Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911


mrfrank

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, PRC said:

The 1909 entrants \ 1911 graduates includes a Captain J. R. Wethered, Gloucesteshire Regiment - so he should only appear on the 1910 photograph.

Harts Annual Army List for 1911, (courtesy the National Library of Scotland), shows the following as Captains of the Gloucestershire Regiment. It's circumstantial, but as Captain Joseph Robert Wethered is the only Wethered listed, and he is shown as being at the Staff College, that is either going to be Camberley or Quetta.

262304341_Harts1911ListGlosterRegtRegularArmyCaptainssourcedNationalLibraryofScotland.png.527c9b728005131d2d40093f49f0e45a.png

There is a Great War MiC for Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Robert Wethered, 14th Infantry Brigade Staff Major, Captain Gloucestershire Regiment, C.M.G & D.S.O.

A comparison of the image available from the Glosters website linked to by @Bob Davies didn't produce any great visual matches for me from amongst the men photographed in the 1910 Staff College picture.

But coming over all junior @FROGSMILE I then tried looking for pictures of Gloucestershire Regiment men & officers from Edwardian era. As an absolute beginner, and it may be my naivete, but it seems like their collars are light coloured and there is a largish regimental collar badge - see the collar tab badges on the later picture for comparison of the shape.  So I'm offering this comparison with officer number 48 from the 1910 photograph more in hope rather than with any great conviction that it is the right man.

Cheers,
Peter

Joseph Wethered possible panel v1.png

Yes that’s him Peter, good spot.  And you are correct regarding the collar badge and white facings (at that time) too.  

 

A5E80660-6202-4B76-B4B8-9C8556166FE7.jpeg

879735C6-4C8E-4E61-AE3E-17C7B6B66AD2.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

but no mention that I can see of India.

Again it's circumstantial but his appearance in the 1911 Harts Annual List shows him as 1st Battalion, and the same page shows the 1st Battalion at Bombay at the start of the year although scheduled to move to Portsmouth. The record of services of the 1st Battalion in the same publication shows them stationed in Ceylon since 1900.

So unless the Gloucestershire Regiment has another J.R. Wethered in the mix, I think Joseph Robert is the right individual to match the student list name. My big concern is over whether I've identified the right man in the 1910 picture.

(Although I'm a bit more confident after seeing @FROGSMILE latest post:)

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s him Peter, good spot.  And you are correct regarding the collar badge and white facings (at that time) too.

Thanks for the picture FROGSILE, cuffs and collar match in my minds eye. @PRC It has to be him, 1st Battalion were at Lahore 1908 (Harts List)Edit; 1909 Harts list he is a Captain with the 1st Gloucesters at Dalhousie. Harts List 1910 1st Gloucesters Bombay with the words 'Staff College' after his name https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100781925  that has found him now @PRC Edit; He is still there in 1911 with the 1st Gloucesters  listed as  Bombay for Portsmouth https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100804849 and from the1911 UK  census he is residing at Cambridge Barracks Portsmouth as you mentioned above. He died 8th March 1942. His widow is Kathleen Dorothy Amy Wethered. His son Maj Guy Ernest Wethered 134368 10th Battalion Gloucesters was killed in Burma 22nd Nov 1944. Courtesy of fold 3 here; Edit He was with the 2nd Gloucesters while serving in South Africa 1899-1901.image.png.642ecf0d6112b56996a353fa02f3652f.pngimage.png.4b91b6f1caa8533ce4bedb23493e30c2.png

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Here is a candidate, picture here;https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw176733  for this Officer. Courtesy of Fold 3. Edit; @PRC In this 2nd picture he is the age we need him to be for comparison. courtesy IWM;https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290653

Thanks Bob D.

Captain Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse, was a 1911 entrant, so only appears on the later picture.

The 2nd picture is Imperial War Museum reference HU 113896. Captain C Hamilton Griffith Black, DSO, 12th Royal Lancers. Noted on back purchased from Messrs Lafayette, May 1918. At the time it was taken he is wearing no medal ribbons, which restricts down the possible matches from the 1911 picture. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290653

There are actually two photographs held by the National Portrait Gallery, unhelpfully stated to have been taken on the "31st" November 1933. They give his rank as Lieutenant-Colonel. As neither are quite as straight on to the camera as the potentential match from the 1911 picture I've included both to give a better appreciation of both eyebrows and upper eyelids - something weird is going on with his eyes in the 1911 picture. While we shouldn't read too much into it, the 1933 picture still shows a preference for a centre parting. A flaw on the 1911 picture I believe masks that all the images show a man with a dimpled chin. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp97234/claud-hamilton-griffith-black

I believe he is potentially a match for Officer 39.

618453759_ClaudHamiltonGriffithBlackpanelv1.png.72adb705864e56903e4318c01a21a2e8.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, PRC said:

Thanks Bob D.

Captain Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse, was a 1911 entrant, so only appears on the later picture.

The 2nd picture is Imperial War Museum reference HU 113896. Captain C Hamilton Griffith Black, DSO, 12th Royal Lancers. Noted on back purchased from Messrs Lafayette, May 1918. At the time it was taken he is wearing no medal ribbons, which restricts down the possible matches from the 1911 picture. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205290653

There are actually two photographs held by the National Portrait Gallery, uphelpfully stated to have been taken on the "31st" November 1933. They give his rank as Lieutenant-Colonel. As neither are quite as straight on to the camera as the potentential match from the 1911 picture I've included both to give a better appreciation of both eyebrows and upper eyelids - something weird is going on with his eyes in the 1911 picture. While we shouldn't read too much into it, the 1933 picture still shows a preference for a centre parting. A flaw on the 1911 picture I believe masks that all the images show a man with a dimpled chin. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp97234/claud-hamilton-griffith-black

 

I believe he is potentially a match for Officer 39.

618453759_ClaudHamiltonGriffithBlackpanelv1.png.72adb705864e56903e4318c01a21a2e8.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Yet another strike by you Peter, I totally agree that all four photos match.

241B5711-5D66-4FA2-97FD-060844EB9350.jpeg

17066E43-C7CD-41F6-A6B2-1564D0F6DA4D.jpeg

33F39242-501F-4501-A49B-0C2B4DC02AB1.jpeg

AD16E14D-824D-4217-BC9A-E3A8183C7EE4.jpeg

C99E7B8E-C8DF-4E95-BE05-D9D1F89BB809.jpeg

 

 

0B93DB7D-8E9F-46EF-AFCF-18BFCC318A3B.jpeg

 

FE691916-518A-4957-B43B-269F812A6C69.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yet another strike by you Peter, I totally agree that all four photos match.

I second that FROGSMILE. When I saw the picture of the Officer wearing his uniform I thought of the Officer with the 'mad eyes' look. Great spotting and work Peter!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For future reference concerning individual officers records it’s probably worth articulating how the posting system was designed.

The Indian Staff Corps was a branch of the Indian Army during the British epoch. In 1861** separate Staff Corps were formed for the Bengal, Madras and Bombay Armies, which were later combined into the Indian Army. They were meant to provide officers for the native regiments and for the staff, and army departments.

They were also designed to offer placements for civil and political appointments for posts which Indian Army officers might be eligible. Those officers who were already employed by the Army had the option to join the Staff Corps, or to stay employed under the old terms and conditions of service. In that sense, the Indian Staff Corps was seen by the majority of entrants as synonymous with the Regular Officer Corps of the Indian Armies. This is not to be confused with officers holding staff appointments.

To reduce confusion, the term "Indian Staff Corps" in relation to officers on regimental duty was withdrawn by Lord Kitchener during his unification of the Indian Army. From that time, officers were gazetted to the "Indian Army".

**in which year Honorable East India Company’s military forces were absorbed by the British State with the all European (i.e. white) battalion’s added to the infantry regiments of the line and the native regiments kept separate in a de facto, and discrete British-Indian Army.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Oswald Arthur Gerald Fitgerald, 18th King Georges' Own Lancers, (aka The Bengal Lancers), was a 1909 entrant, 1911 graduate , so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

Serving with a Native Cavalry Regiment, there is every chance he attended appropriately dress, although as I've been discovering there was also a formal dress for European Officers as well.

There are two officers in the 1910 picture in full fig for a Native Cavalry Regiment, and two also in the late 1911 one - but it my belief that they are different individuals. If I'm correct that would make the ones on the earlier picture 1909 entrants, and the ones on the later picture 1911 entrants.

So before we go into the picture question, I've re-arranged Oswalds life story as shown on the www british empire site, also the source of the picture of him, to put it into chronological order.

Oswald was born in India on 8 July 1875, the son of Colonel Sir Charles FitzGerald KCB. He was educated at Wellington College and went on to Sandhurst. He joined the 18th Bengal Lancers in 1898 and was appointed Adjutant on 8 April 1902. In 1904 ‘Fitz’, as he was called, was chosen to be ADC to Lord Kitchener, then became his Military Secretary in 1909. He was appointed GSO3 in Egypt and then Military Attache (GSO2) for Egypt, Sudan and Abbysinia in 1912. He was involved in a significant attempt on Kitchener’s life which he prevented.

Quote

‘Colonel FitzGerald saved the life of Lord Kitchener, Commander-in-Chief in India, in 1912. A plot to assassinate Lord Kitchener had been formed, and Colonel FitzGerald, having received information about it and having a photograph of the man who was to carry it out, was on the lookout for him, and detected him near the carriage in which Lord Kitchener was riding. Colonel FitzGerald fixed the would-be assassin with his eye, and at the same time covered Lord Kitchener, so that had the man fired, Colonel FitzGerald’s body would have received the bullet. Fortunately the man hesitated and was arrested.’

The photo shows him as a captain, wearing an undress frockcoat with his sword suspended from a gold and crimson striped lancer girdle. He has double gold lace stripes down the side of his trousers. The image is a detail from a group photo of Lord Kitchener and his staff.

Oswald was drowned on HMS Hampshire, on 5 June 1916, when it struck a mine in Scapa Flow, laid by a German submarine. He was on Lord Kitchener’s staff and he and 736 crew and passengers lost their lives. There were only 12 survivors and only two bodies were recovered. Oswald FitzGerald was one of them. His body was rested in St Matthew’s Church, Westminster where it was strewn with floral tributes before being taken to Victoria Station and railed to Eastbourne where it was transported on a gun carriage to All Saint’s Church. The Bishop officiated at the funeral and it was attended by officers, foreign delegations and his family. He was buried in Ocklynge Cemetery. https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/18thbengallancersfitzgerald.htm

So the montage below below shows :-
Top Row Left - 18th Bengal Lancers uniform as worm by the Regiments Lieutenant Colonel in 1896. https://www.armynavyairforce.co.uk/18th_bengal_lancers.htm
Top Row Centre. OswaldArthur George Fitzgerald.
Top Row Right. 18th Kings George Lancers European Officers Uniform currently for sale at www pembury com – a snip at £12,500! https://www.pemburys.com/product-page/18th-king-georges-own-lancers

Bottom Row - the Native Cavalry Officers from 1910 & 1911.

So the questions are:-

1. Are the Officers on the botton row all different individuals.
2. Who do you think is Oswald.
My vote goes to number 28 in the 1910 photo - but it could be none of them!

588346677_OswaldFitzGeraldpanelv1.png.5e91bbf865b534c0f30cc06aaad3eb73.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Captain Oswald Arthur Gerald Fitgerald, 18th King Georges' Own Lancers, (aka The Bengal Lancers), was a 1909 entrant, 1911 graduate , so should only appear on the 1910 picture.

Serving with a Native Cavalry Regiment, there is every chance he attended appropriately dress, although as I've been discovering there was also a formal dress for European Officers as well.

There are two officers in the 1910 picture in full fig for a Native Cavalry Regiment, and two also in the late 1911 one - but it my belief that they are different individuals. If I'm correct that would make the ones on the earlier picture 1909 entrants, and the ones on the later picture 1911 entrants.

So before we go into the picture question, I've re-arranged Oswalds life story as shown on the www british empire site, also the source of the picture of him, to put it into chronological order.

Oswald was born in India on 8 July 1875, the son of Colonel Sir Charles FitzGerald KCB. He was educated at Wellington College and went on to Sandhurst. He joined the 18th Bengal Lancers in 1898 and was appointed Adjutant on 8 April 1902. In 1904 ‘Fitz’, as he was called, was chosen to be ADC to Lord Kitchener, then became his Military Secretary in 1909. He was appointed GSO3 in Egypt and then Military Attache (GSO2) for Egypt, Sudan and Abbysinia in 1912. He was involved in a significant attempt on Kitchener’s life which he prevented.

The photo shows him as a captain, wearing an undress frockcoat with his sword suspended from a gold and crimson striped lancer girdle. He has double gold lace stripes down the side of his trousers. The image is a detail from a group photo of Lord Kitchener and his staff.

Oswald was drowned on HMS Hampshire, on 5 June 1916, when it struck a mine in Scapa Flow, laid by a German submarine. He was on Lord Kitchener’s staff and he and 736 crew and passengers lost their lives. There were only 12 survivors and only two bodies were recovered. Oswald FitzGerald was one of them. His body was rested in St Matthew’s Church, Westminster where it was strewn with floral tributes before being taken to Victoria Station and railed to Eastbourne where it was transported on a gun carriage to All Saint’s Church. The Bishop officiated at the funeral and it was attended by officers, foreign delegations and his family. He was buried in Ocklynge Cemetery. https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/18thbengallancersfitzgerald.htm

So the montage below below shows :-
Top Row Left - 18th Bengal Lancers uniform as worm by the Regiments Lieutenant Colonel in 1896. https://www.armynavyairforce.co.uk/18th_bengal_lancers.htm
Top Row Centre. OswaldArthur George Fitzgerald.
Top Row Right. 18th Kings George Lancers European Officers Uniform currently for sale at www pembury com – a snip at £12,500! https://www.pemburys.com/product-page/18th-king-georges-own-lancers

Bottom Row - the Native Cavalry Officers from 1910 & 1911.

So the questions are:-

1. Are the Officers on the botton row all different individuals.
2. Who do you think is Oswald.
My vote goes to number 28 in the 1910 photo - but it could be none of them!

588346677_OswaldFitzGeraldpanelv1.png.5e91bbf865b534c0f30cc06aaad3eb73.png

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Yes I agree, #28 is also in the top centre, unnumbered photo wearing the dark blue, double breasted frock coat and aiguillettes.

The Type A and Type B dress Uniforms of 18th KGO Lancers, below.

A special feature of the regiment’s pouch belt was a large Prince of Wales Feathers badge placed centrally on the front.  Prior to 1911 the regiment had been the 18th Prince of Wales’s Own Tiwana Lancers.  Notice also the distinctive half plastron front favoured by lancer regiments of the British-Indian Army for their Type A uniforms.

97EDA679-610A-445F-B9C3-2C3AED8F834D.jpeg

097F13FF-DF44-4471-BDBF-CC09C0F6AC47.jpeg

BE9B6231-0425-4E78-B35F-4E51D3D05259.jpeg

 

F8CFA14C-7FEA-4835-BFE9-48EE0877A3E1.jpeg

 

1D5006E6-E859-4251-8364-C0F6566186A4.jpeg

9226D63A-7AD0-4B28-85EC-C293D6A81091.jpeg

B49F2E5D-3E25-419A-858D-68924B72909E.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 09/02/2023 at 18:26, mrfrank said:

A re-post if the 1909 intake that feature in the earlier signed photo: 

 

 

64D46B74-3FA0-43A1-B888-86D5654A9DBC.jpeg

One more from @mrfranks list is Captain C M Wagstaff. Royal Engineers.  Pictured hereimage.png.25350adbde4169349c47d965dc93cff2.png link; https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C385326

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

One more from @mrfranks list is Captain C M Wagstaff. Royal Engineers. 

Great minds think alike, (well in our case one between two but we share nicely!), but he was the man I was working on. Hadn’t found the AWM picture so thanks – I’ve added it in the mix.

Cyril Mosley Wagstaff (1878-1934), Royal Engineers.
(Sometimes appears as Cyril Moseley Wagstaff)
1909 entrant & 1911 graduate, so only on the 1910 picture.

Possible match Officer 16. He does appear to be either Royal Engineers or Royal Artillery. But caveat – the March 1915 picture shows a man with two medal ribbons, whereas Officer 16 only wears one medal.

 

478407004_CyrilMosleyWagstaffpanelv1.png.1abb7646286081ad702c66582e83bdae.png

Comparison picture sources.

Group portrait of officers of the Anzac Corps Headquarters outside Shepheard's Hotel. March 1915. Reference AO1580. Stated to be in the Public Domain. Sourced https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C385326

February 1932 Major General Cyril “Moseley” Wagstaff,  National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw108229/Cyril-Moseley-Wagstaff?LinkID=mp75819&role=sit&rNo=0

Undated Geni https://www.geni.com/people/Maj-Gen-Cyril-Wagstaff-CB/6000000013677458886

He also appears in a picture on Wikipedia 20th January 1919 but too indistinct to be of use in facial comparison. Source Library of Congress – stated to be in the Public Domain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Wagstaff#/media/File:Lt._George_W._Sherwood_receives_Military_Cross,_illinoisinworldw00stat_0176.jpg

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, PRC said:

Possible match Officer 16. He does appear to be either Royal Engineers or Royal Artillery. But caveat – the March 1915 picture shows a man with two medal ribbons, whereas Officer 16 only wears one medal.

The way he is holding his head 1910, it looks like number 16 is our man in comparison with 1915. Thanks Peter. 1911 Harts list courtesy of Nat Library Scotland 'Ind Staff Coll' typed after his name etc. image.png.f3b2799036867c23195f243fdbf04dd7.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Great minds think alike, (well in our case one between two but we share nicely!), but he was the man I was working on. Hadn’t found the AWM picture so thanks – I’ve added it in the mix.

 

Cyril Mosley Wagstaff (1878-1934), Royal Engineers.
(Sometimes appears as Cyril Moseley Wagstaff)
1909 entrant & 1911 graduate, so only on the 1910 picture.

 

Possible match Officer 16. He does appear to be either Royal Engineers or Royal Artillery. But caveat – the March 1915 picture shows a man with two medal ribbons, whereas Officer 16 only wears one medal.

 

 

 

478407004_CyrilMosleyWagstaffpanelv1.png.1abb7646286081ad702c66582e83bdae.png

Comparison picture sources.

 

Group portrait of officers of the Anzac Corps Headquarters outside Shepheard's Hotel. Narch 1915. Reference AO1580. Stated to be in the Public Domain. Sourced https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C385326

 

February 1932 Major General Cyril “Moseley” Wagstaff,  National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw108229/Cyril-Moseley-Wagstaff?LinkID=mp75819&role=sit&rNo=0

 

Undated Geni https://www.geni.com/people/Maj-Gen-Cyril-Wagstaff-CB/6000000013677458886

 

He also appears in a picture on Wikipedia 20th January 1919 but too indistinct to be of use in facial comparison. Source Library of Congress – stated to be in the Public Domain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Wagstaff#/media/File:Lt._George_W._Sherwood_receives_Military_Cross,_illinoisinworldw00stat_0176.jpg

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

I think that all four photos are the same man, Peter, you’re getting very good at this.  The far left photo does show a RE uniform, you might recall my mention of the wavy line pouch belt that, even in black and white imagery, distinguishes at a glance RE from RA.

60AB0BBD-9F75-441E-857B-E8CEE8DE34D3.jpeg

A4E112EF-1FB7-402E-9D69-BA96F2068B47.jpeg

5EEA0FC7-7FCA-4A87-8C3F-350C3715E35C.jpeg

3ED30377-1082-4F12-8FAA-A3E9D95EC2E9.jpeg

227A18D2-A9B6-464F-BB5C-6E8BDAB53B11.jpeg

040FBBE9-E7C7-4398-B477-C9A3626E0C3A.jpeg

99B1CA79-7752-464F-9B8B-FB787191085A.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have just been looking for Captain M W Fordham (from @mrfranks list)  20th Duke of Cambridge's Own Infantry ( Brownlow's Punjabis). Nothing so far other than a 'drab uniform with Emerald Green Facing.' If that helps? From Harts list 1910. Courtesy of Nat Library Scotland; image.png.126ca40175d90d464593e2004de224e1.png

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I have just been looking for Captain M W Fordham (from @mrfranks list)  20th Duke of Cambridge's Own Infantry ( Brownlow's Punjabis). Nothing so far other than a 'drab uniform with Emerald Green Facing.' If that helps? From Harts list 1910. Courtesy of Nat Library Scotland; image.png.126ca40175d90d464593e2004de224e1.png

“Drab” in the Indian Army’s full dress referred to a pale khaki (taupe) colour and in uniform generally followed two basic designs, either rifles style, with a typical frogged front, or plain tunic style of a similar pattern to that worn by British Imperial line infantry and so with pointed (aka ‘mitred’) cuffs and the usual tracing decoration.  Brownlow’s wore the former style. 

90E38E23-FAA3-4603-8DA5-2B6C9F044949.jpeg

A15CC614-671D-4EA3-AA17-FDC9B18F3A16.jpeg

D6D3F475-5817-4266-9272-0C83E1FF6688.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

“Drab” in the Indian Army’s full dress referred to a pale khaki (taupe) colour and in uniform generally followed two basic designs, either rifles style, with a typical frogged front, or plain tunic style of a similar pattern to that worn by British Imperial line infantry and so with pointed (aka ‘mitred’) cuffs and the usual tracing decoration.  Brownlow’s wore the former style. 

Thank you for confirming these details FROGSMILE with your pictures that tell a thousand words, much appreciated. W M Fordham has signed the picture at the top so looking directly below we see an Officer dressed as we have discussed, Peters number 4, 1910. Is this him? Other Officers wearing 'Drab' are numbers 7, 11, 30, 41 and 51. As names have been found for 30 and 41 we are left with a choice of four Officers. The badge on the pouch belt of number 4 looks more square without a crown protruding from the top, whereas 7, 11 and 51 seem to have the crown protruding.  

334EB09F-776D-468E-A62F-8666D825DDDE.jpeg.c1687e937613a397161d35aa05c222ce-001.jpg

 

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 09/02/2023 at 16:48, PRC said:

And you can never go too far wrong with a bit of numbering - although we'll need to be clear if its the 1910 numbering or the 1911 numbering if it gets used to identify individuals..

176963747_QuettaStaffCollege19101911sourcedGWFownerJAH1979Croppedandtidiedandnumbered.png.993b972fb049b3e59725476af1d80d80.png

Picture reposted to help my last ponderings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Picture reposted to help my last ponderings.

It’s difficult because the B&W rules out identifying via facing colour and so the pouch belt badges are our only clear clue to identification when no headdress is being worn.  The pouch belt badges were usually hall marked silver for the officers and works of art from silversmiths & jewellers in London, Birmingham and Edinburgh.

Unfortunately the design of the badges altered each time the unit title was changed, which happened around, e.g. 1861, 1883, 1903, 1910, 1922 and 1937.

I’ve posted a photo of a native officer above and it looks as if the badge was squarish, with a scroll at top in the period pre 1903.  Before that it was wider with a full laurel wreath bearing the then two principal battle honours, as shown below, and before WW1 it changed to the Rifle Brigade style wreathed cross that I’ve shown above and now again below.

If I had to make a wildcard bet it would be on #7. 

02ADAEFD-0F75-4CE1-9BB5-1BD10C5D6F3F.jpeg

4E5A7D10-2F3D-460C-91A1-90E3123C3199.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Peters number 4, 1910. Is this him? Other Officers wearing 'Drab' are numbers 7, 11, 30, 41 and 51. As names have been found for 30 and 41 we are left with a choice of four Officers. The badge on the pouch belt of number 4 looks more square without a crown protruding from the top, whereas 7, 11 and 51 seem to have the crown protruding.  

Bob,

A great number of the unaccounted \ unmatched names from the 1909, 1910 & 1911 intakes are such Officers. I've had a PM that holds out the possibility that we might be able to get higher resolution images of the 1910 picture - if that happens and if the resolution is such that we can make out individual regiment numbers then my face-matching attempts will not be needed.

Obviously we can't take that for granted so I'll continue looking for named pictures of the men believed to be present.

When I've had a run through of the names on the 1909 intake looking for images, and done a summary of the names on the 1910 picture, my next thought was to produce updated versions of the 1910 & 1911 numbered pictures and cross through the "known" faces. There are a number of individuals for whom I have pictures available to make a comparison but can't spot a clear match.

So for example for the 1911 picture with 60 individuals present, picking out one matching face can be hard. But we have a good \ definate candidate for 43 of them, so take those out of the picture so to speak, and a match may become more self-evident.

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s difficult because the B&W rules out identifying via facing colour and so the pouch belt badges are our only clear clue to identification when no headdress is being worn......

Thank you FROGSMILE.

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

A great number of the unaccounted \ unmatched names......

Thank you Peter. From the signatures I see on the 1910, working from WH Fordham/20th D C O just now, are also, D G Ridgeway/3rd Q A O Goorkha Rifles, W S

Maxwell Scott/ Scottish Rifles, F S Keen/45th Rattrays Sikhs and J A Longridge/Supply and Transport. All with the rank of Captain. Cheers, Bob.

Edit here; Lt Colonel Frederick Stewart Keen/45th Rattrays Sikhs. Red tunic with white Facings. His medals were sold on this site. Quite a good account of his career but no picture of him so far.  link;https://spink.com/lot/21001000339

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually to follow through on that post, we have the following left from the 1910 intake, all of who should appear in both pictures.

John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse)
John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis
Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras
Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers
Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.

Plus we have Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry, a 1909 entrant but a 1912 graduate. We don’t know if he had a year off for some reason – ill-health perhaps?, and so potentially wouldn’t be Quetta Staff College at the time the 1910 picture.

And looking at the instances where we have matching but unknown faces on the two pictures gives us the following five pairs with the 1910 number at the start and the 1911 one in square brackets at the end :-

14. An officer who is currently believed to be either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers on the 1911 Picture. However we now know he is very likely to be a 1910 entrant, which narrows things down – possibly Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers needs another look.[47]
253938787_SikhPioneerOfficerpanelv1.png.313908364027e39022489760d581c740.png

15: Native cavalry? As a 1910 entrant that shifts the focus to John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) as a possibility.[25]
1224440810_PossibleNativeCavalryOfficerPanelv1.png.b84868b5d683907956e7a5146535568b.png

18. Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar. As a 1910 entrant that puts John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles and William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles in the frame.

19. Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)? As a 1910 entrant previously unaccounted for I believe that narrows us down to John Cecil Macrae, (19th Punjabis),  Laurence Balfour Cloete, (37th Dogras) and Edgar Claude Kensington, (130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis) – I’ll take the two unaccounted Gurkha Officers out of consideration and we have a contender for Carruthers or the Garwhal Rifles against number 18.[36]

818217105_Officer36comparisonpanelv1.png.866e6f36db69942ab71003c12730f637.png

33. Infantry. No medals? This might be 1st Prince of Wales’s Own Gurkha Rifles.  Another possibility is a 130th King George's Own Baluchis that also featured PoW feathers.  The former seems closer but the scroll under the badge doesn’t chime.1910 entrant.[43]
1925035409_Officer43comparisonpanelv1.png.8b566c523aa041662b9dcbd9305ff17f.png
54. Gurkha ? No Medal. 1910 enrolee. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.[27]
1933658002_Officer27comparisonpanelv3.png.409fc2dd96f5d95d4f4b5a08776f9808.png

Is there anything more than can be done to firm up which photographs go with which name.

Cheers,
Peter    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Actually to follow through on that post, we have the following left from the 1910 intake, all of who should appear in both pictures.

 

John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse)
John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis
Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras
Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers
Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.

 

Plus we have Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry, a 1909 entrant but a 1912 graduate. We don’t know if he had a year off for some reason – ill-health perhaps?, and so potentially wouldn’t be Quetta Staff College at the time the 1910 picture.

 

And looking at the instances where we have matching but unknown faces on the two pictures gives us the following five pairs with the 1910 number at the start and the 1911 one in square brackets at the end :-

 

14. An officer who is currently believed to be either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers on the 1911 Picture. However we now know he is very likely to be a 1910 entrant, which narrows things down – possibly Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers needs another look.[47]
253938787_SikhPioneerOfficerpanelv1.png.313908364027e39022489760d581c740.png

15: Native cavalry? As a 1910 entrant that shifts the focus to John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) as a possibility.[25]
1224440810_PossibleNativeCavalryOfficerPanelv1.png.b84868b5d683907956e7a5146535568b.png

18. Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar. As a 1910 entrant that puts John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles and William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles in the frame.

19. Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)? As a 1910 entrant previously unaccounted for I believe that narrows us down to John Cecil Macrae, (19th Punjabis),  Laurence Balfour Cloete, (37th Dogras) and Edgar Claude Kensington, (130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis) – I’ll take the two unaccounted Gurkha Officers out of consideration and we have a contender for Carruthers or the Garwhal Rifles against number 18.[36]

 

818217105_Officer36comparisonpanelv1.png.866e6f36db69942ab71003c12730f637.png

33. Infantry. No medals? This might be 1st Prince of Wales’s Own Gurkha Rifles.  Another possibility is a 130th King George's Own Baluchis that also featured PoW feathers.  The former seems closer but the scroll under the badge doesn’t chime.1910 entrant.[43]
1925035409_Officer43comparisonpanelv1.png.8b566c523aa041662b9dcbd9305ff17f.png
54. Gurkha ? No Medal. 1910 enrolee. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.[27]
1933658002_Officer27comparisonpanelv3.png.409fc2dd96f5d95d4f4b5a08776f9808.png

Is there anything more than can be done to firm up which photographs go with which name.

 

Cheers,
Peter    

 

There’s a strong likelihood that #14 and #47 (clearly the same man) is likely to be 81st Pioneers, Peter.  Or at least the collar badges and white facings match that.  Does it match with any names? 

24E5F2D0-DF3E-4BEF-9BCB-240A2AF4C2FA.jpeg

8B0F9C65-E015-48AC-B013-C289F412C6D1.jpeg

 

2A64ADA5-75B6-4D74-9928-98DBC1C8AF6F.jpeg

5970C508-B7A4-4BED-9AFA-84CFACC14135.jpeg

D000CD41-69A3-4FDD-AC7E-23592CD9E93B.jpeg

AD277B0B-8C50-49A0-A70C-28A1CC6743A3.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Does it match with any names? 

Not a unit associated with any of the names provided by newspaper reports for entrants, graduates, or Harts Annual List that we have considered so far.

There are a couple of Royal Engineers with no unit identified, but they were in the 1909 intake and graduated in 1911, so shouldn't have still been at Quetta at the time of Haigs visit in late 1911.

What I don't know is what happened if someone dropped out.The reports on the exam results for admission include individuals who passed the exam but for who there wasn't a vacancy. Were they on a waiting list, or did they have to have another go at passing the exam the following year? We also have other individuals admitted for just one year and then they are shown as graduating. So if there were a mix of courses of different duration, that might be a possible explanation of why I find pictures of the officers named on the student lists but who don't appear to be present in the Staff College group photographs.

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Not a unit associated with any of the names provided by newspaper reports for entrants, graduates, or Harts Annual List that we have considered so far.

We have Alfred Charles Samuel Burden Ellis on the 1908 Harts list. He is listed as 'Unattached list' and 121 Pioneers. 2 Lt.  12 year service.  Born 9th June 1876. I am looking into him further but saw your post Peter and thought to say before anyone went off down another rabbit hole. Cheers, Bob. I'll be back! Edit 2; Here we have Captain Ellis,  1911 harts Army list. 121 Pioneers. Staff College. Scarlet with white facing. @FROGSMILE  Edit; Also in the 1910 Harts list. Courtesy nat lib Scotland https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100785273

image.pngimage.png.5920f589d3b1a8a0a7e17a6113161ef4.png

Edited by Bob Davies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Not a unit associated with any of the names provided by newspaper reports for entrants, graduates, or Harts Annual List that we have considered so far.

There are a couple of Royal Engineers with no unit identified, but they were in the 1909 intake and graduated in 1911, so shouldn't have still been at Quetta at the time of Haigs visit in late 1911.

What I don't know is what happened if someone dropped out.The reports on the exam results for admission include individuals who passed the exam but for who there wasn't a vacancy. Were they on a waiting list, or did they have to have another go at passing the exam the following year? We also have other individuals admitted for just one year and then they are shown as graduating. So if there were a mix of courses of different duration, that might be a possible explanation of why I find pictures of the officers named on the student lists but who don't appear to be present in the Staff College group photographs.

Cheers,
Peter

Then I’ll need to check if any other pioneer regiments had white facings, I think it’s possible that the collar badges were generic for some of them if not all. The Indian Army had a lot of pioneer regiments at that time (Lord Robert’s was a big fan) but they were reduced later.

As regards the staff college course the general principle was certainly to make maximum efficient use of the time available.  I don’t think that there was a modular concept as we would know it now, but the course would have probably been run in terms or stages with natural breaks.  I suppose it’s possible that an occasional student might not complete the curriculum on an initial attempt and then join a subsequent course for the part he missed, perhaps replacing someone who dropped out.  There’s always a spirit of pragmatism with these Army courses.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...