mrfrank Posted 30 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2023 1 minute ago, PRC said: The group shot of the British and Indian Officers of the 37th Lancers was one of a very similar number of dead-ends I've been down over the last few days, - groups of un-named individuals with several whose faces look like they could be present in the Quetta Staff College picture. Some of them date to the opening months of the Great War, but the individual concerned may not be present - their MiC's record they carried out a Staff role at some point during the war. So very glad you and @Old Owl are familiar with Harold Lewis. So combining the suggested individual from the picture on the National Army Museum website https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1973-04-12-2-12 with the picture from the Illustrated London News that has been used on the Lives of the First World War website https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5466186 along with a crop of officer 35 gives this comparison:- (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners). Cheers, Peter Thanks to both for your responses. Looking at the excellent comparison images provided by Peter, I’m now certain that’s him. Good result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 30 January , 2023 Share Posted 30 January , 2023 On 26/01/2023 at 11:56, mrfrank said: James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans Is it known whether James Whitehead had any medal entitlement at the time the Quetta Staff College picture was taken? Wikipedia has a picture of the Officers of the 1st Brahmans that has been dated to c1912. Three of the British Officers present, including the commanding officer, are wearing medals. The rest have not. Of course James Whitehead may not be present because he was still at the Staff College. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Brahmans#/media/File:Officers_1st_Brahmins,_1922.jpg Looking at the Collars, Numbers 6, 37, 47 or 48 from the Quetta Staff College picture might be a possible match for the 1912 picture, but not spotting any specific matches for those individuals in the 1st Brahmans officers present. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 On 26/01/2023 at 11:56, mrfrank said: Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs The National Army Museum has a named picture of the "Officers of the 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs, Peshawar, 1913". One of those listed is a Captain Talbot, p.s.c..https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1960-07-202-1 I couldn't get a particularly good crop of him from that source, but possibly a match for Officer 22. Looks like possibly a single medal ribbon on the 1913 picture. (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners). Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, PRC said: The National Army Museum has a named picture of the "Officers of the 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs, Peshawar, 1913". One of those listed is a Captain Talbot, p.s.c..https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1960-07-202-1 I couldn't get a particularly good crop of him from that source, but possibly a match for Officer 22. Looks like possibly a single medal ribbon on the 1913 picture. (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners). Cheers, Peter Although not the clearest image with the helmet, I do think that you’ve correctly matched the two faces, Peter. The eye sockets, mouth, jawline and set of the ears all compare well. Edited 31 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 31 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2023 6 hours ago, PRC said: Is it known whether James Whitehead had any medal entitlement at the time the Quetta Staff College picture was taken? Wikipedia has a picture of the Officers of the 1st Brahmans that has been dated to c1912. Three of the British Officers present, including the commanding officer, are wearing medals. The rest have not. Of course James Whitehead may not be present because he was still at the Staff College. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Brahmans#/media/File:Officers_1st_Brahmins,_1922.jpg Looking at the Collars, Numbers 6, 37, 47 or 48 from the Quetta Staff College picture might be a possible match for the 1912 picture, but not spotting any specific matches for those individuals in the 1st Brahmans officers present. Cheers, Peter Seems James Whitehead had no medal entitlement at the time the photograph was taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Many thanks Peter for posting these images of Harold Lewis--I think that these confirm beyond any doubt that 35 is indeed Harold Lewis. It is always good when a plan comes together! Best, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 On 26/01/2023 at 11:56, mrfrank said: Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis The National Archive Catalogue has two MiCs that appear to relate - one for a Major G.E.C. Underhill 62nd Punjabis that just says his service medals are to be issued by the India Office, while the second for Captain G.E.C. Underhill 62nd Punjabis that says his Victory Medal is to be issued by the India Office. These may just have been light touch on the administrative side of things, or he may genuinely not have seen any staff duties. In the latter case there is every chance he was still with the 62nd Punjabis when they moved to the Middle East in the opening months of the war. There are a number of appearances online of a photograph labelled "Officers of the 62nd Punjabis, Ismailia, Egypt, 1914.". Many, such as this version on Wikipedia, highlight the presence of the future General Claude Auchinleck. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/62nd_Punjabis#/media/File:62nd_Punjabis,_Ismailia,_Egypt,_1914.jpg However other than naming him, the rest are left unidentified - and so I wrote it off as another dead end. But this morning while following a lead on another one of the names I came across the picture, but in a version that included the names - and a Captain Underhill was one of them. Unfortunately even the user name of the person who posted it has been removed, and they are now simply shown as "Guest". I suspect it is just a fuller extract from the sourced quoted on Wikipedia - The First Punjabis: History of the First Punjab Regiment, 1759-1956. Punjab Regimental Centre, Mardan. It's a source I've come across before in connection with some of the other units repesented in the Quetta Staff College - usually with un-named office group pictures. If in reality the names are shown with the pictures in the actual book, (and are hopefully reproduced to a higher standard than was is currently available on line), then it may be possible to identify some of those still out-standing. We may also be able to firm up some of those possible identifications. So for now here is the best I could do for Captain Underhill - doesn't look like he is wearing any medal ribbons, and couldn't spot a standout match for him on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Picture stated by Wikipedia to be in the public domain. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 31 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2023 21 hours ago, PRC said: The National Army Museum has a named picture of the "Officers of the 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs, Peshawar, 1913". One of those listed is a Captain Talbot, p.s.c..https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1960-07-202-1 I couldn't get a particularly good crop of him from that source, but possibly a match for Officer 22. Looks like possibly a single medal ribbon on the 1913 picture. (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners). Cheers, Peter Thank you Peter for that find. Definitely him from the images above. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 31 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2023 9 hours ago, PRC said: The National Archive Catalogue has two MiCs that appear to relate - one for a Major G.E.C. Underhill 62nd Punjabis that just says his service medals are to be issued by the India Office, while the second for Captain G.E.C. Underhill 62nd Punjabis that says his Victory Medal is to be issued by the India Office. These may just have been light touch on the administrative side of things, or he may genuinely not have seen any staff duties. In the latter case there is every chance he was still with the 62nd Punjabis when they moved to the Middle East in the opening months of the war. There are a number of appearances online of a photograph labelled "Officers of the 62nd Punjabis, Ismailia, Egypt, 1914.". Many, such as this version on Wikipedia, highlight the presence of the future General Claude Auchinleck. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/62nd_Punjabis#/media/File:62nd_Punjabis,_Ismailia,_Egypt,_1914.jpg However other than naming him, the rest are left unidentified - and so I wrote it off as another dead end. But this morning while following a lead on another one of the names I came across the picture, but in a version that included the names - and a Captain Underhill was one of them. Unfortunately even the user name of the person who posted it has been removed, and they are now simply shown as "Guest". I suspect it is just a fuller extract from the sourced quoted on Wikipedia - The First Punjabis: History of the First Punjab Regiment, 1759-1956. Punjab Regimental Centre, Mardan. It's a source I've come across before in connection with some of the other units repesented in the Quetta Staff College - usually with un-named office group pictures. If in reality the names are shown with the pictures in the actual book, (and are hopefully reproduced to a higher standard than was is currently available on line), then it may be possible to identify some of those still out-standing. We may also be able to firm up some of those possible identifications. So for now here is the best I could do for Captain Underhill - doesn't look like he is wearing any medal ribbons, and couldn't spot a standout match for him on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Picture stated by Wikipedia to be in the public domain. Cheers, Peter He was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4. Agree that unfortunately, there appears to be no match for him in the photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Latest attempt at a summary of what we've discussed so far and a few basic, (and probably naive), observations. 1: Thomas Anselan Pollok-Morris, Highland Light Infantry2: Infantry?, one medal.3: R.A. or R.E.. two medals.4: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers5: Arthur Richard Careless Sanders R.E.6: Infantry? No medals.7: Infantry? No medals.8: Uniform is that of the 5th Bombay Cavalry. Officer with no medal entitlement.9: Francis Duncan Irvine (Royal Engineers), 2nd Queen’s Own Sappers & Miners.10: Infantry? No medals.11: Probably Henry Bingham Whistler Smith-Rewse, RFA12: Infantry? No medals.13: Officer seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. 14: Native Cavalry?15: Native Infantry?16: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps.17: Infantry? No medals.18: Infantry? No medals.19: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire20: Native Cavalry? One medal? With clasp?21: Richard Hope Waller, 38th Dogras22: Probably Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. 23: R.A. or R.E.? No medal.24: Infantry? One medal – with clasp?25: Native cavalry?26: R.A. or R.E.? Two medal.27: Gurkha ? No Medal.28: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers29: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles30: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment31: Probably Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse32: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?33: Infantry? No medals.34: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster35: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp36: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?37: Infantry? No medals.38: Infantry? No medals.39: Native Cavalry? No medals.40: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs41: Cavalry? One medal.42: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal43: Infantry? No medals?44: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA45: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs46: Possibly Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery47: Infantry? No medals.48: Infantry? Two medals.49: Probably Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers50: College Staff?51: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR52: Probably George de Symons Barrow, 4th Cavalry53: Probably Col John Emerson Wharton Headlam DSO54: Possibly College Commandant?55: Douglas Haig56: Haig Staffer?57: Haig Staffer? Two medal ribbons?58: Haig Staffer? Three \ Four medal ribbons?59: College Staff? Three medals, one with clasps.60: College Staff? Outstanding College Staff Henry Dowrish Drake, RM Artillery George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph) Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles Theodore Fraser, RE Students James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.) Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. Maj Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs Maj Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Alleyn Charles Rothwell Greene, RGA Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse Charles Kirkpatrick, Corps of Guides James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans (No medals at the time this picture was taken) Frank Etheridge, 7th Rajputs Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4. Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps. Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 31 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2023 On 27/01/2023 at 11:54, FROGSMILE said: Number 8 is 5th Bombay Cavalry, Peter. The pouch belt silver whistle is a special feature. Just looking again at the two native cavalry officers #8 & #31. #8 was identified as being 5th Bombay Cavalry & #31 as possibly 35th Scinde Horse. However, there is no 5th Bombay Cavalry in the 1911 AL and I’ve just read an on-line article where it states that the 5th Bombay Cavalry was renamed the 35th Scinde Horse in 1903. If that is the case, is it more likely that #8 is in fact 35th Scinde Horse and ED Giles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 31 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Just registered with JSTOR and accessed an article by The Journal of the Society of Historical Research entitled ‘Personalities and Uniforms at the Sauger Cavalry School, India, 1910’. Very useful in that it has a large group photo with accompanying key identifying the sitters and therefore uniform. From those regiments represented I’ve believe these are the regiments and individuals in The Quetta photograph: #8 - 35th Scinde Horse, ED Giles #20 - 2nd Lancers (Gardner’s Horse), HCS Ward #41 - 27th Light Cavalry, TGJ Torrie #31 remains unidentified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 (edited) On 31/01/2023 at 23:08, mrfrank said: Just looking again at the two native cavalry officers #8 & #31. #8 was identified as being 5th Bombay Cavalry & #31 as possibly 35th Scinde Horse. However, there is no 5th Bombay Cavalry in the 1911 AL and I’ve just read an on-line article where it states that the 5th Bombay Cavalry was renamed the 35th Scinde Horse in 1903. If that is the case, is it more likely that #8 is in fact 35th Scinde Horse and ED Giles? mrfrank I had not forgotten about this conundrum, but real life has intermittently got in the way and so I’ve been distracted. Your group photos of this kind are always interesting and often challenging, but this British-Indian photo is especially perplexing. In the previous, large photo taken at the university, I was able to identify every regiment with confidence because either, cap, or collar badges, or sometimes both were identifiable, such was the quality of the image. Although you have provided some good close ups, as before, this is much more difficult. In the British-Indian Army the British regimental officers had two forms of full dress, unlike their native counterparts, or their men. Type A was usually the traditional British style with white helmet similar to Imperial units and worn in dismounted review order. Type B was the native style with long tunic (kurta) and a turban (pagri) similar to that of their men and worn in mounted review order. For cavalry regiments the cuff and collar design on Type A was often that of Lancers, with a deeply curved lace V on the cuffs and no collar insignia. In your photo things are complicated by some officers wearing Type A (a majority) and some Type B (the few in native style). In addition the British-Indian units were much slower in adopting collar badges compared with their contemporaries in Imperial units. When examining the two figures #8 and #31, I needed to examine and cross reference 114 small colour images (see photos) to try and identify their regiments. I believed illustration 99 was correct for our figure #8 and saw that it was indeed the 35th Scinde Horse. I then looked for photos to match the colour illustration, and found the 5th Bombay Cavalry, which I then mentioned, forgetting that the title had changed in 1903 to the 35th Scinde Horse. Ergo mea culpa, and I’m sorry for the confusion caused. Identifying the various regimental uniforms is difficult, as they vary in a number of more complex ways than Imperial regiments. The following are aspects that generally need careful attention if an identification is to be achieved: 1. The facing colour often only shows as a thin line in a gold or silver laced (both were used) collar. If there’s no collar badge then it’s almost certainly a British-Indian unit (less Rifles), although some had started wearing them (e.g. pioneers and Rajputs). 2. The backing colour of shoulder chains needs to be determined and usually matches the coloured inset in the collar (but not always, see 35th Scinde Horse below). 3. The cuff embellishment is especially important, some use the Lancers deep chevron cuff, some the Hussars Austrian knot, some the Dragoons knot and some a special knot unique to various Indian cavalry units (see photos). For the infantry there are similar differences, with some like Imperial line regiments and some like rifle regiments, with the former commonly wearing a crimson silk waist sash. The deep plain V cuffs are the Lancer style and only worn by the cavalry officers in Type A (alternative to native dress). 4. The pouch belt is another feature, some are laced silver and some gold, some with battle honours, some without. Some incorporate a whistle and chain and others two prickers (often styled like arrows) that were originally to clean vent holes on firearms. For Royal Artillery they are plain gold lace and for Royal Engineers there is a wavy line with red (Morocco) leather backing. Edited 2 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, mrfrank said: Just registered with JSTOR and accessed an article by The Journal of the Society of Historical Research entitled ‘Personalities and Uniforms at the Sauger Cavalry School, India, 1910’. Very useful in that it has a large group photo with accompanying key identifying the sitters and therefore uniform. From those regiments represented I’ve believe these are the regiments and individuals in The Quetta photograph: #8 - 35th Scinde Horse, ED Giles #20 - 2nd Lancers (Gardner’s Horse), HCS Ward #41 - 27th Light Cavalry, TGJ Torrie #31 remains unidentified As mentioned above #8 is indeed 35th Scinde Horse, which had evolved the principal features of its uniform from previous lineage, the 5th Bombay Cavalry, whose photos were posted earlier in the thread. Below is a beautifully painted scale figure showing in colour the detail of the 35th’s uniform. The elaborate cuff knot is largely obscured by the white leather gauntlets, but you can just about make out the top of it. NB. There had originally been two regiments of horse raised in Scinde, the other had been the 6th Bombay Cavalry that in 1903 became the 36th Jacob’s Horse. Further amalgamation in 1922 led to more changes in title for both of the old Scinde regiments and again an amalgam of dress features resulted. Edited 1 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 1 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2023 47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: As mentioned above #8 is indeed 35th Scinde Horse, which had evolved the principal features of its uniform from the earlier 5th Bombay Cavalry whose photos were posted earlier in the thread. Below is a beautifully painted scale figure showing in colour the detail of the 35th’s uniform. The elaborate cuff knot is largely obscured by the white leather gauntlets, but you can just about make out the top of it. NB. There had originally been two regiments of horse raised in Scinde, the other had been the 6th Bombay Cavalry that in 1903 became the 36th Jacob’s Horse. Further amalgamation in 1922 led to more changes in title for both of the old Scinde regiments and again an amalgam of dress features resulted. If this photograph has taught me anything, it’s the complexity and intricacy of the uniforms of the various Indian Army regiments and the relative scarcity of good on-line resources. Apologies if you have already mentioned this Bob, but is there one comprehensive publication on the subject you’d recommend? Both as to the uniforms and also the Indian Army/Regiments themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, mrfrank said: If this photograph has taught me anything, it’s the complexity and intricacy of the uniforms of the various Indian Army regiments and the relative scarcity of good on-line resources. Apologies if you have already mentioned this Bob, but is there one comprehensive publication on the subject you’d recommend? Both as to the uniforms and also the Indian Army/Regiments themselves? Yes, I agree 100% with your comment about complexities. There are lots of books on the subject, but my current go-to (for decades now) and a very good all rounder on the subject, is by Boris Mollo. It is profusely illustrated, but covers a wide period and so limited in its coverage of the WW1 period. Nevertheless, a very worthwhile buy. I’ve heard good things about a new publication by an Indian author, Baudoin Ourari, but the general consensus seems to be that as a reference book it is spoiled by the completely inexplicable absence of an index. However, for our period of interest here in the forum the latter might well be best. Edited 1 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 (edited) On 31/01/2023 at 22:35, PRC said: Latest attempt at a summary of what we've discussed so far and a few basic, (and probably naive), observations. 1: Thomas Anselan Pollok-Morris, Highland Light Infantry2: Infantry?, one medal.3: R.A. or R.E.. two medals.4: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers5: Arthur Richard Careless Sanders R.E.6: Infantry? No medals.7: Infantry? No medals.8: Uniform is that of the 5th Bombay Cavalry. Officer with no medal entitlement.9: Francis Duncan Irvine (Royal Engineers), 2nd Queen’s Own Sappers & Miners.10: Infantry? No medals.11: Probably Henry Bingham Whistler Smith-Rewse, RFA12: Infantry? No medals.13: Officer seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. 14: Native Cavalry?15: Native Infantry?16: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps.17: Infantry? No medals.18: Infantry? No medals.19: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire20: Native Cavalry? One medal? With clasp?21: Richard Hope Waller, 38th Dogras22: Probably Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. 23: R.A. or R.E.? No medal.24: Infantry? One medal – with clasp?25: Native cavalry?26: R.A. or R.E.? Two medal.27: Gurkha ? No Medal.28: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers29: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles30: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment31: Probably Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse32: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?33: Infantry? No medals.34: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster35: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp36: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?37: Infantry? No medals.38: Infantry? No medals.39: Native Cavalry? No medals.40: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs41: Cavalry? One medal.42: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal43: Infantry? No medals?44: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA45: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs46: Possibly Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery47: Infantry? No medals.48: Infantry? Two medals.49: Probably Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers50: College Staff?51: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR52: Probably George de Symons Barrow, 4th Cavalry53: Probably Col John Emerson Wharton Headlam DSO54: Possibly College Commandant?55: Douglas Haig56: Haig Staffer?57: Haig Staffer? Two medal ribbons?58: Haig Staffer? Three \ Four medal ribbons?59: College Staff? Three medals, one with clasps.60: College Staff? Outstanding College Staff Henry Dowrish Drake, RM Artillery George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph) Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles Theodore Fraser, RE Students James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.) Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. Maj Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs Maj Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Alleyn Charles Rothwell Greene, RGA Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse Charles Kirkpatrick, Corps of Guides James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans (No medals at the time this picture was taken) Frank Etheridge, 7th Rajputs Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4. Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps. Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry Cheers, Peter Peter that numbering is really helpful, but if you have the time and patience would you mind numbering the four close-ups that mrfrank did early in the thread? They are the best images in terms of resolution and give me the best chance of identifying the arm, and or unit, of those who you’ve annotated as unclear. I can already see some that I can put units to, but several of the Indian units are more difficult, especially when they have no collar badges. Edited 2 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 1 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2023 On 27/01/2023 at 19:02, PRC said: The National Portrait Gallery has four pictures stated to have been taken at a session in 1918 that feature Major-General George McKenzie Franks, (1868-1958). I'm assuming the prints have all been reversed, al they all show him with his medal ribbons over his right breast. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw221052/Sir-George-McKenzie-Franks?LinkID=mp132736&role=sit&rNo=2 Possibly a match for number 52? Major edit. I then found a undated picture of George de Symons Barrow on the 20th Hussars website. https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/20thhussarsgeorgebarrow.htm Revised comparison has George Barrow on the left, officer 52 in the middle and George Franks on the right. (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners). Cheers, Peter Just gone back to this Peter and believe the RH image of George McKenzie Franks you provided is a very good match for #58. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Dear All, Brilliant researching of a fascinating subject! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Peter that numbering is really helpful, but if you have the time and patience would you mind numbering the four close-ups that mrfrank did early in the thread? They are the best images in terms of resolution and give me the best chance of identifying the arm, and or unit, of those who you’ve annotated as unclear. @mrfrank has kindly sent me a couple of different versions of the whole picture, but after comparing them side by side, the greatest detail does appear to be in the three images, (left, centre and right), that was posted very early in this thread. So I've tried merging the three pictures. Neither I or my antiquated software are clever enough to get all the tone balances correct, so it's still simple to detect the joins. I've then tried to get rid of the speckles and scratches individually - letting the sofware do it seemed to take out potentially what could be some of the buttons, flashes of gilt and ends of tassels. When in doubt I've erred on the side of the caution but there is still a small chance I have removed \ covered up something in error. Here's the end result without the numbering - as adding that means I'm working with an image of an image, that will see a file size reduction and potential loss of image quality. I'll post that shortly. (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner). Cheers, Peter Edit - and I see the fourm have reduced an 11Mb attachment to 2.78Mb on posting, so may not add much detail after all Edited 2 February , 2023 by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, PRC said: @mrfrank has kindly sent me a couple of different versions of the whole picture, but after comparing them side by side, the greatest detail does appear to be in the three images, (left, centre and right), that was posted very early in this thread. So I've tried merging the three pictures. Neither I or my antiquated software are clever enough to get all the tone balances correct, so it's still simple to detect the joins. I've then tried to get rid of the speckles and scratches individually - letting the sofware do it seemed to take out potentially what could be some of the buttons, flashes of gilt and ends of tassels. When in doubt I've erred on the side of the caution but there is still a small chance I have removed \ covered up something in error. Here's the end result without the numbering - as adding that means I'm working with an image of an image, that will see a file size reduction and potential loss of image quality. I'll post that shortly. (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner). Cheers, Peter Edit - and I see the fourm have reduced an 11Mb attachment to 2.78Mb on posting, so may not add much detail after all I’m not a photo manipulation techie at all Peter and I appreciate your time consuming efforts and intentions, but I’m afraid the original close-ups work best for me in terms of resolution. It’s just that it’s really fiddly to switch back and forth with the numbered picture when they’re so many thread pages apart. BTW, how do you change the colour of your font, do you effect it on your computer and then copy and paste? I can’t see a way to do it in the forum set up. Edited 2 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 2 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2023 (edited) There are a small number of unidentified individuals that are wearing collar badges. I shall post some crops of them later today as that may help matters a little. Thanks again gentlemen for your time & efforts. Edited 2 February , 2023 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mrfrank said: There are a small number of unidentified individuals that are wearing collar badges. I shall post some crops of them later today as that may help matters a little. Thanks again gentlemen for your time & efforts. That will be great. You might also find these links of interest: 1.https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/indiancavalry/indiancavalry1903.htm 2.https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/indianinfantry/indianinfantry1903.htm 3.https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/gurkha/gurkha1903.htm 4.https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/corpsofguides/corpsofguides.htm NB. There is a “uniforms” section for each regiment. Edited 2 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 2 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Thanks for those links Bob. Here the first crop looking at individual #18 Can’t get too close as starts to really lose the detail unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 2 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2023 #10 appears to be wearing collar badges with ‘castle/castellated’ design. …….and just noticed that #12 is sporting a monocle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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