to use the numbered picture for some reason. Number 19 is standing top left of my attached pic. Number 49 is seated 3rd from left (Farrell Boyd DSO 2nd Leinster.)

Bob, officer #38 in 1910 is the Royal Munster Fusiliers we seek.  The hackle in his Wolseley helmet white over green on left side.  Lancashire Fusiliers would be a yellow hackle same side with a square flash (patch).  In the first photo there was just one fusilier officer, but in second there are two.

Edited 12 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

From the July 1910 Indian Army List his name is mentioned as a student,  Royal Munster Fusiliers. Do we have any uniform recognition pointers for that regiment?

The Royal Munster Fusiliers Officer is down as a 1909 entrant and I've seen nothing to indicate that he was still there 1911. For now I'm trying to stay focused and use the faces on the 1910 picture to try an address the gaps in naming the people present in the 1911 picture - think Elmslie and the 56th Punjabs uniform. More than happy for others to start pulling together a full list of the names of the 1909 entrants, (i.e. with first names) and looking for images of them to make potential matches, but for me that is something for the future.

26 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

49 1910 and 34 1911 are the same man, Farrell Boyd DSO 2nd Leinster. 

Agree with you entirely and it's in my matches for the next batch, Officers 41 to 50. Unfortunately I'm nursing a poorly computer - have been for months but it's slowly getting worst. I have to practically close everything down in order to do image editing when it's a bad day. So bear with me - I'm getting there but it may be a bit slow

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Bob, officer #38 in 1910 is Royal Munster Fusiliers.  The hackle in his Wolseley helmet white over green. 

Thank you FROGSMILE.  Yes the extra bit at the top of the point like this unrelated picture ;

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

So bear with me - I'm getting there but it may be a bit slow

No worries Peter. Mine is the same, 10 windows open and my mind is working quicker than the machine can cope with  Which is saying some thing! Thank you for your interest, postings and help. Cheers, Bob.

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Royal Munster Fusiliers Officer is down as a 1909 entrant and I've seen nothing to indicate that he was still there 1911. For now I'm trying to stay focused and use the faces on the 1910 picture to try an address the gaps in naming the people present in the 1911 picture - think Elmslie and the 56th Punjabs uniform. More than happy for others to start pulling together a full list of the names of the 1909 entrants, (i.e. with first names) and looking for images of them to make potential matches, but for me that is something for the future.

Agree with you entirely and it's in my matches for the next batch, Officers 41 to 50. Unfortunately I'm nursing a poorly computer - have been for months but it's slowly getting worst. I have to practically close everything down in order to do image editing when it's a bad day. So bear with me - I'm getting there but it may be a bit slow

Cheers,
Peter

Understood Peter, I did not mean to distract you from your thought process and was just responding to Bob’s comment regarding RMF. 

[PRC]

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 41-50.

41. Is I believe Number 50 on the 1911 photo – currently down as College Staff? I’ve posted above suggesting based on his appearance in the 1910 photo that he might be Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles, a member of the College Staff, and now the only known member of the senior college staff for which we don’t have a candidate.

42. Is I believe Number 51 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR.

43. Is I believe Number 3 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt.

44. Is I believe Number 29 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles.

45. Is I believe Number 30 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment.

46. Not sure there is a match.

47. Is I believe possibly Number 9 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Francis Duncan Irvine, 2nd Queen's Own Sappers & Miners.

 

48. Not sure there is a match.

49. Both @Bob Davies and I believe this is Number 34 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster.

 

50. Not sure there is a match.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

1910-1911 Staff College Photograph. Officers number 51-55.

51. Not sure there is a match.

52. Is possibly number 46 on the 1911 photo, although hair parting has shifted. General face, head shape, build, collar tabs and lack of medals however would make him a strong contender. Currently down as Possibly Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery.

Additional Pictures.
Civilian politician, 1930’s from Wikipedia, stated to be in the Public Domain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Fairweather_Harrison#/media/File:Eric_Fairweather_Harrison.jpg

Undated picture as Commandant, Royal Military College, Duntroon – unfortunately a position he held 1929-30 and 1940-42. Picture stated to be in the Public Domain. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/100127

1941 Brigadier Eric Fairweather Harrison, Commandant Royal Military College. Picture stated to be in the Public Domain. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C29527

53. Not sure there is a match.

54. Is I believe possibly Number 27 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.

55. Is I believe 19 on the 1911 photo – currently down as Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear).

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

John Cavendish Freeland 35th Sikhs, from the OP list is pictured here Courtesy IWM; https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1253707

Edited 13 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[mrfrank]

I’d suggest that the position where he placed his signature on the 1910 photograph mount would also indicate that we have the correct identification for EF Harrison on the respective images. 

#52 1910 & #46 1911

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

John Cavendish Freeland 35th Sikhs, from the OP list is pictured here Courtesy IWM; https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1253707

As he was 1911 intake he should only appear on the Haig picture, but I'm struggling to make a match. Nearest facially might be 13*, but frogsmile's comment was that from what little could be seen, 13 was appearing to be dressed for an imperial infantry regiment, not a native one, and we have also got a provisional identification for 13 as Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, in part based on the medals on display.  Doesn't mean that is set in stone, but what can't be told so far is when this picture was taken and therefore what the medal ribbons on display might be.

*There are others facially, but on inspection they appear to be RA, RE or the collar colours don't match. Of course in the last case that maybe because he has moved on to another regiment by the time this picture was taken.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

30 minutes ago, PRC said:

As he was 1911 intake he should only appear on the Haig picture, but I'm struggling to make a match. Nearest facially might be 13*, but frogsmile's comment was that from what little could be seen, 13 was appearing to be dressed for an imperial infantry regiment, not a native one, and we have also got a provisional identification for 13 as Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, in part based on the medals on display.  Doesn't mean that is set in stone, but what can't be told so far is when this picture was taken and therefore what the medal ribbons on display might be.

*There are others facially, but on inspection they appear to be RA, RE or the collar colours don't match. Of course in the last case that maybe because he has moved on to another regiment by the time this picture was taken.

Cheers,
Peter

From ancestry, born, 22nd Jan 1877. died 19th Sept 1944 Suffolk.    2nd Lt. Unatt Ind S.C. 4th Aug 1897- 8 Nov 1898.  From his MIC enters France 12-10-14.  35th Sihks, Dehra Dun Brigade. Was awarded CB and CBE at some stage. Image courtesy of fold 3.