Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[PRC]

Latest Summary for the 1911 Staff College picture featuring Douglas Haig.
[1910 picture numbers in square brackets].

1: Thomas Anselan Pollok-Morris, Highland Light Infantry
2: Possibly Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs Indian regiment given absence of collar badge and his tunic is of pre 1903 pattern with a higher collar.Appear to be wearing 1900 China medal, which Captain Wilson-Johnston qualified for.
3: Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt. [43]
4: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. White plastron of Imperial style (the Indian was different). One of the 1910 entrants.  He commanded the 11th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War. [2]
5: Arthur Richard Careless Sanders R.E. (RE as evidenced by wavy line pouch belt).
6: James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans  (No medals at the time this picture was taken)
7: Maybe John Cavendish Freeland, 35^th Sikhs– uniform appears to be correct for unit.  Previously down as Indian infantry and probably Sikh without Royal appellation/association going by coloured facings and qoit collar badge.
8: Probably Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse (ex 5^th Bombay Cavalry).
9: Francis Duncan Irvine (Royal Engineers), 2nd Queen’s Own Sappers & Miners. Definitely RE officer, attached to Sappers & Miners but retained parent uniform. [47]
10: Possibly James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs.  
11: Probably Henry Bingham Whistler Smith-Rewse, RFA
12: Possibly John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis. 1910 intake. From an Indian regiment and pre 1903 tunic with higher collar. [53]
13: Probably Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment who had at this time QM+3, KM+2, India Medal+1 (NWF 1897-8). This Officer seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. Probably Imperial infantry regiment going by what can be seen of his tunic.
14: Probably Charles Kirkpatrick, Corps of Guides (no medal entitlement) - regiment styled as Hussars, special pouch belt design along with tunic style strongly suggests Corps of Guides.
15: Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure. [30]
16: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps. [46]
17: Possibly Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry -­ No medals. Indian infantry probably with Royal appellation/association as facings appear to be dark blue.
18: Probably Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis.
19: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear). [55]
20: Possibly Charles Robertson, 19^th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse).1910 intake but no obvious match on the earlier photograph. On medical leave from India since 1913, died during an operation in the UK in 1915. Still on active list so treated as a war casualty.
21: Richard Hope Waller, 38th Dogras
22: Probably Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. 
23: Probably Alleyn Charles Rothwell Greene, RGA (No medal entitlement).
24: Possibly Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis. Wearing IGSM with one clasp – Captain McWatters had the IGSM with clasp for NW Frontier of India, 1908 ‘operations in the Mohmand country. Engagement of Kargha’. 
25: Probably John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse). [15]
26: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919. [1]
27: John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles. 1910 entrant. [54]
28: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. 1910 entrant. [11]
29: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles. [44]
30: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment. [45]
31: Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers.
32: Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis .Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps.
33: Possibly Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers although appears to be wearing uniform of 48th Pioneers.
34: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster. [49]
35: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). One of the 1910 entrant. NW Frontier of India medal+clasp. [32]
36: Possibly Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras. One of the 1910 entrants. [19]
37: Probably Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs.
38: Probably Frank Etheridge, 7th Rajputs.
39: Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse.
40: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs. [31]
41: Possibly Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 entrants.  Subsequently 2nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18th November 1916 while attached 7th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. However uniform differences with the 27^th Light Cavalry Officer on the Saugor Cavalry School picture. [9]
42: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. One of the 1910 entrants. China 1900 Medal. [27]
43: Probably Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis. Brigade Major 34^th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7^th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others. [33]
44: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA. [26]
45: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs. [17]
46: Probably Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery. [52]
47: Probably Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121^st Pioneers. 1910 entrant. [14]
48: Probably Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry. Two medals. Identified from his Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry uniform, although clasps on QSA and KSA don’t tally to the totals shown in the relevant Army List.
49: Probably Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers
50: Probably Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles (College Staff). [41]
51: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR. [42]
52: Probably George de Symons Barrow, 4th Cavalry
53: Probably Col John Emerson Wharton Headlam DSO
54: College Commandant Walter Pipon Braithwaite.
55: Douglas Haig
56: Henry Dowrish Drake, RM Artillery, (College Staff). [38]
57: Theodore Fraser, RE (College Staff). [37]
58: Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff). [40]
59: Possibly Major Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs. This officer appears to be wearing the Egyptian Medal & India Medal+3 clasps (that fits for him) as well as one other medal. 
60: College Staff?

Outstanding

College Staff

Possible -  Captain Robert Alexander Chambers, Indian Medical Service.

Students

1910 Intake

William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the 1911 Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.Possible match on the 1910 picture [50].

1911 Intake

Major Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

On 08/02/2023 at 00:03, charlie962 said:

Following this thread with great interest but not contributed. 

Forgive me if this next has already been dealt with.

This clipping from FindmyPast newspapers 11/3/11 Army & Navy Gazette sets the numbers. 25 each year for a two year course meaning 50 present at any time. Depending on when the 1911 photo was taken it could be the 1910 entry plus either the 1909 or the 1911 entry.. Has account been taken of this? 

From @charlie962s newspaper cuttings I realised that I had not looked for 'George De Symons Barrow', believe me I have looked for pretty much all these names. From Ancestry we have a picture. Could this man be a likeness to our Officer 60. 1911? Failing this, he must be from the RAOC , with his note book thank you  @FROGSMILE,working out more uniforms the Officers and Ors may need. He has a Wikipedia page, using the same picture. link here; BIG EDIT However I now realise I just mucked up as he has already been found. Apologies to all.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

52 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

BIG EDIT However I now realise I just mucked up as he has already been found. Apologies to all.

No worries. At the end of the day the majority of these identifications are not set in stone and mistakes can be made that can be picked up by doing further checking. If nothing else we now have an additional named photograph of him to use for comparison purposes. The side by side comparison below will hopefully assist with deciding to stick with the Officer #52 identification.

I'm not sure if Officer 52 has a medal ribbon somewhere in there - it's hard to believe all those medals / medal ribbons date from the Great War onwards but that would almost certainly be the case should he turn out to be Officer #60.

No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[tankengine888]

34 minutes ago, PRC said:

I'm not sure if Officer 52 has a medal ribbon somewhere in there - it's hard to believe all those medals / medal ribbons date from the Great War onwards but that would almost certainly be the case should he turn out to be Officer #60.

No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

I could've sworn I saw a medal ribbon on 52.. but all that blasted 'gold' is obscuring. Then again, I could be going crazy..

Looking at the dress photograph [wearing medals], the inner shape of the ear is very similar to 52, though I am looking at opposite ears.

Also, to help with medal identification, he's got two service medals prior to the Great War. I'm leaning towards the India Medal [Clasp] and China Medal [Clasp] due to the order of precedence..

 

Probably not what you wanted, but I'm falling asleep in class so this should keep me awake for awhile longer.

Zidane.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by tankengine888

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

No worries. At the end of the day the majority of these identifications are not set in stone and mistakes can be made that can be picked up by doing further checking. If nothing else we now have an additional named photograph of him to use for comparison purposes. The side by side comparison below will hopefully assist with deciding to stick with the Officer #52 identification.

I'm not sure if Officer 52 has a medal ribbon somewhere in there - it's hard to believe all those medals / medal ribbons date from the Great War onwards but that would almost certainly be the case should he turn out to be Officer #60.

No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

I do not believe that the ID previously noted of officer #52 should be changed.  I’m convinced, confident even, that officer #60 is a different individual, as yet unidentified.

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, PRC said:

Latest Summary for the 1911 Staff College picture featuring Douglas Haig.
[1910 picture numbers in square brackets].

 

1: Thomas Anselan Pollok-Morris, Highland Light Infantry
2: Possibly Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs Indian regiment given absence of collar badge and his tunic is of pre 1903 pattern with a higher collar.Appear to be wearing 1900 China medal, which Captain Wilson-Johnston qualified for.
3: Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt. [43]
4: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. White plastron of Imperial style (the Indian was different). One of the 1910 entrants.  He commanded the 11th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War. [2]
5: Arthur Richard Careless Sanders R.E. (RE as evidenced by wavy line pouch belt).
6: James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans  (No medals at the time this picture was taken)
7: Maybe John Cavendish Freeland, 35^th Sikhs– uniform appears to be correct for unit.  Previously down as Indian infantry and probably Sikh without Royal appellation/association going by coloured facings and qoit collar badge.
8: Probably Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse (ex 5^th Bombay Cavalry).
9: Francis Duncan Irvine (Royal Engineers), 2nd Queen’s Own Sappers & Miners. Definitely RE officer, attached to Sappers & Miners but retained parent uniform. [47]
10: Possibly James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs.  
11: Probably Henry Bingham Whistler Smith-Rewse, RFA
12: Possibly John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis. 1910 intake. From an Indian regiment and pre 1903 tunic with higher collar. [53]
13: Probably Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment who had at this time QM+3, KM+2, India Medal+1 (NWF 1897-8). This Officer seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. Probably Imperial infantry regiment going by what can be seen of his tunic.
14: Probably Charles Kirkpatrick, Corps of Guides (no medal entitlement) - regiment styled as Hussars, special pouch belt design along with tunic style strongly suggests Corps of Guides.
15: Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure. [30]
16: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps. [46]
17: Possibly Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry -­ No medals. Indian infantry probably with Royal appellation/association as facings appear to be dark blue.
18: Probably Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis.
19: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear). [55]
20: Possibly Charles Robertson, 19^th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse).1910 intake but no obvious match on the earlier photograph. On medical leave from India since 1913, died during an operation in the UK in 1915. Still on active list so treated as a war casualty.
21: Richard Hope Waller, 38th Dogras
22: Probably Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. 
23: Probably Alleyn Charles Rothwell Greene, RGA (No medal entitlement).
24: Possibly Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis. Wearing IGSM with one clasp – Captain McWatters had the IGSM with clasp for NW Frontier of India, 1908 ‘operations in the Mohmand country. Engagement of Kargha’. 
25: Probably John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse). [15]
26: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919. [1]
27: John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles. 1910 entrant. [54]
28: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. 1910 entrant. [11]
29: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles. [44]
30: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment. [45]
31: Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers.
32: Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis .Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps.
33: Possibly Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers although appears to be wearing uniform of 48th Pioneers.
34: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster. [49]
35: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). One of the 1910 entrant. NW Frontier of India medal+clasp. [32]
36: Possibly Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras. One of the 1910 entrants. [19]
37: Probably Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs.
38: Probably Frank Etheridge, 7th Rajputs.
39: Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse.
40: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs. [31]
41: Possibly Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 entrants.  Subsequently 2nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18th November 1916 while attached 7th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. However uniform differences with the 27^th Light Cavalry Officer on the Saugor Cavalry School picture. [9]
42: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. One of the 1910 entrants. China 1900 Medal. [27]
43: Probably Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis. Brigade Major 34^th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7^th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others. [33]
44: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA. [26]
45: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs. [17]
46: Probably Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery. [52]
47: Probably Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121^st Pioneers. 1910 entrant. [14]
48: Probably Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry. Two medals. Identified from his Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry uniform, although clasps on QSA and KSA don’t tally to the totals shown in the relevant Army List.
49: Probably Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers
50: Probably Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles (College Staff). [41]
51: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR. [42]
52: Probably George de Symons Barrow, 4th Cavalry
53: Probably Col John Emerson Wharton Headlam DSO
54: College Commandant Walter Pipon Braithwaite.
55: Douglas Haig
56: Henry Dowrish Drake, RM Artillery, (College Staff). [38]
57: Theodore Fraser, RE (College Staff). [37]
58: Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff). [40]
59: Possibly Major Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs. This officer appears to be wearing the Egyptian Medal & India Medal+3 clasps (that fits for him) as well as one other medal. 
60: College Staff?

 

Outstanding

 

College Staff

Possible -  Captain Robert Alexander Chambers, Indian Medical Service.

Students

 

1910 Intake

 

William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the 1911 Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.Possible match on the 1910 picture [50].

 

1911 Intake

Major Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.

Cheers,
Peter

The Indian Medical Service uniform was quite distinctive Peter comprising a dark blue tunic piped red with black silken velvet facings** (typically Victorian funereal) worn together with a pouch belt bearing no less than three lines of bullion lace.  Their white helmet had a ball top.  In B&W photography it is given away by the absence of white piping on a garment otherwise similar at first glance to an Infantry tunic.

**which had also been worn by the [Imperial] Army Medical Service before it merged to form the all ranks Royal Army Medical Corps circa 1898-99.

 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Indian Medical Service uniform was quite distinctive Peter comprising a dark blue tunic piped red with black silken velvet facings** (typically Victorian funereal) worn together with a pouch belt bearing no less than three lines of bullion lace.  Their white helmet had a ball top.

Thanks @FROGSMILE - I think we can safely rule out the IMS man Captain Chambers.

I did try checking the Indian Army List for January 1911 to see if an ADC to Haig could be identified but drew a blank - others may have better luck as that would at least give us a candidate to consider.

After that I don't know what we can do to identify guest lecturers or members of the inspectorate that came under Haig.

Frustrating when collectively we have come so very close to putting a likely name to every face.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, PRC said:

Thanks @FROGSMILE - I think we can safely rule out the IMS man Captain Chambers.

I did try checking the Indian Army List for January 1911 to see if an ADC to Haig could be identified but drew a blank - others may have better luck as that would at least give us a candidate to consider.

After that I don't know what we can do to identify guest lecturers or members of the inspectorate that came under Haig.

Frustrating when collectively we have come so very close to putting a likely name to every face.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Haig would also have had a Military Assistant (MA) as his personal staff officer.  The MA sometimes accompanied his principal along with the ADC (who was always the bag carrier) for the more important visits and inspections.  The MA was usually a slightly more mature/senior officer than the ADC, which seems to chime with officer #60.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

What do we think about the idea/suggestion of #60 being possibly John Charteris? 

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

What do we think about the idea/suggestion of #60 being possibly John Charteris? 

I was just on that route Mike.

courtesy of http://www.greathead.org/Wonersh2-o/p1240.htm

[mrfrank]

3 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I was just on that route Mike.

courtesy of http://www.greathead.org/Wonersh2-o/p1240.htm

Found a couple of images on line myself, and like that one Bob, seemed a very good match to me. 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[Bob Davies]

7 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Found a couple of images on line myself, and like that one Bob, seemed a very good match to me.

He looks a very good match Mike. More at the portrait gallery https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp77292/john-charteris?search=sas&sText=John

Same picture just clearer. Edit;  I think you have found him Mike. I had talked myself out of him being there but he is a near match.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

What do we think about the idea/suggestion of #60 being possibly John Charteris? 

Looks good to me.  Do we know exactly what his appointment was then?  It is implied that he was working for Haig having graduated at Quetta himself in 1909.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looks good to me.  Do we know exactly what his appointment was then?

This is from Harts 1911. General Staff Officer 2nd Grade. RE.

Edit; Interesting that Major Alexander Bertram Lidsay is also on this page HQ Staff of the Army in India.  I was going through all this earlier.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

This is from Harts 1911.

Just found this:

“He entered the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich in December 1893, and on graduating received a commission into the Royal Engineers** in March 1896, and was sent to Asia, where he joined the British Imperial Indian Army.  He entered Staff College, Quetta in 1907, and was the outstanding graduate of his year in 1909. Major-General Douglas Haig, then Chief of Staff India, became his patron.”

“Charteris was a staff captain at India HQ 1909–10, then 1910-12 was GSO2 on the Operations Section of the Indian General Staff.”

**hence the spiked helmet.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Wiki has him as GSO2 on the Operations Section of the Indian General Staff 1910-12. 
 

[Bob Davies]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Just found this:

“He entered the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich in December 1893, and on graduating received a commission into the Royal Engineers** in March 1896, and was sent to Asia, where he joined the British Imperial Indian Army.  He entered Staff College, Quetta in 1907, and was the outstanding graduate of his year in 1909. Major-General Douglas Haig, then Chief of Staff India, became his patron.”

“Charteris was a staff captain at India HQ 1909–10, then 1910-12 was GSO2 on the Operations Section of the Indian General Staff.”

**hence the spiked helmet.

Mike has found him, excellent, backed up by FROGSMILE, I owe you gents a tot or two

[FROGSMILE]

Some interesting comments:

“The outbreak of war in August 1914 brought Charteris successive appointments in Haig's staff, each time in intelligence positions, although Haig also routinely consulted him on wider military strategy, regarding Charteris as something of a confidante.”

“Given Charteris' rapid promotion, and his obvious good standing with Haig, he found himself labelled with numerous unflattering tags, including Haig's "evil counsellor" and as his "Principal Boy", labels that owed something to Charteris' wide unpopularity.”

“Generally vilified today for his role in misadvising Haig with regard to the likely success of operations during the Third Battle of Ypres (Passchendaele) and at Cambrai, Charteris was certainly guilty of being overly optimistic with regard to the Allies' chances of success at both set-piece battles, as was Haig; optimism that adversely informed his advice to Haig.”

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

This is from Harts 1911. General Staff Officer 2nd Grade. RE.

Significant that he was the only captain at GSO2 level (usually for majors), which clearly marks him out as favoured and earmarked for greater things.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Gentleman you can type much quicker than I can edit pictures together

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Sources for the additional images.

Top Row left to right.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/haigs-intelligence/leadership/4DC8367CFA838CA9D66BE01E5D4BBEC5

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw122481/John-Charteris?LinkID=mp77292&role=sit&rNo=0

Bottom Row left to right.

(Image is undated in the source but the fuller picture there looks like it has possibly been signed and dated "17".) https://www.andrewwilliams.tv/books/the-suicide-club/characters/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/haigs-intelligence/leadership/4DC8367CFA838CA9D66BE01E5D4BBEC5

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw192567/John-Charteris?LinkID=mp77292&role=sit&rNo=1

1926 National Portrait Gallery via Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. https://www.oxforddnb.com/display/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-57800;jsessionid=163746718EF84FED18EAEC806B3A5A3D?mediaType=Image

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Gentleman you can type much quicker than I can edit pictures together

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Sources for the additional images.

Top Row left to right.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/haigs-intelligence/leadership/4DC8367CFA838CA9D66BE01E5D4BBEC5

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw122481/John-Charteris?LinkID=mp77292&role=sit&rNo=0

Bottom Row left to right.

(Image is undated in the source but the fuller picture there looks like it has possibly been signed and dated "17".) https://www.andrewwilliams.tv/books/the-suicide-club/characters/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/haigs-intelligence/leadership/4DC8367CFA838CA9D66BE01E5D4BBEC5

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw192567/John-Charteris?LinkID=mp77292&role=sit&rNo=1

1926 National Portrait Gallery via Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. https://www.oxforddnb.com/display/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-57800;jsessionid=163746718EF84FED18EAEC806B3A5A3D?mediaType=Image

Cheers,
Peter

 

Am I right that you’ve now reached the landmark of a name for every face in the 1911 photo?  If so it’s an extraordinary achievement for a photo over a century old.

[Bob Davies]

46 minutes ago, PRC said:

Gentleman you can type much quicker than I can edit pictures together

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Sources for the additional images.

Top Row left to right.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/haigs-intelligence/leadership/4DC8367CFA838CA9D66BE01E5D4BBEC5

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw122481/John-Charteris?LinkID=mp77292&role=sit&rNo=0

Bottom Row left to right.

(Image is undated in the source but the fuller picture there looks like it has possibly been signed and dated "17".) https://www.andrewwilliams.tv/books/the-suicide-club/characters/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/haigs-intelligence/leadership/4DC8367CFA838CA9D66BE01E5D4BBEC5

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw192567/John-Charteris?LinkID=mp77292&role=sit&rNo=1

1926 National Portrait Gallery via Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. https://www.oxforddnb.com/display/10.1093/ref:odnb/9780198614128.001.0001/odnb-9780198614128-e-57800;jsessionid=163746718EF84FED18EAEC806B3A5A3D?mediaType=Image

Cheers,
Peter

 

Thank you for doing the side by sides for us to compare all these Officers Peter. You have been a great help, in all you have done here. Hats off to all   As daft as you like, I just started reading 'Haig' written by 'Charteris', in the hope of finding our missing Officer. It is a good informative read, well so far. There are things in there I had never heard about before. So most of what I had was on the screen already. Link to book;https://archive.org/details/Haig/page/n1/mode/2up

[PRC]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Am I right that you’ve now reached the landmark of a name for every face in the 1911 photo?

Yes collectively we have now put a name to every unique face in the two Staff College photographs - albeit with varying degrees of confidence

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you for doing the side by sides for us to compare all these Officers Peter. You have been a great help, in all you have done here.

Just glad the old computer kept limping along long enough so I could carry on using the antique photo-editing software.  Really happy it has been helpful, and I suspect this thread will now become something of an internet resource for all things Indian army in the pre-war decade - even @FROGSMILE may have learnt the odd new thing!

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

Yes collectively we have now put a name to every unique face in the two Staff College photographs - albeit with varying degrees of confidence

Just glad the old computer kept limping along long enough so I could carry on using the antique photo-editing software.  Really happy it has been helpful, and I suspect this thread will now become something of an internet resource for all things Indian army in the pre-war decade - even @FROGSMILE may have learnt the odd new thing!

Cheers,
Peter

You have led the way with patience and panache Peter.  I’m very pleased that this photo now has so much more meaning as a result of the individual’s names and I have enjoyed learning from it.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RHLV]

Don't have the qualifications to help, but have been following along since the beginning of this adventure. Congratulations to all of you. Your knowledge is amazing and your results are fabulous. Thanks you for an interesting and incredible journey to India before the war.

Rich