Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[Bob Davies]

39 minutes ago, PRC said:

I may be missing it but there doesn't appear to be a link from the main page to the one with the 1901 picture

Try this one Peter. https://www.allaboutsikhs.com/biographies/sikh-warriors/rattrays-sikhs/

[PRC]

11 hours ago, mrfrank said:

With reference to the signatures in doubt/unaccounted that Peter posted, I think I agree that one is ‘JC Macrae’ and the position of the signature would suggest that he is #53 on the 1910 photo. Should appear on the 1911 photo, but no apparent match to #53, but perhaps he wasn’t present for the later photo that day? 
In the AL ‘war services’ section it only lists him as ‘Aden 1903-04 Operations in the interior’, but no reference to a medal awarded.

#53 is without medals.

37 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I believe that 53 1910 photo is J C Macrae mrfrank. Both have a big dimple in the chin and the  faces looks too similar.

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

His regiment appears to be Sikh.  Sikh regiments favoured the striped part of a Sikhs headdress wrapped around their white helmets as a distinctive pagri, but more importantly at least one of their regiments favoured the unusual cuff mitre with a longer than usual point as seen in this case.  However, it seems also to be a regiment that did not favour a collar badges.

I don't know if this comparison helps, hinders or is just plain redundant

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

On my initial run through I'd rejected officer 53 as a possible match for the named picture of John Cecil Macrae because:-

• Parting and what it said about the shape of his head, particularly his forehead
• Inner ear shape
• Whether the chin was a blemish on either or both photographs
• As part of the 1910 intake the absence of a likely match on the later Haig photograph.

Individually those are all explainable, to me the cumulative total was enough to rule him out. I'm glad I'm not the only pair of eyes making these judgements

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/02/2023 at 10:35, PRC said:

Adding the 1901 pic to the mix

Thanks Frogmile - I must have done umpteen searches on 45th Rattrays Sikhs  \ 45th Sikhs \ Rattrays Sikhs over the last week and have frequently looked at their main page on the British Empire site but never come across that standalone one.

I may be missing it but there doesn't appear to be a link from the main page to the one with the 1901 picture https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/indianinfantry/45thsikhs.htm

Very glad you're more familiar with the goodies they have salted away there

Cheers,
Peter

It’s on the right of that page, where there’s a vertical column of sub-headings.  Look for the one “Post Mutiny Uniforms” and click on it.  The layout is the same for each regiment, but the number of images varies.  Also check out the “soldiers” section just above it.

 I certainly think that you’ve correctly matched him in all four photographs.

Also #53 matches with the other two photos of John Macrae.  That’s another successful ID by you!

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

11 hours ago, mrfrank said:

I’ll have to amicably disagree with you there as I’m of the opinion that the majority of signatures have been placed in relation to their position in the photo. 
EG Dunn is I believe #23 on the 1910 photo. Royal Irish Rifles badge just visible on the crossbelt. Signed in the correct place just above where  T Fraser did. Both correspond to their position in the photo. If W Little (6th Gurkha Rifles) followed their example then he’s likely #50. Entitlement to IGS Medal + clasp for Waziristan 1901-2 also appears to fit.

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree, and #50 is indeed 6th Gurkha Rifles.  They were unusual at the time for a Gurkha regiment in wearing crossed kukri collar badges.

10 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks Bob…..i was looking so much at medals that I completely missed the crossed Kukri collar badges! 
 

There is a picture of a much older William Campbell Little that I have linked to previously. https://ornaverum.org/family/little/little-william-campbell-colonel.html

While there are undoubtedly some similarities, unless the negative was reversed in the printing process on the later picture, then he has completely changed where his hair parted. Not a showstopper, nor is the apparent lack of a match for him on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, even though as a 1910 entrant he would most likely have been present. For me it lowers the match from probable to possible - but as always, others may see different

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, PRC said:

There is a picture of a much older William Campbell Little that I have linked to previously. https://ornaverum.org/family/little/little-william-campbell-colonel.html

While there are undoubtedly some similarities, unless the negative was reversed in the printing process on the later picture, then he has completely changed where his hair parted. Not a showstopper, nor is the apparent lack of a match for him on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, even though as a 1910 entrant he would most likely have been present. For me it lowers the match from probable to possible - but as always, others may see different

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Mouth, eyes and nose all suggest the same man to me.  I think you’re correct.  Also see pouch belt badge.

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

I don't know if this comparison helps, hinders or is just plain redundant

Thank you Peter, I am quite sure these are the same man. I think you are also correct on Little and Keen.  The  undecipered signature has me foxed but we may get there yet! I want it to read 'Vere Gordon Menzies' but that I think is wishful thinking. I will bet my rum ration that number 4 1910 is W M Fordham, see my ramblings page 11 of this topic. @FROGSMILE   thinks number 7 but he may have changed his mind as it was a while ago now and more has come to light?

Edited 22 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you Peter, I am quite sure these are the same man. I think you are also correct on Little and Keen.  The  undecipered signature has me foxed but we may get there yet! I want it to read 'Vere Gordon Menzies' but that I think is wishful thinking. I will bet my rum ration that number 4 1910 is W M Fordham, see my ramblings page 11 of this topic. @FROGSMILE   thinks number 7 but he may have changed his mind as it was a while ago now and more has come to light?

Given the drab rifles tunic and dark facings, the differential will largely be determined by the shape of their pouch belt plates Bob.  If you look you can see that #4’s is roughly rectangular in outline, whereas #7’s is circular.  Can you remind me what regiment Fordham was in?

Edited 22 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Given the drab rifles tunic and dark facings, the differential will largely be determined by the shape of their pouch belt plates Bob.  If you look you can see that #4’s is roughly rectangular in outline, whereas #7’s is circular.  Can you remind me what regiment Fordham was in?

William Marshall Fordham, 20^th D.C.O.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

William Marshall Fordham, 20^th D.C.O.

Sikhs?

[edit] Brownlow’s Punjabis.

Edited 22 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Sikhs?

Brownlows Punjabis

[Bob Davies]

On 16/02/2023 at 15:45, FROGSMILE said:

It’s difficult because the B&W rules out identifying via facing colour and so the pouch belt badges are our only clear clue to identification when no headdress is being worn.  The pouch belt badges were usually hall marked silver for the officers and works of art from silversmiths & jewellers in London, Birmingham and Edinburgh.

Unfortunately the design of the badges altered each time the unit title was changed, which happened around, e.g. 1861, 1883, 1903, 1910, 1922 and 1937.

I’ve posted a photo of a native officer above and it looks as if the badge was squarish, with a scroll at top in the period pre 1903.  Before that it was wider with a full laurel wreath bearing the then two principal battle honours, as shown below, and before WW1 it changed to the Rifle Brigade style wreathed cross that I’ve shown above and now again below.

If I had to make a wildcard bet it would be on #7. 

This post FROGSMILE.

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

This post FROGSMILE.

Looking at the shape of the pouch belt plate of #4 I would say he is Fordham.  The DCO title scroll at the base of the badge gives the elongated rectangular appearance when viewed at distance, as opposed to the more perfect circle of #7.

The facings on drab tunics of the 20th DCO were green.  Their 1860s pouch badge was a wider spread Laurel wreath, with honours and cypher.  Their 1880s pouch badge was in the shape of a cross.  Then in 1902 it changed to be more an arrangement of Laurel leaves, cypher and honours before changing to the badge below when the unit title changed to DCOs.

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looking at the shape of the pouch belt plate of #4 I would say he is Fordham.  The DCO title scroll at the base of the badge gives the elongated rectangular appearance, as opposed to the more perfect circle of #7.

Thanks again FROGSMILE. If Peter @PRC turns up a picture of him, which he may do yet and we are wrong then I will stand two rum rations Fordham had quite a career, he was Military Attache in Tehran 1911. I went down that route but no pictures turned up.

Edited 22 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thanks again FROGSMILE. If Peter turns up a picture of him which he may do yet and we are wrong then I will stand two rum rations Fordham had quite a career, he was Military Attache in Tehran 1911. I went down that route but no pictures turned up.

I think he’s probably wearing the uppermost badge with cypher at centre from circa 1902.  The lowermost badge (a readoption of the cross) was introduced circa 1910, so he’d not got it yet, which isn’t unusual given he was away from the regiment at the time.

Edited 22 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 08/02/2023 at 00:03, charlie962 said:

As already mentioned the newspapers give details of those qualifying and those graduating each year. Are you happy you have identified the relevant entry years represented in the photo? 

Charlie 

Edit. Graduation list for relevant years, courtesy findmypast.

Graduates 1911 entered 1909

 

Graduates 1912 entered 1910

 

Graduates 1913 entered 1911

With one of the 1910 admissions, Captain William Archibald Smail Walker, 46th Punjabis having slipped through the net so far, I went back and tried to double-check on the various original lists provided

As well as Walker we have-

Captain Charles Robertson, 19th Bengal Lancers, (Fanes Horse), a student who was admitted in 1910 and graduated as a Major in 1912, so should be on both pictures. (Major Robertson and I have "history", so I'll check my notes and come back on him!).
Captain Vire Gordon Menzies, Highland Light Infantry, a student who was admitted 1911, (not 1909) and graduated 1913, so should only be on the Haig visit picture.

As we were also building up a small number of students who should be on one or other picture, if not both, but can't be found, to then make up the numbers  I also checked out the staff members from the July 1910, January 1911 and January 1912 Indian Army Lists previously posted. I had to double check the source as we have had two lists that were ascribed to January 1911, but one introduces other staff members and the other didn't. The one I am working from can be found here https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284982/page/n51/mode/1up?view=theater

The one additional staff member I could identify was in the July 1910 Indian Army List and was Major Colin Lawrence MacNab, Royal Sussex Regiment. As a Brigadier General he would die in the UK on the 13th October 1918. I don't think there is a match for him on the 1910 picture.

Picture source:-

Undated and looks like a staff officer - Lives of the First World War https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/2855477

Others available include:-

The Genealogist, although he is not identified individually, just tagged. The whole picture is captioned "10 Captains 1st Battalian Royal Sussex Regiment Rawal Pindi March 1912" when MacNab was a Lieutenant-Colonel.I believe he may be sat front and centre. Unfortunately too low quality to be of use for facial comparison - but apparently there is a higher quality version available to subscribers. https://www.thegenealogist.com/search/advanced/image/archive/10-captains-1st-battalian-royal-sussex-regiment-rawal-pindi-march-1912-full/?id=848936123

The Sussex County archive also has a photograph album,

RSR/PH/1/37 Album of photographs compiled by Lieutenant-Colonel Colin L Macnab while commanding the 1st Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment, in India 1911-1913.Includes photographs of the battalion at training, parade, and sports, and group photographs of officers, non-commissioned officers, and sports teams. (86 Photographs).

and
RSR/PH/10/7 Photograph of Lieutenant-Colonel Colin L Macnab, Commanding Officer, 1st Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment, 1911-1915
http://185.121.204.173/searchonline/

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

With one of the 1910 admissions, Captain William Archibald Smail Walker, 46th Punjabis having slipped through the net so far, I went back and tried to double-check on the various original lists provided

As well as Walker we have-

Captain Charles Robertson, 19th Bengal Lancers, (Fanes Horse), a student who was admitted in 1910 and graduated as a Major in 1912, so should be on both pictures. (Major Robertson and I have "history", so I'll check my notes and come back on him!).
Captain Vire Gordon Menzies, Highland Light Infantry, a student who was admitted 1911, (not 1909) and graduated 1913, so should only be on the Haig visit picture.

As we were also building up a small number of students who should be on one or other picture, if not both, but can't be found, to then make up the numbers  I also checked out the staff members from the July 1910, January 1911 and January 1912 Indian Army Lists previously posted. I had to double check the source as we have had two lists that were ascribed to January 1911, but one introduces other staff members and the other didn't. The one I am working from can be found here https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284982/page/n51/mode/1up?view=theater

The one additional staff member I could identify was in the July 1910 Indian Army List and was Major Colin Lawrence MacNab, Royal Sussex Regiment. As a Brigadier General he would die in the UK on the 13th October 1918. I don't think there is a match for him on the 1910 picture.

Picture source:-

Undated and looks like a staff officer - Lives of the First World War https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/2855477

Others available include:-

The Genealogist, although he is not identified individually, just tagged. The whole picture is captioned "10 Captains 1st Battalian Royal Sussex Regiment Rawal Pindi March 1912" when MacNab was a Lieutenant-Colonel.I believe he may be sat front and centre. Unfortunately too low quality to be of use for facial comparison - but apparently there is a higher quality version available to subscribers. https://www.thegenealogist.com/search/advanced/image/archive/10-captains-1st-battalian-royal-sussex-regiment-rawal-pindi-march-1912-full/?id=848936123

The Sussex County archive also has a photograph album,

RSR/PH/1/37 Album of photographs compiled by Lieutenant-Colonel Colin L Macnab while commanding the 1st Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment, in India 1911-1913.Includes photographs of the battalion at training, parade, and sports, and group photographs of officers, non-commissioned officers, and sports teams. (86 Photographs).

and
RSR/PH/10/7 Photograph of Lieutenant-Colonel Colin L Macnab, Commanding Officer, 1st Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment, 1911-1915
http://185.121.204.173/searchonline/

Cheers,
Peter

I agree that MacNab is seated centrally in the group photo, his face relatively clear and recognisable.  In the larger, uppermost photo, he wears the gorget tabs and forage cap of a General Officer (two rows lace on peak), as a Brigadier General, circa ww1.

Edited 22 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

One more from Ancestry for you Peter @PRC et al. Again to be taken with a pinch of salt but he might be a match? Courtesy of Fold 3 which is correct, other pictures may not be.  Ernest George Dunn DSO. 

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

One more from Ancestry for you Peter @PRC et al. Again to be taken with a pinch of salt but he might be a match? Courtesy of Fold 3 which is correct, other pictures may not be.  Ernest George Dunn DSO. 

The officer in whites has an RIR pagri badge on his white helmet and a regimental pouch belt, plus black regimental buttons.  In the lowermost photo he is [edit] a field officer on the general staff in a formation headquarters and still featuring his black regimental buttons.

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 22/02/2023 at 00:35, mrfrank said:

EG Dunn is I believe #23 on the 1910 photo. Royal Irish Rifles badge just visible on the crossbelt.

3 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

One more from Ancestry for you Peter @PRC et al. Again to be taken with a pinch of salt but he might be a match? Courtesy of Fold 3 which is correct, other pictures may not be.  Ernest George Dunn DSO. 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The officer in whites has an RIR pagri badge on his white helmet and a regimental pouch belt, plus black regimental buttons.  In the lowermost photo he is a full colonel on the staff and still featuring his black regimental buttons.

I was hoping to find more pictures of Ernest, although I also knew it was unlikely given the nature of my interest. He is shown as a Brigade Major 18th Infantry Brigade, Indian Expeditionary Force "D" from the 6th November 1914 to the 1st March 1916, and then there is a gap until February 1919. The reason for the gap goes back to my interest. The 18th (Belgaum) Brigade, which included the 2nd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, was in the ill-fated 6th (Poona) Division which allowed itself under the leadership of General Townshend to become besieged at Kut-el-Amara, eventually surrendering on the 29th April 1916. While many of the captured offices led a life of comparative ease, the harsh treatment of the other ranks captured is well known.

Only the date confused me - with the siege ending on the 29th April why did the appointment end on the 1st March. I did wonder if he was of the groups sent downstream with the wounded, (or indeed was wounded or sick), and was then unable to rejoin the Brigade before Kut was cut-off. But this report from the archives of the International Red Cross Committee shows he was indeed captured at the end of the siege.

Image sourced https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2832379/708/50013/

I've tried my sources for pictures of the captured officers from Kut, but have drawn a blank. I don't know if @charlie962 has come across him before.

So assuming he is the man in the two pictures found by @Bob Davies, and that the identification of him by @mrfrank is a good one, (and no reason to think it isn't), then the comparison would look like this:-

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Do we think the medal ribbon on the medal on Officer 23 looks comparable to the one on the right hand end as we look at it on the later Staff Officer picture

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

I was hoping to find more pictures of Ernest, although I also knew it was unlikely given the nature of my interest. He is shown as a Brigade Major 18th Infantry Brigade, Indian Expeditionary Force "D" from the 6th November 1914 to the 1st March 1916, and then there is a gap until February 1919. The reason for the gap goes back to my interest. The 18th (Belgaum) Brigade, which included the 2nd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, was in the ill-fated 6th (Poona) Division which allowed itself under the leadership of General Townshend to become besieged at Kut-el-Amara, eventually surrendering on the 29th April 1916. While many of the captured offices led a life of comparative ease, the harsh treatment of the other ranks captured is well known.

Only the date confused me - with the siege ending on the 29th April why did the appointment end on the 1st March. I did wonder if he was of the groups sent downstream with the wounded, (or indeed was wounded or sick), and was then unable to rejoin the Brigade before Kut was cut-off. But this report from the archives of the International Red Cross Committee shows he was indeed captured at the end of the siege.

Image sourced https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2832379/708/50013/

I've tried my sources for pictures of the captured officers from Kut, but have drawn a blank. I don't know if @charlie962 has come across him before.

So assuming he is the man in the two pictures found by @Bob Davies, and that the identification of him by @mrfrank is a good one, (and no reason to think it isn't), then the comparison would look like this:-

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Do we think the medal ribbon on the medal on Officer 23 looks comparable to the one on the right hand end as we look at it on the later Staff Officer picture

Cheers,
Peter

I won’t comment on the medal ribbons Peter as it’s not an aspect I feel I have sufficient knowledge of, but I am entirely convinced that all three photos show Dunn.

The image below shows the 1905 pattern plate with the South Africa 1900-1902 honour scroll added above the title scroll and below the Sphinx.

 

Edited 24 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

43 minutes ago, PRC said:

On 22/02/2023 at 01:35, mrfrank said:

EG Dunn is I believe #23 on the 1910 photo. Royal Irish Rifles badge just visible on the crossbelt.

4 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

One more from Ancestry for you Peter @PRC et al. Again to be taken with a pinch of salt but he might be a match? Courtesy of Fold 3 which is correct, other pictures may not be.  Ernest George Dunn DSO. 

Expand  

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The officer in whites has an RIR pagri badge on his white helmet and a regimental pouch belt, plus black regimental buttons.  In the lowermost photo he is a full colonel on the staff and still featuring his black regimental buttons.

Expand  

I was hoping to find more pictures of Ernest, although I also knew it was unlikely given the nature of my interest. He is shown as a Brigade Major 18th Infantry Brigade, Indian Expeditionary Force "D" from the 6th November 1914 to the 1st March 1916, and then there is a gap until February 1919. The reason for the gap goes back to my interest. The 18th (Belgaum) Brigade, which included the 2nd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, was in the ill-fated 6th (Poona) Division which allowed itself under the leadership of General Townshend to become besieged at Kut-el-Amara, eventually surrendering on the 29th April 1916. While many of the captured offices led a life of comparative ease, the harsh treatment of the other ranks captured is well known.

Only the date confused me - with the siege ending on the 29th April why did the appointment end on the 1st March. I did wonder if he was of the groups sent downstream with the wounded, (or indeed was wounded or sick), and was then unable to rejoin the Brigade before Kut was cut-off. But this report from the archives of the International Red Cross Committee shows he was indeed captured at the end of the siege.

Image sourced https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2832379/708/50013/

I've tried my sources for pictures of the captured officers from Kut, but have drawn a blank.

Major EG Dunn

I'll check but I concentrate on ORs. 

Dunn was 2i/c 1st Bn Ulster Rifles just after the war so must be a photo in a Regimental magazine. I saw a newspaper photo but too dark to be useful.

Charlie 

Edit. Try Ulster Rifles Museum. Nothing yet on AMOT but should be in process.

"The digitisation process and other related work continues but was delayed due to the global pandemic restrictions. Material will be made available during 2022.

 

5 Waring Street

Belfast BT1 2EW

 

 028 9023 2086

 assistantrurmuseum@yahoo.co.uk. "

Edited 23 February , 2023 by charlie962

[Bob Davies]

Just now, PRC said:

So assuming he is the man in the two pictures found by @Bob Davies, and that the identification of him by @mrfrank is a good one, (and no reason to think it isn't), then the comparison would look like this:-

Very interesting about his capture at Kut Peter. Thanks for the regimental insignia details FROGSMILE. Some more details on the origin of the pictures I found and posted. Ernest George Dunn was born in Bombay 31st May 1877. Father was Owen William Dunn and engineer in the East India Company. Another Edit; His grandfather, born in Ireland was a Lt in the Marines 1851 cencus. Ernest George Dunn features on 4 Ancestry trees, none of which have any pictures of him. However the pictures come from a 'man' on his own with no tree around him. It seems as if the tree owner had found these pictures and thought to post them, as 'Ernest George Dunn' was good friend of a lady in her family tree who knew him and was very fond of him. This lady had Married an Officer who was born in Bombay 1863 and had a successful military career. He probably met  'Ernest George Dunn' somewhere along the way. The said lady seems to have spent time with Ernest after her husband had died in 1944. The owner of the tree calls him 'Dick Dunn'. Yes, 'Dick' is short for 'Richard' but this as I know is not always the case. I know a chap called 'Dick Dobbs' his first name is not Richard! Edit; To finish I think that this is the correct man and pictures as I can't find another 'Ernest George Dunn' that would fit the bill. You have made a good match here Peter. Last Edit on this  for you @PRC War Diaries (Private): At the Siege of Kut-al-Amara, and afterwards as a prisoner of war in Turkey, by Col EG Dunn, BM 18th Brigade, and GSO 6th Indian Division,  at the national archives, unfortunatly not digitised yet. Link; https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C627920

Edited 23 February , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

On 21/02/2023 at 22:14, PRC said:

 

The first and second ones at a push might be D,S. Crombie and J.C Macrae. Any guesses as to the others?

Right hand signature I believe reads 'John Arthur Muirhead'. It starts Jo*n****muirheD. The letter r looks like a G.  The letter i is dotted well past the letter but that is what happens. Any thoughts anyone?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Bob,

The second signature from right, I read as:-  

W. A. S. Walker

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[mrfrank]

9 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Right hand signature I believe reads 'John Arthur Muirhead'. It starts Jo*n****muirheD. The letter r looks like a G.  The letter i is dotted well past the letter but that is what happens. Any thoughts anyone?

I spent a long time looking at that signature without working it out, but I reckon you’ve got it Bob. He certainly hasn’t signed the mount per his location in the group. Quite the opposite in fact!