Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

According to Wikipedia, Douglas Haig left India in December 1911 to take up the role of General Officer Commanding, Aldershot Command. So this picture pre-dates that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig

And from the admissions \ graduations notices it seems they occur around March \ April each year or even possibly earlier - (does anyone have a definative on that?).

So unfortunately what ever pattern uniform Captain Cloete was wearing in late 1911 a few months before his graduation had on the face of it nothing to do with his appointment as a Brigade Major in October 1912. I suspect it's one of those mysteries that even access to any surviving officers records might not explain - and I'm not seeing any long papers catalogued in the UK National Archive.

Frustrating, but I don't think it's significant enough to bring up the issue of whether the two pictures are of different men.

Cheers,
Peter

Definitely the same man Peter, I don’t think that was ever in doubt.  However, the tunic in the 1911 photo is clearly that laid down for “officers of the Indian Army not on the cadre of a unit”.  Also, all scarlet clad infantry featured an Austrian knot formed from Russia braid above the V of their cuffs.  An interesting and relatively easy exercise to put this in perspective would be to examine all the cuffs in the photo of scarlet clad officers and see how many have the Austrian knot and how many the plain and unadorned pointed V cuff.  

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

When we just had the Haig visit photograph I compared the known picture of Alexander Bertram Lindsay to Officer 27, and it was well received.

However when the 1910 Staff College picture became available it became obvious that officer was there as well and so must be one of the 1910 entrants - and Major Lindsay was a 1911 entrant.

@FROGSMILE commented at the time when we first compared Officer 27 from 1911 with Officer 54 from 1910 - "Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar."

By co-incidence I was just updating that side by side as I believe he is the last of the Native Infantry Officers we have outstanding from the 1910 intake - Captain John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles.

This is by nothing more than a process of elimination - if Cloete is the 37th Dogras Officer [19 & 36] and Kensington is 130th Prince of Wales's Own Baluchi's [33 & 43], and assuming there have been no mis-identifications, then Carruthers is the remaining match for a Native Infantry Officer [54 & 27] who was part of the 1910 intake.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Does the Helmet with badge that he is holding in the 1910 picture provide any mores clues as to the unit of this man?

Cheers,
Peter

As promised I’ve gone through all the Infantry “Regiments Dressed in Green” in Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) and have found that the 39th Garwhal Rifles British officers did indeed feature a silver 8-pointed star on their helmets.

Ergo alongside the pouch belt badge we can confirm that officer #54 and #27 is indeed from that regiment.  It must be a very rare badge given it was only worn by British officers and I’ve been unable to track one down, although I did find an example of the helmet on which it was fitted.

The badge visible on the helmet of #54 clearly matches the description outlined in the regulations below.  See also officers far right in group photograph.

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

So by my reckoning that leaves us with just two officers from the 1910 intake still to be identified on the 1910 photograph.

The first of these is Captain Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers. It looks like we have just the one Pioneer Officer unacounted for on both Staff College pictures.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

We've looked at this pairing several times now, the initial, assessment being that he was either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers. But there was no match for an entrant from either of those two units. There was also a lack of comparable images for the 121st Pioneers, and so far nothing else at all for Arthur Ellis.

Given the shortage of evidence but with no other plausible candidate, for now Officers 14 and 47 should go down as "Maybe Arthur Ellis" until it can be proved or disproved otherwise.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

So by my reckoning that leaves us with just two officers from the 1910 intake still to be identified on the 1910 photograph.

The first of these is Captain Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers. It looks like we have just the one Pioneer Officer unacounted for on both Staff College pictures.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

We've looked at this pairing several times now, the initial, assessment being that he was either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers. But there was no match for an entrant from either of those two units. There was also a lack of comparable images for the 121st Pioneers, and so far nothing else at all for Arthur Ellis.

Given the shortage of evidence but with no other plausible candidate, for now Officers 14 and 47 should go down as "Maybe Arthur Ellis" until it can be proved or disproved otherwise.

Cheers,
Peter

I didn’t have the regulations to examine back then Peter and so had no information regarding facings.  I can now confirm that the officer’s uniform is that of the 121st Pioneers, which was scarlet clad with white facings and gilt crossed axes on collar.

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

So by my reckoning that leaves us with just two officers from the 1910 intake still to be identified on the 1910 photograph.

The first of these is Captain Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers. It looks like we have just the one Pioneer Officer unacounted for on both Staff College pictures.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

We've looked at this pairing several times now, the initial, assessment being that he was either 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers. But there was no match for an entrant from either of those two units. There was also a lack of comparable images for the 121st Pioneers, and so far nothing else at all for Arthur Ellis.

Given the shortage of evidence but with no other plausible candidate, for now Officers 14 and 47 should go down as "Maybe Arthur Ellis" until it can be proved or disproved otherwise.

Cheers,
Peter

Here is 'Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis' career summary courtesy of Fold 3. He died in Bournmouth 31 Oct 1955. Wife was Mabel Constance Ellis.

[PRC]

Last of the 1910 entrants yet to be identified on the 1910 photograph is Charles Robertson, 19th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse).  He is on the 1911 picture as Officer [20], identification having come from the uniform he was wearing.

Of the three remaining unnamed officers in the 1910 picture only one appears to be a Cavalry Officer, which is number 25. Although I’ll post a side by side comparison, my personal opinion is that they are not the same man. Even though it’s difficult to make a direct facial comparison, note the discrepancy between the three medals in 1910 and only one in 1911 and the pouch belt design.

Co-incidently while searching for uniform matches for 1910 Officer 25 I came across an illustration in the 1993 edition of Lyle price guide militaria, arms & armour titled “A pre-1922 Officer’s full lace shoulder belt and pouch of the 19^th Lancers (Fane’s Horse), silver lace with French grey central stripe.” Image re-orientated and included here courtesy https://archive.org/details/lylepriceguidemi0000curt/page/286/mode/2up?q=Skinners+Horse&view=theater

 

 

Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon, 3rd Skinners Horse, a 1909 entrant has also been suggested as a match for Officer 25 based on position of his signature on the mount. As we now have so few unidentified individuals on the 1910 photograph, (three), and the presumption is that he would not have signed it if he wasn’t present, then looks like he is a stronger candidate.

Unfortunately lots of useful uniform pictures online for 1^st Skinners, but very few helpful ones for 3^rd Skinners.

The piece on the 3^rd Skinners Horse from the 1910 Saugor Cavalry School records that the uniform was blue with yellow facings. But in the actual picture Lieutenant A.M. Daniels, 3rd Skinner’s Horse, is shown wearing the British officers full dress “as for regiment of horse”.

The British Empire website doesn’t appear to have a webpage for this Regiment.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

So for me the conclusions are:-

·       That Charles Robertson was present at the college in 1910-11, but absent from the picture.

·       That there is insufficent evidence to judge whether officer 25 is serving in 3^rd Skinners Horse.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

Last of the 1910 entrants yet to be identified on the 1910 photograph is Charles Robertson, 19th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse).  He is on the 1911 picture as Officer [20], identification having come from the uniform he was wearing.

 

Of the three remaining unnamed officers in the 1910 picture only one appears to be a Cavalry Officer, which is number 25. Although I’ll post a side by side comparison, my personal opinion is that they are not the same man. Even though it’s difficult to make a direct facial comparison, note the discrepancy between the three medals in 1910 and only one in 1911 and the pouch belt design.

 

Co-incidently while searching for uniform matches for 1910 Officer 25 I came across an illustration in the 1993 edition of Lyle price guide militaria, arms & armour titled “A pre-1922 Officer’s full lace shoulder belt and pouch of the 19^th Lancers (Fane’s Horse), silver lace with French grey central stripe.” Image re-orientated and included here courtesy https://archive.org/details/lylepriceguidemi0000curt/page/286/mode/2up?q=Skinners+Horse&view=theater

 

 

 

Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon, 3rd Skinners Horse, a 1909 entrant has also been suggested as a match for Officer 25 based on position of his signature on the mount. As we now have so few unidentified individuals on the 1910 photograph, (three), and the presumption is that he would not have signed it if he wasn’t present, then looks like he is a stronger candidate.

 

Unfortunately lots of useful uniform pictures online for 1^st Skinners, but very few helpful ones for 3^rd Skinners.

 

The piece on the 3^rd Skinners Horse from the 1910 Saugor Cavalry School records that the uniform was blue with yellow facings. But in the actual picture Lieutenant A.M. Daniels, 3rd Skinner’s Horse, is shown wearing the British officers full dress “as for regiment of horse”.

 

The British Empire website doesn’t appear to have a webpage for this Regiment.

 

 

 

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

So for me the conclusions are:-

 

·       That Charles Robertson was present at the college in 1910-11, but absent from the picture.

 

·       That there is insufficent evidence to judge whether officer 25 is serving in 3^rd Skinners Horse.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

I agree that they are definitely not the same man Peter, and say so not just based on faces and medals, but because the Type B uniform of #25 does not match with the Type A uniform of #20 (i.e. different regiments).

Equally the Type B uniform of #20 is not correct for the 3rd Skinners Horse.  The uniform worn by the 3rd Skinners Horse officer (unnumbered) with whom you compared is Type A, and so it would be comparing apples and pears.  Below as a reminder are the Type A and B uniforms of both, 1st and 3rd Skinners.  Note the lace decoration of the Kurta.

The uniform of #20 is definitely Bengal Cavalry, but without any other corroborating factors and information it’s going to be difficult to say which regiment (other than what’s already been said earlier in the thread).

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I didn’t have the regulations to examine back then Peter and so had no information regarding facings.  I can now confirm that the officer’s uniform is that of the 121st Pioneers, which was scarlet clad with white facings and gilt crossed axes on collar.

Thanks for that - I didn't think we ever be likely to get him, so your newly arrived regulations are a godsend

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The uniform worn by the 3rd Skinners Horse officer (unnumbered) with whom you compared is Type A and so would be comparing apples and pears.  Below as a reminder are the Type A and B uniforms of both, 1st and 3rd Skinners.

The uniform of #20 is definitely Bengal Cavalry, but without any other corroborating factors and features it’s going to be difficult to say which.

This has been driving me mad most of today! No-one in the Saugor Cavalry School looks like they are wearing anything comparable, even though most of the Bengal Cavalry units are represented. However could be because some of the British Officers serving with Native Cavalry units are wearing Type A uniforms.

And where pictures do exist of uniforms for officers of the 3rd Skinners Horse, like the one you have pictured, they are of a mess jacket \ Lieutenant Colonels jacket and the like so I presume not really a helpful comparison when it comes to the fine detail for a Captain. I presume there is too little detail on the belt buckle of officer 25 to be able to rule any Bengal Cavalry units in or out - well apart from the 19th Lancers which are already out.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Thanks for that - I didn't think we ever be likely to get him, so your newly arrived regulations are a godsend

This has been driving me mad most of today! No-one in the Saugor Cavalry School looks like they are wearing anything comparable, even though most of the Bengal Cavalry units are represented. However could be because some of the British Officers serving with Native Cavalry units are wearing Type A uniforms.

And where pictures do exist of uniforms for officers of the 3rd Skinners Horse, like the one you have pictured, they are of a mess jacket \ Lieutenant Colonels jacket and the like so I presume not really a helpful comparison when it comes to the fine detail for a Captain. I presume there is too little detail on the belt buckle of officer 25 to be able to rule any Bengal Cavalry units in or out - well apart from the 19th Lancers which are already out.

Cheers,
Peter

What we’re having to identify with #20 is a particular regiment’s Type B dress and, although the cuffs and collars were decorated according to rank, the front decoration was fairly standard for each regiment’s officers, so that, along with pagri, lungi, pouch belt and waistbelt clasp, gives us our ID.

Fortunately the Almark booklet by A H Bowling (a fantastic historian and artist of uniform) covers all the regiments Type Bs at at 1880 and 1914, so it should be possible to at the very least narrow things down.  I’m not sure if we did that earlier for #20, but I will look again.

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Thanks for that - I didn't think we ever be likely to get him, so your newly arrived regulations are a godsend

This has been driving me mad most of today! No-one in the Saugor Cavalry School looks like they are wearing anything comparable, even though most of the Bengal Cavalry units are represented. However could be because some of the British Officers serving with Native Cavalry units are wearing Type A uniforms.

And where pictures do exist of uniforms for officers of the 3rd Skinners Horse, like the one you have pictured, they are of a mess jacket \ Lieutenant Colonels jacket and the like so I presume not really a helpful comparison when it comes to the fine detail for a Captain. I presume there is too little detail on the belt buckle of officer 25 to be able to rule any Bengal Cavalry units in or out - well apart from the 19th Lancers which are already out.

Cheers,
Peter

Okay Peter, having scoured through A H Bowling’s excellent little book, by far the closest matches to the uniform, especially the kurta and the pouch belt, were the 6th King  Edward’s Own Cavalry and the 12th Cavalry.  However, the 6th Cavalry did not have the simple piping framed collar and the officers also wore a collar badge of the Prince of Wales feathers.  The 12th had regimental shoulder chains, the simple collar described and, as seen in the image of #25, with the piping continuing in a line on both sides of the buttons down to the waist.  The pouch belt was plain gold lace with no chains and prickers.  In conclusion my best offer is that the officer numbered as 25 in the 1911 photo is from the 12th Cavalry.

Designations of 12th Regiment of Bengal Cavalry 
The unit of 12th Regiment of Bengal Cavalry of the British Indian Army held a number of designations through out its service. These are shown below: 
* 2nd Sikh Irregular Cavalry - 1857 
* 12th Regiment of Bengal Cavalry - 1861 
* 12th Bengal Cavalry - 1901 
* 12th Cavalry - 1903 
* 5th King Edward's Own Probyn's Horse (with 11th Regiment of Bengal Cavalry) - 1921 

 

 

 

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

58 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In conclusion my best offer is that the officer numbered as 25 in the 1911 photo is from the 12th Cavalry.

For comparison here is a picture of the 12th Cavalry British Officer who was attending the Saugor Cavalry School in 1910, so pretty much a contemporary. Apologies, he's on the fold in the source so have had to stitch the two sides together.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Close but it's the headgear pattern I'm having the most trouble matching from any source. Even if those black shades on the photograph are actually yellow, they still seem too chunky for Fig39, and presumably you should most likely see the same effect on the Saugor Cavalry School photograph.

Also Officer 25 in the 1910 College Photograph has a definate "horn" (sorry, don't know correct term).
Fig 39 in the comparison you have posted doesn't.
The 12th Cavalry Officer at the Saugor Cavalry School may have - I can't work out if it's something on his head or an epaulette on the man behind but either way looks very tatty compared to everything else on display.

To compound matters, so far I don't believe we have had a 12th Cavalry name in either the 1909 or 1910 intakes at the Indian Staff College 

@mrfrank or @Bob Davies - do you have any information about the medal entitlement of Captain Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon at the time of the 1910 Staff College photograph. That might give us a steer as to whether there is any mileage in trying to link him to Officer 25 in that picture.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

For comparison here is a picture of the 12th Cavalry British Officer who was attending the Saugor Cavalry School in 1910, so pretty much a contemporary. Apologies, he's on the fold in the source so have had to stitch the two sides together.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Close but it's the headgear pattern I'm having the most trouble matching from any source. Even if those black shades on the photograph are actually yellow, they still seem too chunky for Fig39, and presumably you should most likely see the same effect on the Saugor Cavalry School photograph.

Also Officer 25 in the 1910 College Photograph has a definate "horn" (sorry, don't know correct term).
Fig 39 in the comparison you have posted doesn't.
The 12th Cavalry Officer at the Saugor Cavalry School may have - I can't work out if it's something on his head or an epaulette on the man behind but either way looks very tatty compared to everything else on display.

To compound matters, so far I don't believe we have had a 12th Cavalry name in either the 1909 or 1910 intakes at the Indian Staff College 

@mrfrank or @Bob Davies - do you have any information about the medal entitlement of Captain Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon at the time of the 1910 Staff College photograph. That might give us a steer as to whether there is any mileage in trying to link him to Officer 25 in that picture.

Cheers,
Peter

I won’t mince matters Peter.  The fact is once the features were narrowed down it can’t be anyone else.  The 12th were like so many a mixed [martial] class regiment, but primarily Sikh, so hence fig 39.  The pointy top is a Kullah.  It wasn’t worn by the Sikh squadrons, but it was worn by the others and the officers commanding wore what their men wore in Type B dress to identify with them (common sense).  The striping on the pagri might well have varied a little according to its source (they were hand woven) and the type of photography.  I can’t help you with regards to an officers name but I am not looking for any other unit and am content that it’s the 12th.

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve just looked at this again and from a variety of sources established that the 12th was a Sikh Regiment and not mixed class as I’d misinterpreted from elsewhere.  This means the Kullah seen on the officer doesn’t chime with the 12th.

My first thought is to look at the 6th again (which I will do tomorrow), but I’m running out of ideas now.

Notice also the difference in the shoulder chains.  #25 is wearing the conventional type, whereas your 12th officer from Saugor is wearing the 12th’s special regimental pattern that’s a different shape.

I also now think that you’re right about the pagri.  The difference from the 12th is too much pronounced as you say.

Major R. Money Barnes wrote in his book Military Uniforms of Britain & The Empire, published by Seeley Service & Company (1960):

“The winding of military puggarees had become a skilled accomplishment and, throughout the Indian Army, there must have been scores of different styles, each instantly recognizable by those who knew them. The variety of patterns in one regiment was due to the class-company system, which dated from after the mutiny of the Bengal Army in 1857.”

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

It’s getting a bit confusing now.  This image shows ALFRED CLIVE LE MESURIER of the 12th Cavalry.  He appears to wear a Kullah, the pagri is less different looking with a whitish band on top, and his shoulder chains are of conventional type. 

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

44 minutes ago, PRC said:

do you have any information about the medal entitlement of Captain Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon at the time of the 1910 Staff College photograph. That might give us a steer as to whether there is any mileage in trying to link him to Officer 25 in that picture.

UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949 for E C W Conway-Gordon

Miscellaneous Regions - Jubilee and Coronation Medals

Jubilee, Coronation and India 1897-1902

ALL

All Regiments, Units and Staff - Queen Victoria´s Jubilee, King Edward´s Coronation, Delhi Durbar

[Bob Davies]

and 1910 Harts list for Conway Gordon;

[Bob Davies]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

As promised I’ve gone through all the Infantry “Regiments Dressed in Green” in Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) and have found that the 39th Garwhal Rifles British officers did indeed feature a silver 8-pointed star on their helmets.

Thank you FROGSMILE; 5th from right standing on the ground could well be our man 'Alexander Bertram Lindsay' on your picture of the 'Officers 39th Garhwal Rifles'? Also I believe this 'side by side' are the same man. Tying to catch up here, @mrfrank Thank you so much for posting your original picture!

Edited 8 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

For comparison here is a picture of the 12th Cavalry British Officer who was attending the Saugor Cavalry School in 1910, so pretty much a contemporary. Apologies, he's on the fold in the source so have had to stitch the two sides together.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Close but it's the headgear pattern I'm having the most trouble matching from any source. Even if those black shades on the photograph are actually yellow, they still seem too chunky for Fig39, and presumably you should most likely see the same effect on the Saugor Cavalry School photograph.

Also Officer 25 in the 1910 College Photograph has a definate "horn" (sorry, don't know correct term).
Fig 39 in the comparison you have posted doesn't.
The 12th Cavalry Officer at the Saugor Cavalry School may have - I can't work out if it's something on his head or an epaulette on the man behind but either way looks very tatty compared to everything else on display.

To compound matters, so far I don't believe we have had a 12th Cavalry name in either the 1909 or 1910 intakes at the Indian Staff College 

@mrfrank or @Bob Davies - do you have any information about the medal entitlement of Captain Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon at the time of the 1910 Staff College photograph. That might give us a steer as to whether there is any mileage in trying to link him to Officer 25 in that picture.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter I think I’ve solved this now and I’ve been kicking myself.  Just as Imperial British cavalry regiments had full dress and undress uniforms so did the British Indian cavalry.  You were right when you mentioned an officer of the 3rd Skinners Horse.  I dismissed him because his (#25) kurta didn’t match the full dress one with its frontal decoration.  The 1st and 3rd Skinners Horse undress version of the kurta though were both similar to the design outlined for the 12th Cavalry, in terms of the vertical line of piping down each side of the buttons and plain, but framed collar.  Also the pouch belt was plain lace and with the orthochromatic film effect [yellow showing dark] the colours of the pagri seem to chime too.  Even the waistbelt clasp appears to match.  Here below is the undress uniform of 3rd Skinners Horse, and I think it matches very well with Officer #25. It suggests then, does it not, that #25 is E C W Conway-Gordon?

NB.  I can’t argue away the kullah and can only assume it was convenient for wear by the officers, as the 12th officer is also wearing one.  It possibly enabled a semi permanent pagri that could be donned like a helmet, which would be convenient, but that is merely my speculation.  However, note the lowermost painting showing a red kullah.  Skinners we’re certainly a mixed class Regiment.  It was the Mussulmen (Islamists) who wore the kullah, but not Sikhs.  Ergo my earlier comment about the British officers following the practice of the men in their particular sub-unit, stands.

 

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

57 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s getting a bit confusing now.  This image shows ALFRED CLIVE LE MESURIER of the 12th Cavalry.  He appears to wear a Kullah, the pagri is less different looking with a whitish band on top, and his shoulder chains are of conventional type. 

If you're confused think what it's like for us poor lay people I do not claim any expertise in this area and I and I'm sure the other contributors appreciate all the help we can get. Given the sheer volume we've got through I think it has been a remarkable forum effort.

We're probably now getting to the tough nuts on the 1910 photograph and it just may be that there is no answer that can be given with any degree of confidence. If the prima facie evidence says one unit then even if that is at odds with other, more general evidence, it doesn't need to spiral into an extended debate.

I'm a pattern person, (in data and numbers as well as imagery), which is why I guess I am drawn to the pagri \ khulla combination. But that's where I've been tearing my hair out earlier today through the sheer lack of consistancy at times and the absence of a coloured guide. For instance I don't know if the picture of Alfred Clive Le Measurier has been reversed, but the colour stripes are over his left side of the head - that for the man at the Saugor Cavalry School are over his right. Previously I'd been assuming there was some significance to this in identifying units, but if a laissez-faire attitude applied then we may all be doomed!

Edit

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Peter I think I’ve solved this now and I’ve been kicking myself.

With the sheer volume of possible uniforms, many of which were all in a state of flux as the Prince of Wales became the new King George and others gained royal patronage during the period we are looking at, I think you done incredibly well to keep on top of the queries this thread has chucked up. I have to do the summaries, otherwise I'd have lost the plot week ago!

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

5th from right standing on the ground could well be our man 'Alexander Bertram Lindsay' on your picture of the 'Officers 39th Garhwal Rifles'? Also I believe this 'side by side' are the same man. Tying to catch up here

The 39th Garwhal Rifles man is John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, a 1910 entrant who appears on both Staff College photographs.

I agree there is some facial similarity although the resolution on the original source at http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2019/a-helmet-of-the-garhwal-rifles-39th-garhwal-regiment-bengal-army/garwhal-1911is a bit too low to speak with too much confidence

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Its not a show-stopper but if John Carruthers went to the Staff College in the early months of 1910 to take a two year course, graduating in the early months of 1912, why would he have been with his unit at Delhi in 1911? (That's what is written on the photograph). Was he perhaps temporarily back with them for the 1911 Durbar - was he one of the officers selected to receive the medal for example? 

Esme Conway-Gordon was a 1909 entrant and a 1911 graduate so his presence at the Durbar is more understandable. And thank you for posting the medal details for Esme. I can see the centre medal for him has three clasps while the one on the left as we look at it might well have two. So if the uniform issue hadn't been resolved he was still going to be a very strong "maybe" identification.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

The 39th Garwhal Rifles man is John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, a 1910 entrant who appears on both Staff College photographs.

I agree there is some facial similarity although the resolution on the original source at http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2019/a-helmet-of-the-garhwal-rifles-39th-garhwal-regiment-bengal-army/garwhal-1911is a bit too low to speak with too much confidence

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Its not a show-stopper but if John Carruthers went to the Staff College in the early months of 1910 to take a two year course, graduating in the early months of 1912, why would he have been with his unit at Delhi in 1911? (That's what is written on the photograph). Was he perhaps temporarily back with them for the 1911 Durbar - was he one of the officers selected to receive the medal for example? 

Esme Conway-Gordon was a 1909 entrant and a 1911 graduate so his presence at the Durbar is more understandable. And thank you for posting the medal details for Esme. I can see the centre medal for him has three clasps while the one on the left as we look at it might well have two. So if the uniform issue hadn't been resolved he was still going to be a very strong "maybe" identification.

Cheers,
Peter

There is normally leave of absence as routine during a 2-year long staff course Peter and there was usually a collegiate style curriculum not unlike a university.  The Durbar was also seen as a once-in-a-lifetime event** and it would have been entirely natural for an officer to be with his regiment on such an occasion.  You also raise a good point about the possibility of a medal presentation. 

**The investment of an Emperor only occurring once in a reign of course.

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Next up is another 1909 entrant, William Archibald Smail Walker, 46^th Punjabis and I feel I owe @mrfrank an apology. He did originally identify officer 51 as a possible match some days ago based on the position of the signature on the mount and I pooh-poohed it. Yes some of the signatures are orphaned from the related faces, but most are approximately placed so as to narrow down considerably the likely individual.

However now we have just two faces left to identify, and with one of the two being 51, I think it’s become clear that it has to be William Walker.

I posted previously that he has a webpage on the Dulwich College site which includes a picture and an obituary.

The picture is undated but looks like a younger man with a different hairline, although unit has been confirmed by @FROGSMILE as 46^th Punjabis.

By the time of the 1910-11 Staff College picture he was entitled to the IGSM with three clasps, which was the blocker for me in the past. The low resolution image originally available meant it wasn’t possible to identify any medals. However with the latest images it looks like the medal with clasps can just be seen peeping out from under his pouch belt.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Next up is another 1909 entrant, William Archibald Smail Walker, 46^th Punjabis and I feel I owe @mrfrank an apology. He did originally identify officer 51 as a possible match some days ago based on the position of the signature on the mount and I pooh-poohed it. Yes some of the signatures are orphaned from the related faces, but most are approximately placed so as to narrow down considerably the likely individual.

 

However now we have just two faces left to identify, and with one of the two being 51, I think it’s become clear that it has to be William Walker.

 

I posted previously that he has a webpage on the Dulwich College site which includes a picture and an obituary.

 

The picture is undated but looks like a younger man with a different hairline, although unit has been confirmed by @FROGSMILE as 46^th Punjabis.

 

By the time of the 1910-11 Staff College picture he was entitled to the IGSM with three clasps, which was the blocker for me in the past. The low resolution image originally available meant it wasn’t possible to identify any medals. However with the latest images it looks like the medal with clasps can just be seen peeping out from under his pouch belt.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

 

Well done Peter, certainly the same man I think (his left ear a particularly clear marker) and I agree that his medal can definitely be seen just protruding a little from under his pouch belt.

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

And then there was one – at least as far as the 1910-11 Indian Staff College photograph is concerned.

The only officer for which we don’t have a candidate is the Native Infantry \ Gurkha Officer number 18.

Assuming that Charles Robertson missed the picture, the only student left is Captain Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias, 1st K.G.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Major A.H.W. Elias-Wynn, 2/1st Gurkhas serving with the RAF as Lieutenant-Colonel.Subsequently Group Captain RAF.)

At first I struggled to find images of British Officers of the 1st King Georges Own Gurkha Rifles that would confirm the uniform worn by Officer 18 was appropriate.

Online I found pictures that had obviously come from De Ruvignys for Captain Thomas Campbell Burke
https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/de-ruvignys-roll-of-honour-vol-1-b/h7BF28F6D#h7bf28f6d
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5458336

And Major Arthur Young, 1st Gurkha Rifles, killed in action 14th December 1914.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205391252

But while both certainly died serving with the 1st Battalion, the De Ruvignys entry for both gave no hint as to when they transferred into the 1st Gurkha Rifles. The piece on Major Young starts off with his service with the Gordon Highlanders, but doesn’t give any timeline as to the subsequent move. In his narrative Captain Burke dips in and out of the 125th Napier’s Rifles and with the Rajputana Infantry broken up by a spell as an inspecting officer and as Adjutant to the Bangalore Volunteer Rifles.

In terms of the uniforms they are wearing Young is supportive of Elias being a 1st KGO uniform while Burke certainly isn’t.

To expand the comparison I then did a search of the CWGC database for Captains and Majors of the 1st Battalion, working on the basis that those who died before the end of 1916 were more likely to have served pre-war with the Battalion.

Captain Beauchamp Oswald Duff 1st Gurkhas, sourced FindaGrave, is another one unfortunately where the source gives no guide as to how long he served with the 1st Battalion, and CWGC adds that when he died he was attached to the 2nd Battalion.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56605109/beauchamp-oswald-duff
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1448814/beauchamp-oswald-duff/

However there was also:

Captain Gilbert Stuart Kennedy, 1st Battalion Adjutant. With them since July 1907.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205302326

Captain Henry Gilbert Ironside, 1st Battalion. Killed in Action 20th December 1914 at Givenchy. Had been with the 1st Battalion since January 1904. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205385986

My understanding is that the Regiment had gone through several name changes in the decade prior to the photograph being taken of Officer 18 at Quetta, including being a Prince of Wales' Regiment featuring his feathers, to King George's Regiment featuring the Crown.

So I think if we take Young, Duff, Kennedy and Ironside into consideration along with the badge changes, the uniform being worn by Officer 18 is that of the 1st King George’s Own Gurkha Rifles, making Officer 18 Captain Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, PRC said:

And then there was one – at least as far as the 1910-11 Indian Staff College photograph is concerned.

The only officer for which we don’t have a candidate is the Native Infantry \ Gurkha Officer number 18.

Assuming that Charles Robertson missed the picture, the only student left is Captain Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias, 1st K.G.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Major A.H.W. Elias-Wynn, 2/1st Gurkhas serving with the RAF as Lieutenant-Colonel.Subsequently Group Captain RAF.)

At first I struggled to find images of British Officers of the 1st King Georges Own Gurkha Rifles that would confirm the uniform worn by Officer 18 was appropriate.

Online I found pictures that had obviously come from De Ruvignys for Captain Thomas Campbell Burke
https://www.ukphotoarchive.org.uk/de-ruvignys-roll-of-honour-vol-1-b/h7BF28F6D#h7bf28f6d
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5458336

And Major Arthur Young, 1st Gurkha Rifles, killed in action 14th December 1914.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205391252

But while both certainly died serving with the 1st Battalion, the De Ruvignys entry for both gave no hint as to when they transferred into the 1st Gurkha Rifles. The piece on Major Young starts off with his service with the Gordon Highlanders, but doesn’t give any timeline as to the subsequent move. In his narrative Captain Burke dips in and out of the 125th Napier’s Rifles and with the Rajputana Infantry broken up by a spell as an inspecting officer and as Adjutant to the Bangalore Volunteer Rifles.

In terms of the uniforms they are wearing Young is supportive of Elias being a 1st KGO uniform while Burke certainly isn’t.

To expand the comparison I then did a search of the CWGC database for Captains and Majors of the 1st Battalion, working on the basis that those who died before the end of 1916 were more likely to have served pre-war with the Battalion.

Captain Beauchamp Oswald Duff 1st Gurkhas, sourced FindaGrave, is another one unfortunately where the source gives no guide as to how long he served with the 1st Battalion, and CWGC adds that when he died he was attached to the 2nd Battalion.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56605109/beauchamp-oswald-duff
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1448814/beauchamp-oswald-duff/

However there was also:

Captain Gilbert Stuart Kennedy, 1st Battalion Adjutant. With them since July 1907.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205302326

Captain Henry Gilbert Ironside, 1st Battalion. Killed in Action 20th December 1914 at Givenchy. Had been with the 1st Battalion since January 1904. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205385986

My understanding is that the Regiment had gone through several name changes in the decade prior to the photograph being taken of Officer 18 at Quetta, including being a Prince of Wales' Regiment featuring his feathers, to King George's Regiment featuring the Crown.

So I think if we take Young, Duff, Kennedy and Ironside into consideration along with the badge changes, the uniform being worn by Officer 18 is that of the 1st King George’s Own Gurkha Rifles, making Officer 18 Captain Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

That is correct Peter, 1st (KGO) Gurkhas changed their pouch badges quite dramatically to reflect changes in title, and I agree with your conclusion that officer #18 is of that regiment, plus in the photo I think that he’s still wearing the badge pattern topped with PoW feathers (officers were officially permitted up to 5-years to adopt new patterns, but often came under great pressure regimentally).

 I’d also like to pay tribute to you personally for achieving this extraordinary undertaking.  Although a joint effort with several forum members, you have in my view done by far the hardest part and your ability to analyse genealogical and other facts, and manipulate software so that photos appear side-by-side, plus label individuals with numbers, so that we can collectively hone in, is second to none and a special talent.

 I hope that mrfrank might generously consider donating an electronic copy of this photo and an accompanying biographical list, to the unique Indian Army Memorial Room** at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.  See: https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2019/09/british-indian-army-memorial-refurbished/Also perhaps the Joint Services Staff College (at Shrivenham - the Army no longer has a ring fenced discrete college) if they are interested in having one as interesting and relevant decor.

**Dr Anthony Morton.  https://www.nam.ac.uk/whats-on/indian-army-memorial-room-sandhurst-tour

NB.  Although there is a good collection of photographs at the Indian Room in Sandhurst, they often don’t have the first clue as to who the officers actually were…

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE