Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[Matthew B.]

I do not think if this has been posted or referenced - its from the January 1912 Indian Army List:

 

Edited 8 February , 2023 by Matthew B.

[Matthew B.]

And this from the April 1912 Indian Army List:

[Matthew B.]

And this from January 1911 Indian Army List for comparison (I am afraid these are the only IAL's covering this period I have access too):

 

 

[MartH]

Without wishing to spoil the fun of searching. Has anyone split out the unknow individuals from the photo  and tried google image search. It does not yet use biomertic search across it's photos, but it soon will do, and may find the person though other forms of matching. 

[PRC]

Time for another summary perhaps

1: Thomas Anselan Pollok-Morris, Highland Light Infantry
2: Infantry, one medal. Indian regiment given absence of collar badge and his tunic is of pre 1903 pattern with a higher collar. 
3: Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt.
4: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. White plastron of Imperial style (the Indian was different).
5: Arthur Richard Careless Sanders R.E. (RE as evidenced by wavy line pouch belt).
6: Infantry. No medals.
7: Infantry? No medals. Indian infantry and probably Sikh without Royal appellation/association going by coloured facings and qoit collar badge.
8: Probably Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse (ex 5th Bombay Cavalry).
9: Francis Duncan Irvine (Royal Engineers), 2nd Queen’s Own Sappers & Miners. Definitely RE officer, attached to Sappers & Miners but retained parent uniform. 
10: Possibly Suffolk Regiment but no one from that regiment known to be attending. Frogsmile - I know of no Indian regiment with Gibraltar castle badge, but Suffolk’s white facings were changed at turn of century, so it implies he’s been away from regimental duty for some time.  
11: Probably Henry Bingham Whistler Smith-Rewse, RFA
12: Infantry No medals. From an Indian regiment and pre 1903 tunic with higher collar.
13: Probably Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment who had at this time QM+3, KM+2, India Medal+1 (NWF 1897-8). This Officer seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. Probably Imperial infantry regiment going by what can be seen of his tunic.
14: Probably Charles Kirkpatrick, Corps of Guides (no medal entitlement) - regiment styled as Hussars, special pouch belt design along with tunic style strongly suggests Corps of Guides.
15: Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure.(Frogsmile).
16: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps.
17: Infantry. No medals. Indian infantry probably with Royal appellation/association as facings appear to be dark blue.
18: Infantry. No medals. Probably South Wales Borderers as appears to be a metal sphinx on a darkish (perhaps green) collar.
19: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear).
20: Probably Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers
21: Richard Hope Waller, 38th Dogras
22: Probably Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. 
23: Probably Alleyn Charles Rothwell Greene, RGA (No medal entitlement).
24: Infantry? One medal – with clasp?
25: Native cavalry?
26: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp).
27: Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.
28: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers
29: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles
30: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment
31: Native Cavalry?
32: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?
33: Possibly 48th Pioneers
34: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster
35: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp
36: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?
37: Very likely to be the 14th (King George’s Own) Ferozepore Sikhs
38: Probably Frank Etheridge, 7th Rajputs
39: Native Cavalry? No medals.
40: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs
41: Probably Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry
42: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal
43: Infantry. No medals? This might be 1st Prince of Wales’s Own Gurkha Rifles.  Another possibility is a 130th King George's Own Baluchis that also featured PoW feathers.  The former seems closer but the scroll under the badge doesn’t chime.
44: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA
45: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs
46: Possibly Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery
47:  Possibly 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers
48: Probably Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry. Two medals. Identified from his Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry uniform, although clasps on QSA and KSA don’t tally to the totals shown in the relevant Army List.
49: Probably Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers
50: College Staff?
51: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR
52: Probably George de Symons Barrow, 4th Cavalry
53: Probably Col John Emerson Wharton Headlam DSO
54: College Commandant Walter Pipon Braithwaite.
55: Douglas Haig
56: Haig Staffer?
57: Haig Staffer? Two medal ribbons?
58: Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff).
59: Possibly Maj Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs. This officer appears to be wearing the Egyptian Medal & India Medal+3 clasps (that fits for him) as well as one other medal. 
60: College Staff?

Outstanding

College Staff

Henry Dowrish Drake, RM Artillery 
Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles
Theodore Fraser, RE

Students

John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse)
John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis
Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras
John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles
Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers
Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.
Maj Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.
Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse
James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans  (No medals at the time this picture was taken)
Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers
James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs
Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis
John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs
Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs
Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs
Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4.
Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis  - Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps.
Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry       

 

1 hour ago, MartH said:

Without wishing to spoil the fun of searching. Has anyone split out the unknow individuals from the photo  and tried google image search. It does not yet use biomertic search across it's photos, but it soon will do, and may find the person though other forms of matching. 

Sounds like a volunteer

Cheers,
Peter

[Matthew B.]

Small correction:

"Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4."

Underhill did serve in Aden 1903-4 but this service was not recognised with the award of clasps to the Africa General Service, so he has no medal entitlement at the time.

Matthew

 

 

 

[MartH]

23 minutes ago, PRC said:

Time for another summary perhaps

Sounds like a volunteer

Cheers,
Peter

As long as I am not accused of spoiling the fun!

[mrfrank]

Regarding #27 & #43 who - as described in the summary - are wearing Gurkha like uniform.

From the student roll the Gurkha officers yet to be identified are 

WC Little - 6th Gurkha Rifles

AB Lindsay - 2nd Gurkha Rifles

However, from the summary description posted by Peter these are also possible candidates:

#27 - JH de W Carruthers, 39 Garhwal Rifles

#43 - EC Kensington - 130th Baluchis 

[JAH1979]

Picked this up today signed with x34 signatures

the staff college

quetta 1910-11

[mrfrank]

Thanks for posting that….It’s like waiting ages for a bus and then two come along together!

Great stuff, and most faces seem common to the two images. 
 

Mike

[charlie962]

Peter will now be kept busy with some serious photo matching magic to do!

[JAH1979]

2 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks for posting that….It’s like waiting ages for a bus and then two come along together!

Great stuff, and most faces seem common to the two images. 
 

Mike

Yeah funny old world 

fascinating though

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, JAH1979 said:

Picked this up today signed with x34 signatures

the staff college

quetta 1910-11

Brilliant!  I hope that the seemingly Suffolk Regiment fellow is there and that we might now identify him.  Rear row second from right?

This time all but two are in Type A uniform.

Group photos like these were common for significant courses of instruction, but as the Staff College at Quetta only ran a few courses before WW1, photos in the regimental uniforms of 1903 regulation must be quite rare and wonderful opportunities to pick out rarely seen details.

At least two officers are in Official Mourning, which suggests the recent passing of a significant personage.

Edited 9 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

31 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Brilliant!  I hope that the seemingly Suffolk Regiment fellow is there and that we might now identify him.  Rear row second from right?

This time all but two are in Type A uniform.

Group photos like these were common for significant courses of instruction, but as the Staff College at Quetta only ran a few courses before WW1, photos in the regimental uniforms of 1903 regulation must be quite rare and wonderful opportunities to pick out rarely seen details.

At least two officers are in Official Mourning, which suggests the recent passing of a significant personage.

Unfortunately, I think the chap you’ve highlighted is #47 in my photo and the ‘Suffolk’ officer doesn’t appear to be in the signed photo.

[PRC]

Welcome to the forum @JAH1979 and thank you for posting this wonderful image - now I've got to cross my fingers and hope you won't be too offended if I play around with it a little bit

The first thing for me is that the officer with the plumed hat on his lap who is sat in the central position where I'd expecting a commanding officer to be doesn't appear to be Walter Pipon Braithwaite who became the Commandant in 1911 - I believe in February so before the 1911 intake.

Here's the comparison images of Braithwaite I posted earlier in the thread.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

So I think he is the previous Commandant, Thompson Capper.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

In that case the students will be a roughly 50% overlap - the 1909 intake will be on your picture but will have graduated by the time the picture posted by @mrfrank was taken.

Picture sources for Thompson Capper.

1&2. Image currently for sale on e-bay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334518099978

3. This version came from the Western Front Association, (and I suspect originally came from the Illustrated London News). https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/ma-dissertations/tommy-cappers-immortals-how-effective-was-the-7th-division-at-the-1st-battle-of-ypres/

A cropped version also appears on his Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Capper

4. From the image posted by @JAH1979

Cheers,
Peter

[JAH1979]

No problem at all

hope it’s of some help

 

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with your excellent assessment Peter and as mrfrank says the apparently Suffolk Regiment officer doesn’t seem to appear, as far as we can tell.  There’s also a fusilier officer from an Imperial regiment who appears in the rear row, but not in mrfrank’s photo, so these are both outcomes of the overlap you mention.  I do recall from the lists of staff college attendees posted by Matthew B that there was a Royal Munster Fusilier officer and I believe that is probably who appears in this latest image.  However, there is another fusilier officer in the third row (holding his white helmet with scarlet, shoulder title patch, and protruding hackle). 

 I think that the conspicuous Official Mourning (black crepe armbands) relate to the death of King Edward VII, a Royal patron of several Indian units, in 1910.

Edited 9 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

And you can never go too far wrong with a bit of numbering - although we'll need to be clear if its the 1910 numbering or the 1911 numbering if it gets used to identify individuals..

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner).

The 1910 number 37 is interesting - from his positioning on the 1911 photograph, (officer number 57), I thought he might have been Haigs' ADC, but looks like he might be on the College staff..

The 1910 intake should be this lot, (see previous posting for explanation), less Cassells and Lindsay who were allowed in in 1911 to take the course in one year.  We also know that Vire Gordon Menzies, admitted 1909, was allowed to take an extra year to complete the course.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited 9 February , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[mrfrank]

From the way that JH de W Carruthers (Garhwal Rigles) has signed the mount to the extreme right, I suspect that he’s #43 in my photo. 
 

Also that the officer on the College staff who appears in both (#37 signed photo & #57 in mine) is probably Theodore Fraser, RE (wavy patterned cross-belt again in signed photo) as he’s actually signed underneath where he appears.

 

Edited 9 February , 2023 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

From the way that JH de W Carruthers (Garhwal Rigles) has signed the mount to the extreme right, I suspect that he’s #43 in my photo. 
 

Also that the officer on the College staff who appears in both (#37 signed photo & #57 in mine) is probably Theodore Fraser, RE (wavy patterned cross-belt again in signed photo) as he’s actually signed underneath where he appears.

 

Enclosed is the 39th Garwhal Rifles pouch badge, it’s not what is being worn by #43, which is topped by Prince of Wales’s feathers. 

Edited 9 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Enclosed is the 39th Garwhal Rifles pouch badge, it’s not what is being worn by #43, which is topped by Prince of Wales’s feathers. 

Yes, I see what you mean Bob.  
In that case, Carruthers must be #27 in my photo & #54 in the signed photo. His signature having gone slightly to the right on the mount where there was room. 

[mrfrank]

A re-post if the 1909 intake that feature in the earlier signed photo: 

 

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

Also that the officer on the College staff who appears in both (#37 signed photo & #57 in mine) is probably Theodore Fraser, RE (wavy patterned cross-belt again in signed photo) as he’s actually signed underneath where he appears.

When I did my original run through I did find a photograph of a Lieutenant-Colonel Theodore Fraser, Royal Engineers, in the National Portrait Gallery, but it was taken in March 1933. Being some twenty plus years on, I couldn’t be sure if his “white” hair was simply to do with ageing – the man was born in 1865, so would be in his late sixties. He was one of the men I was thinking off when I wrote that although I had found images of them later in life, I did not think it would necessarily help to base an identification on comparing them with a man’s face in 1911.

However now we have the earlier picture I think the similarities are strong enough to discount it as a passing resemblance brought about by the passage of time. Of course others may see it differently.

1933 image sourced https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw220713/Sir-Theodore-Fraser

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[Old Owl]

Hi All,

I am pretty certain that Harold Lewis on the 'new' group photo is much more likely to be 32 rather than 9 as suggested. 

His hair and his IGS'08 medal are my two main reasons--any comments?

Best, Robert

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, PRC said:

When I did my original run through I did find a photograph of a Lieutenant-Colonel Theodore Fraser, Royal Engineers, in the National Portrait Gallery, but it was taken in March 1933. Being some twenty plus years on, I couldn’t be sure if his “white” hair was simply to do with ageing – the man was born in 1865, so would be in his late sixties. He was one of the men I was thinking off when I wrote that although I had found images of them later in life, I did not think it would necessarily help to base an identification on comparing them with a man’s face in 1911.

However now we have the earlier picture I think the similarities are strong enough to discount it as a passing resemblance brought about by the passage of time. Of course others may see it differently.

1933 image sourced https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw220713/Sir-Theodore-Fraser

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

I agree all three photos are of the same man.  Without a doubt.

20 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

A re-post if the 1909 intake that feature in the earlier signed photo: 

 

 

These regiments fit quite well with the latest group photo.