Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[Bob Davies]

Just now, PRC said:

The only outstanding Pioneer, barring a mis-identification, that we currently have on the 1911 intake is Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers.

One more clue in finding this Officer might be from Sherborne School, Dorset. The attached is from the 'Shirburnian' the school magazine, 1909. Under the title OS News Marriages. OS  must mean 'Old Shirburnians'.  The school may be interested in seeing the picture @mrfrankMike and all the research, also they may help to identify him? The Google page for the PDF download of the magazine;

Edited 14 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

On 10/03/2023 at 22:23, PRC said:

The angle I’ve been working is that “The story of the 97th Deccan Infantry” by Major W.C. Kirkwood can be accessed on Archive.org and is a source for the photograph for Captain Vire Gordon Menzies.

Starting on page 96 there is a photo gallery of (Britsh) Officers who lost their lives serving with the regiment in the Great War. https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.06500/page/n96/mode/1up?q=Menzies&view=theater

Four of them appear to be pictures taken in the pre-war period, and as reproduced on archive org, three of them can be used to give us some idea of the regiments' uniform. They are Lieutenant G. L. J. Cavendish, Captain H.B. Leapingwell and Lieutenant E. Woodward.

In fact a bit more delving in the books shows there is also a picture titled “Group of the British and Indian Officers taken at Jubbulpore 1911-1912” which appears before page 49. https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.06500/page/n53/mode/1up?q=Menzies&view=theater

The bad news is that the only unidentified officer wearing anything like this uniform is Officer 60, (and even then it's not centrally buttoned) and I’d be very, very, very surprised if he turns out to be Vire Gordon Menzies.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

So unless that 1911-12 photograph was taken to show off a brand new style of uniform and Vire, away at staff college, was still wearing the old one, I’m stumped

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter, I have been looking into what you have written in this post after reading a reply by @FROGSMILE on a post from 2022. 4th post  in the thread.  From what I can gather there was a change in uniforms around this time, give or take a few years. I am trying to get my head around it at the moment. Anyhow I bring it to your attention incase it reveals something? Best Wishes, Bob. Edit here; Out of interest here is 'G L J Cavendish' courtesy of Lives of the first word war. andhttps://astreetnearyou.org/person/2947375/Captain-Godfrey-Lionel-John-Cavendish

 

Edited 14 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

We may need your expertise for this one @PRC in the way of a side by side or other knowledge. Herbert Claude McWatters was an 'Old Cliftonian' if my research is correct. Listed in a book 'Clifton College Annals and Register'. link here;https://archive.org/details/cliftoncollegean00clifiala/page/340/mode/2up?q=+McWatters  Also listed is a G A (George Arthur) McWatters with the same father, here is a picture of him, if Ancestry be correct? So Herberts brother. 81st Pioneers. Uniform Scarlet White Facings...

Edited 15 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Hi Peter, I have been looking into what you have written in this post after reading a reply by @FROGSMILE on a post from 2022. 4th post  in the thread.  From what I can gather there was a change in uniforms around this time, give or take a few years. I am trying to get my head around it at the moment. Anyhow I bring it to your attention incase it reveals something? Best Wishes, Bob. Edit here; Out of interest here is 'G L J Cavendish' courtesy of Lives of the first word war. andhttps://astreetnearyou.org/person/2947375/Captain-Godfrey-Lionel-John-Cavendish

 

I’m not sure what it is that you’re unclear of Bob but if you let me know I’ll try to explain.  Blue Patrol uniform was an ‘undress’ category and doesn’t feature in this thread, whereas the tunics seen in the Quetta photos and that we’ve been examining are ‘full dress’.

Edited 14 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Excellent deductions Peter that at least give us some clues to work with.

Although scarlet with black facings is common to both pioneer regiments concerned the 12th is not listed as favouring any collar badges, although we know that sometimes field cap badges (traditionally small) were sometimes used by regiments unofficially.  However, the 12th (by far the more senior) had an unusually complex badge that did not lend itself to collars.  It’s shown below as a line drawing.

Conversely the 48th Pioneers are listed as wearing crossed silver axes as a collar badge on both, tunic collar and mess dress lapels.  The principal headdress badge, though, was a silver six pointed star with crossed axes superimposed (‘charged’ in badge language).  Two of their badges are shown below, one drawn and one seemingly a field cap badge.  On the button two axes crossed with 48 and crown above and as the officer in the Quetta photo clearly has something surmounting the crossed axes on this collar, as per the apparent field cap badge, then I think he is almost certainly from the 48th and not the 12th.

Despite there being no-one from the 48^th Pioneers in the 1909, 1910 or 1911 intake shown in Indian Army Lists and the various publication documenting admission and graduation, there still remains the possibility that there was indeed a student there from that regiment.

At the moment Officer 33 would appear to be a 1911 intake, 1913 graduate, so it would seem likely he would turn up from the 1914 Annual Army list onwards shown as “p.s.c.”.

So I’ve tried going through the Regiments Officer establistment in Harts from 1909 onwards for the 48^th Pioneers. However the relevant page in both the 1914 edition held by the National Library of Scotland and the Oxford University copy on Archive org appears to be missing so I couldn’t include the details for that year.

48^th Pioneers

 

Thomas Webster (1909) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1910) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (1911)  -

Arthur John Netherton Harward (1909) Major, (1910) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1911) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1912) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1913) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1915) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant.

Frederick Annesley Andrew (1909) Major, (1910) Major, (1911) Major, with 12^th Pioneers, (1912) Major & 2^nd in Command 107^th Pioneers from 04/05/11, (1913) Major & 2^nd in Command 107^th Pioneers, (1915) Major & 2^nd in Command 121^st Pioneers.

Henry James Riddell (1909) Captain, (1910) Major, (1911) Major, with Imperial Service Corps, (1912) Major, with Imperial Service Corps, (1913) Major, with Imperial Service Corps, (1915) 2^nd in Command, Major.

Charles William Neumann (1909) Captain, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain.

Maurice Eustace Stanley Johnson (1909) Captain, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, Officiating Staff Captain, Lucknow, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain, Staff College, Quetta from February 1914.

Aubrey Vickers (1909), Captain, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain.

George Hewett (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain.

Gerald Charles Drinan (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain & S.S.O. Bareilly, (1912) Captain & S.S.O. Bareilly, (1913) Captain & S.S.O. Bareilly, (1915) Captain.

Clement James Boyce (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant Supply and Transport Corps, (1911) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1912) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1913) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1914) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1915) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class.

Reginald David de la Cour Corbett (1909) Lieutenant & Adjutant, (1910) Lieutenant & Adjutant, (1911) Captain & Adjutant, (1912) Captain & Adjutant, (1913) Captain & Tutor to Raja of Awa, (1915) Captain & Tutor to Raja of Awa.

Colin Campbell McLennan (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) – (Not in the active service index, but he wasn’t for the previous year either).

David Benjamin Gray (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant, (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant & Quartermaster, (1915) Captain.

Wilton Stransham Oldham (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant, (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Captain.

George Bevan Davies (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant, (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant & Adjutant.

Ernest Wyndham Burdett (1910) Lieutenant (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant

Francis Downie Leslie (1910) Lieutenant (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant & Quartermaster.

Charles Wyndham Somerset (1911) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (from 12^th Pioneers) (1912) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (1913) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (1915) -

Ilay Ferrier (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant.

Cyril Arthur Raynor (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant.

H.H. Hislop (1915) Lieutenant.

***********************

So no obvious candidate for an officer of the 48^th who went to the Quetta Staff College until Captain Johnson in 1914. And the only Officer who went from the 48^th to the 12^th on attachment during this period, if only briefly, did not go on to the Indian Staff College – at least as far as Harts is concerned.

Unfortunately I also could not find pictures of any of the above in dress uniform, so no way at this point of assessing how far the reality of dress varied from regulations for either the 12^th Pioneers or the 48^th Pioneers during this period.

Presumably it would have been relatively easy to remove the scroll from under the cap badge of the 12^th Pioneers and then use them as collar badges. They might only then be distinguishable by the numerals resting across the axes, which is a level of detail I suspect is just not available on the Staff College picture.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 March , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

On 14/03/2023 at 23:51, PRC said:

Despite there being no-one from the 48^th Pioneers in the 1909, 1910 or 1911 intake shown in Indian Army Lists and the various publication documenting admission and graduation, there still remains the possibility that there was indeed a student there from that regiment.

At the moment Officer 33 would appear to be a 1911 intake, 1913 graduate, so it would seem likely he would turn up from the 1914 Annual Army list onwards shown as “p.s.c.”.

So I’ve tried going through the Regiments Officer establistment in Harts from 1909 onwards for the 48^th Pioneers. However the relevant page in both the 1914 edition held by the National Library of Scotland and the Oxford University copy on Archive org appears to be missing so I couldn’t include the details for that year.

48^th Pioneers

 

Thomas Webster (1909) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1910) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (1911)  -

Arthur John Netherton Harward (1909) Major, (1910) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1911) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1912) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1913) 2^nd in Command, Major, (1915) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant.

Frederick Annesley Andrew (1909) Major, (1910) Major, (1911) Major, with 12^th Pioneers, (1912) Major & 2^nd in Command 107^th Pioneers from 04/05/11, (1913) Major & 2^nd in Command 107^th Pioneers, (1915) Major & 2^nd in Command 121^st Pioneers.

Henry James Riddell (1909) Captain, (1910) Major, (1911) Major, with Imperial Service Corps, (1912) Major, with Imperial Service Corps, (1913) Major, with Imperial Service Corps, (1915) 2^nd in Command, Major.

Charles William Neumann (1909) Captain, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain.

Maurice Eustace Stanley Johnson (1909) Captain, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, Officiating Staff Captain, Lucknow, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain, Staff College, Quetta from February 1914.

Aubrey Vickers (1909), Captain, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain.

George Hewett (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain, (1912) Captain, (1913) Captain, (1915) Captain.

Gerald Charles Drinan (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Captain, (1911) Captain & S.S.O. Bareilly, (1912) Captain & S.S.O. Bareilly, (1913) Captain & S.S.O. Bareilly, (1915) Captain.

Clement James Boyce (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant Supply and Transport Corps, (1911) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1912) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1913) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1914) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class, (1915) Captain Supply and Transport Officer 5^th Class.

Reginald David de la Cour Corbett (1909) Lieutenant & Adjutant, (1910) Lieutenant & Adjutant, (1911) Captain & Adjutant, (1912) Captain & Adjutant, (1913) Captain & Tutor to Raja of Awa, (1915) Captain & Tutor to Raja of Awa.

Colin Campbell McLennan (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) – (Not in the active service index, but he wasn’t for the previous year either).

David Benjamin Gray (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant, (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant & Quartermaster, (1915) Captain.

Wilton Stransham Oldham (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant, (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Captain.

George Bevan Davies (1909) Lieutenant, (1910) Lieutenant, (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant & Adjutant.

Ernest Wyndham Burdett (1910) Lieutenant (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant

Francis Downie Leslie (1910) Lieutenant (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant & Quartermaster.

Charles Wyndham Somerset (1911) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (from 12^th Pioneers) (1912) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (1913) Lieutenant Colonel & Commandant, (1915) -

Ilay Ferrier (1911) Lieutenant, (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant.

Cyril Arthur Raynor (1912) Lieutenant, (1913) Lieutenant, (1915) Lieutenant.

H.H. Hislop (1915) Lieutenant.

***********************

So no obvious candidate for an officer of the 48^th who went to the Quetta Staff College until Captain Johnson in 1914. And the only Officer who went from the 48^th to the 12^th on attachment during this period, if only briefly, did not go on to the Indian Staff College – at least as far as Harts is concerned.

Unfortunately I also could not find pictures of any of the above in dress uniform, so no way at this point of assessing how far the reality of dress varied from regulations for either the 12^th Pioneers or the 48^th Pioneers during this period.

Presumably it would have been relatively easy to remove the scroll from under the cap badge of the 12^th Pioneers and then use them as collar badges. They might only then be distinguishable by the numerals resting across the axes, which is a level of detail I suspect is just not available on the Staff College picture.

Cheers,
Peter

In truth I don’t have your grasp of who attended what and where, Peter, and so I can only contribute with the uniforms and insignia really.  I’m in a good position with that, especially as I now have both, the regulations that applied to the old regiments relating to the Quetta photos (albeit a couple of years post 1911), plus those that applied after the mergers and reorganisations of 1922.

I only explained/showed the details of the 48th pioneers because I thought it was a matter of a straight comparison between the 12th and 48th for the specific officer that you had in mind.  

With regards to your concluding comment, based on my own experience of regimental duty (in a variety of units), but more importantly long standing reading of unit histories from the old Army, then I don’t think it likely that scrolls were ‘cut off’ insignia to make other insignia.  If anything, sand casting would have been used.

In general though, the dress regulations were largely observed, although we have discovered that one unit not regulated for wearing collar badges did actually do so, so there are always occasional exceptions.

With regards to Gurkha regiments, then if the officers concerned are not in rifle green uniform, then you can exclude Gurkhas as an option and focus on the scarlet clad regiments only.  The drab clad regiments are always clear too, with their pale coloured uniforms and frogged tunics in rifles style.

Hopefully by ruling these regiments out at a glance, then so too can be the officers names associated with those regiments.  Once narrowed down I can then help you with whatever names are left by examining their uniforms and comparing with the regulations to confirm the regiments concerned.

 

Edited 4 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In truth I don’t have your grasp of who attended what and where Peter and so I can only contribute with the uniforms and insignia really.  I’m in a good position with that especially as I now have the regulations that applied to the old regiments relating to the Quetta photos (albeit a couple of years post them), plus those that applied after the mergers and reorganisations of 1922.

Your position is very much one of strength and I for one am grateful for it.

There are a number of assumptions at play here:-

• That the names of all those attending as students and staff during this period are known.
• That their units are correctly stated.
• That there have been no mis-identifcations along the way.
• That presence on any particular Staff college picture is indicative of which intake they might have been part of.
• That each individual was reasonably compliant with the standing dress regulations that applied at the time.

So for me as a straight data exercise there are going to be questions remaining over identification of all of them. To be honest I'm surprised we can say who so many are without a shadow of a doubt.

In a past life when part of my job was to mash together incomplete databases or repair broken ones by filling in the gaps with data that could be inferred, I would have to put together a Confidence Key. This was being done in a commercial setting, was usually in a hurry, and the people using the data were making big bucks decisions so needed to know if it could be relied on. For something like this the confidence key would look like:-

Officer 33 as photographed is undoubtedly from a Pioneer Regiment. Dress regulations tells us he is most likely 44th Pioneers. Admissions and graduations lists tell us the only likely match is Cuthbert Culpoys Cunningham of the 12th Pioneers. So enough evidence to make him a "Maybe" on the confidence key but nothing more.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, PRC said:

Your position is very much one of strength and I for one am grateful for it.

There are a number of assumptions at play here:-

• That the names of all those attending as students and staff during this period are known.
• That their units are correctly stated.
• That there have been no mis-identifcations along the way.
• That presence on any particular Staff college picture is indicative of which intake they might have been part of.
• That each individual was reasonably compliant with the standing dress regulations that applied at the time.

So for me as a straight data exercise there are going to be questions remaining over identification of all of them. To be honest I'm surprised we can say who so many are without a shadow of a doubt.

In a past life when part of my job was to mash together incomplete databases or repair broken ones by filling in the gaps with data that could be inferred, I would have to put together a Confidence Key. This was being done in a commercial setting, was usually in a hurry, and the people using the data were making big bucks decisions so needed to know if it could be relied on. For something like this the confidence key would look like:-

Officer 33 as photographed is undoubtedly from a Pioneer Regiment. Dress regulations tells us he is most likely 44th Pioneers. Admissions and graduations lists tell us the only likely match is Cuthbert Culpoys Cunningham of the 12th Pioneers. So enough evidence to make him a "Maybe" on the confidence key but nothing more.

Cheers,
Peter

I understand Peter, the chart is a very good visual explanation of how the veracity analysis works.

 It would be so helpful to have photos of other officers of the 12th and 48th pioneers to compare with, as you’ve pointed out.  I’m sure that there will be images out there, but tracking them down is very hard to do.  If only we could readily access the Indian Collection at RMAS!

Edited 15 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 14/03/2023 at 22:23, Bob Davies said:

We may need your expertise for this one @PRC in the way of a side by side or other knowledge. Herbert Claude McWatters was an 'Old Cliftonian' if my research is correct. Listed in a book 'Clifton College Annals and Register'. link here;https://archive.org/details/cliftoncollegean00clifiala/page/340/mode/2up?q=+McWatters  Also listed is a G A McWatters with the same father, here is a picture of him, if Ancestry be correct?

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Best I could do by way of a comparsion. Not only is there reflective glare on the picture of the brother but I think from the angle it has been photographed it has served to narrow his face.

I’m generally even more hesitant than normal to go for an identification when it's based on resemblance to another family member. In this case I couldn’t say with any certainty either way.

Herbert Claude McWatters, was born 19^th October 1878, and baptised 19^th November 1878 in the Protestant church at Coimbatore, son of George and Sarah. Father George worked in the Madras Civil Service.https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XL3-7LP2

·       The Clifton College Annals and register entry for what is likely to be him has been linked to already. H.C. McWatters. Son of G. McWatters, Barrister-at-Law, I.C.S resident Madras, North Town. Herbert left Clifton in December 1896, (when he would have been 18) for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.

·       Herbert would therefore have been 32/33 at the time of the 1911 Haig visit photograoh.

Herbert has an older brother, George Alfred McWatters, born 20^th December 1875. George was baptised on the 1^st April 1876, the son of George and Sarah. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VYM-74LX

·       Clifton College annals and register entry for G.A. McWatters.  Son of G. McWatters, Barrister-at-Law, I.C.S resident Madras, North Town. George left Clifton in April 1892, (when he would have been 16) for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. Went on to serve with the Indian Staff Corps. https://archive.org/details/cliftoncollegean00clifiala/page/292/mode/2up?q=+McWatters

·       George would go on to marry Ellen Mary Christina (“Ina”) Harvey, of the Harveys Bristol Cream family. Their first son, George Edward McWatters would become head of the company as well as a Governor at Clifton. There are a number of pictures online.

Herbert also had a younger brother Arthur Cecil McWatters, born 13^th September 1880 and baptised 3^rd November 1880 in the Protestant church at Calicut, son of George and Sarah. Father George worked in the Madras Civil Service. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6·       Clifton College annals and register entry for A.C. McWatters.  Son of G. McWatters, Barrister-at-Law, I.C.S resident Madras, North Town. https://archive.org/details/cliftoncollegean00clifiala/page/346/mode/2up?q=+McWatters

·       May be a co-incidence but by 1917 the signature of an A.C. McWatters was appearing on Bank of India paper notes. (Image courtesy https://marudhararts.com/printed-auction/auction-no-35/lot-no-642/bank-note-of-india/british-india-notes/k-g-v-/1-rupee/-extremely-rare-pmg-graded-62-one-rupee-banknote-of-king-george-v-signed-by-a-c-mcwatters-of-1917-of-universalised-circle-.html

Edit. Arthurs' son Stephen McWatters first taught and then became headmaster at Clifton College, so I suspect the College may have some helpful stuff on the family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_McWatters

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 9 October , 2023 by PRC
09/10/23 Re-instate images

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Best I could do by way of a comparsion. Not only is there reflective glare on the picture of the brother but I think from the angle it has been photographed it has served to narrow his face.

I’m generally even more hesitant than normal to go for an identification when it's based on resemblance to another family member. In this case I couldn’t say with any certainty either way.

Herbert Claude McWatters, was born 19^th October 1878, and baptised 19^th November 1878 in the Protestant church at Coimbatore, son of George and Sarah. Father George worked in the Madras Civil Service.https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XL3-7LP2

·       The Clifton College Annals and register entry for what is likely to be him has been linked to already. H.C. McWatters. Son of G. McWatters, Barrister-at-Law, I.C.S resident Madras, North Town. Herbert left Clifton in December 1896, (when he would have been 18) for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.

·       Herbert would therefore have been 32/33 at the time of the 1911 Haig visit photograoh.

Herbert has an older brother, George Alfred McWatters, born 20^th December 1875. George was baptised on the 1^st April 1876, the son of George and Sarah. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VYM-74LX

·       Clifton College annals and register entry for G.A. McWatters.  Son of G. McWatters, Barrister-at-Law, I.C.S resident Madras, North Town. George left Clifton in April 1892, (when he would have been 16) for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. Went on to serve with the Indian Staff Corps. https://archive.org/details/cliftoncollegean00clifiala/page/292/mode/2up?q=+McWatters

·       George would go on to marry Ellen Mary Christina (“Ina”) Harvey, of the Harveys Bristol Cream family. Their first son, George Edward McWatters would become head of the company as well as a Governor at Clifton. There are a number of pictures online.

Herbert also had a younger brother Arthur Cecil McWatters, born 13^th September 1880 and baptised 3^rd November 1880 in the Protestant church at Calicut, son of George and Sarah. Father George worked in the Madras Civil Service. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6X2F-4W69

·       Clifton College annals and register entry for A.C. McWatters.  Son of G. McWatters, Barrister-at-Law, I.C.S resident Madras, North Town. https://archive.org/details/cliftoncollegean00clifiala/page/346/mode/2up?q=+McWatters

·       May be a co-incidence but by 1917 the signature of an A.C. McWatters was appearing on Bank of India paper notes. (Image courtesy https://marudhararts.com/printed-auction/auction-no-35/lot-no-642/bank-note-of-india/british-india-notes/k-g-v-/1-rupee/-extremely-rare-pmg-graded-62-one-rupee-banknote-of-king-george-v-signed-by-a-c-mcwatters-of-1917-of-universalised-circle-.html

 

Edit. Arthurs' son Stephen McWatters first taught and then became headmaster at Clifton College, so I suspect the College may have some helpful stuff on the family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_McWatters

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you for the side by side Peter and looking into the McWatters brothers and family some more. Yes I too am hesitant to make any decisions on identification from a brothers photo. They could look very similar or totally unalike. Interesting about the signature on the bank note! So we have 2 emails to send, one to Clifton College regarding 'McWatters' and one to Sherborne School regarding 'Cunningham'. It will be pointless and counter productive if we all send one, so does anyone want the job? We also need permission from Mike @mrfrank to do it, I believe, as the original picture belongs to him.

[Bob Davies]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not sure what it is that you’re unclear of Bob but if you let me know I’ll try to explain.  Blue Patrol uniform was an ‘undress’ category and doesn’t feature in this thread, whereas the tunics seen in the Quetta photos and that we’ve been examining are ‘full dress’.

Q 1; Are the Officers in these pictures (From a history of the 97th Deccan Infantry page 49. Reproduced by Peter) wearing Blue Patrol uniforms (undress)? 

Q 2; Is the Officer in this picture wearing 'full dress'? He is G. L. J. Cavendish 97th Deccan Infantry, also pictured on left of the top picture. Uniform Scarlet. Facings Dark Green.

Q 3; Do they also have a khaki uniform for use in the field shooting at the enemy etc, at this period of time 1910/1912. Such as the bottom picture of V G Menzies who we seek?

I know they also have a 'mess dress' Do they have any other types of uniform? There may be more questions for you FROGSMILE but I think I am ahead, if the answers to 1,2 and 3 are yes. Best Wishes, Bob.

'G L J Cavendish' courtesy of Lives of the first word war.

Edit: the book where the pictures come from. Link;https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.06500/page/n1/mode/2up

 

Edited 15 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/03/2023 at 20:11, Bob Davies said:

Q 1; Are the Officers in these pictures (From a history of the 97th Deccan Infantry page 49. Reproduced by Peter) wearing Blue Patrol uniforms (undress)? 

Q 2; Is the Officer in this picture wearing 'full dress'? He is G. L. J. Cavendish 97th Deccan Infantry, also pictured on left of the top picture. Uniform Scarlet. Facings Dark Green.

Q 3; Do they also have a khaki uniform for use in the field shooting at the enemy etc, at this period of time 1910/1912. Such as the bottom picture of V G Menzies who we seek?

I know they also have a 'mess dress' Do they have any other types of uniform? There may be more questions for you FROGSMILE but I think I am ahead, if the answers to 1,2 and 3 are yes. Best Wishes, Bob.

'G L J Cavendish' courtesy of Lives of the first word war.

Edit: the book where the pictures come from. Link;https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.06500/page/n1/mode/2up

 

You’ve picked things up very well indeed Bob.

1.  Yes the officers shown are wearing blue patrols, an order of dress that along with frock coats was commonly known as just ‘Blue’ for short (across the whole Army).  Previously it had been a loose fitting jacket with no external upper pockets and several rows of frogging (usually four for Infantry regiments) but that was replaced by the type with breast pockets and then lower pockets too.

2.  Yes that is a full dress tunic of the scarlet type.  Rifle regiments had a different style of tunic altogether, also with rows of frogging and always in a very dark green.  The last type was a pale drab which was unique to the Indian Regiments plus a few auxiliary units in Britain (the latter only until the late 1880s).  This last too had similar frogging to the rifles tunic.

3.  Yes there were two types of khaki dress for wear in the field, one in cotton drill (a stoutly woven twill) and the other in service dress serge.  The first was for hot weather campaigning and the second for cold weather in places such as the North West Frontier.

NB.  In general in India both Imperial and Native units had a cold and hot weather version of each order of dress, including mess dress.  The British officers of Indian cavalry had ten different orders of dress, the infantry officers less.

Afternote:  the enclosed photo shows a regimental garment attributed as follows:

”Indian Army. 97th Deccan Infantry Officer’s Undress [garment]. A good and rare example. Blue serge “frock” with patch pockets and brass buttons bearing regimental title. Lieutenant Colonel’s rank-badges in gilt metal. Medal ribbons removed, otherwise near VGC.”

Edited 23 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Just floating this one to start the discussion.

We know from the named photograph of Vire Gordon Menzies that at the time the picture was taken he had no medal entitlement. The uniform itself seems in keeping with the style worn by the Indian Army Officers on their initial deployment to Egypt and Mesopotamia in the opening months of the war. I may be mistaken but he also appears to have reached the rank of Captain.

Looking at the three remaining unnamed faces that remain, (yes, I know some of the recent ones looked at are only at the maybe stage at this point), it suddenly occurred to me what if Officer 17 was leaning back, or at the very least had his head titlted backwards? Would that mask some of the similarities with Vire Menzies.

Ear shape seems similar, inner and lobes.
Hair colouring seems similar, as does natural parting.
Eye brow shape seems similar.
His top right eyelid has a similar droop.
Jawline and face on the Quetta photograph seems broader but that could be a way he is holding himself, the way the other picture has been taken, etc, etc.

And is the uniform comparable to that dress uniform worn by G.L.J.Cavendish – button design seems similarly chunky.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 15 March , 2023 by PRC
Formatting

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Just floating this one to start the discussion.

We know from the named photograph of Vire Gordon Menzies that at the time the picture was taken he had no medal entitlement. The uniform itself seems in keeping with the style worn by the Indian Army Officers on their initial deployment to Egypt and Mesopotamia in the opening months of the war. I may be mistaken but he also appears to have reached the rank of Captain.

Looking at the three remaining unnamed faces that remain, (yes, I know some of the recent ones looked at are only at the maybe stage at this point), it suddenly occurred to me what if Officer 17 was leaning back, or at the very least had his head titlted backwards? Would that mask some of the similarities with Vire Menzies.

Ear shape seems similar, inner and lobes.
Hair colouring seems similar, as does natural parting.
Eye brow shape seems similar.
His top right eyelid has a similar droop.
Jawline and face on the Quetta photograph seems broader but that could be a way he is holding himself, the way the other picture has been taken, etc, etc.

And is the uniform comparable to that dress uniform worn by G.L.J.Cavendish – button design seems similarly chunky.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Well done again Peter, I think you’re right and both photos show Vire Gordon Menzies.  As officer #17 he’s wearing a scarlet full dress tunic with dark green facings.  As you’ve pointed out he has distinctly laid back his head as part of his posture.  See button design below.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Captain John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis was a 1910 entrant who in theory should be on both Staff College pictures. Coming from an infantry regiment where British Officers wore the scarlet dress uniform, Captain Macrae had yet to qualify for any medals. He was identified on the 1910 image as Officer #53 by comparing him to a known picture from later in life. However even allowing for the passage of time the chin and ears looked like a strong match and even the movement of the parting slightly further down the left hand side of his head wasn’t implausible. But there was no obvious candidate from the 1911 Haig visit photograph.

Meanwhile Officer 12, a monocle wearing officer in a Native Infantry Regiment has been an outstanding identification from the very start of this thread. He had no medal entitlement.

When the 1910 photograph became available there was a monocle wearing officer who for a shortwhile became a possible match as his helmet was pulled down so low on his head that it meant that along with the monocle there was very little of his distinguishing features to see. But that officer was dressed for native cavalry and there was an officer present that matched the unit. A check of the 1911 photograph threw up a likely match for the uniform, although this time sans helmet and monocle.

So Officer 12 remained unidentified and the working theory was that Captain Macrae was not in attendance at the time of the second photograph.

But now we are down to just two unnamed faces on the 1911 photograph that we haven’t even got a name in the frame for. And as far as possible student choices are concerned we have Captain Macrae, Captain Little -  a Ghurka Officer with a medal entitlement who is also on the 1910 photograph, and Major Lindsay a Ghurkha Officer who was a 1911 entrant and with no known medal entitlement.

Fortunately since the identification of Captain Macrae on the 1910 photograph was done, @mrfrank has provided a close-up with a higher resolution. And going back to the early days of the thread, mrfrank also supplied some close-ups of parts of the Haig visit photograph. Officer 12 was on the edge of two of them and only partially visible. I’ve merged those two parts to come up with a composite image, (hence the blurring over his head).

With the detail now available the similarity of chin and ears comes to the fore. And it could be wishful thinking on my part but in the picture of him in later life could it be that his right eye shows the marking associated with monocle wearing.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Captain John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis was a 1910 entrant who in theory should be on both Staff College pictures. Coming from an infantry regiment where British Officers wore the scarlet dress uniform, Captain Macrae had yet to qualify for any medals. He was identified on the 1910 image as Officer #53 by comparing him to a known picture from later in life. However even allowing for the passage of time the chin and ears looked like a strong match and even the movement of the parting slightly further down the left hand side of his head wasn’t implausible. But there was no obvious candidate from the 1911 Haig visit photograph.

 

Meanwhile Officer 12, a monocle wearing officer in a Native Infantry Regiment has been an outstanding identification from the very start of this thread. He had no medal entitlement.

 

When the 1910 photograph became available there was a monocle wearing officer who for a shortwhile became a possible match as his helmet was pulled down so low on his head that it meant that along with the monocle there was very little of his distinguishing features to see. But that officer was dressed for native cavalry and there was an officer present that matched the unit. A check of the 1911 photograph threw up a likely match for the uniform, although this time sans helmet and monocle.

 

So Officer 12 remained unidentified and the working theory was that Captain Macrae was not in attendance at the time of the second photograph.

 

But now we are down to just two unnamed faces on the 1911 photograph that we haven’t even got a name in the frame for. And as far as possible student choices are concerned we have Captain Macrae, Captain Little -  a Ghurka Officer with a medal entitlement who is also on the 1910 photograph, and Major Lindsay a Ghurkha Officer who was a 1911 entrant and with no known medal entitlement.

 

Fortunately since the identification of Captain Macrae on the 1910 photograph was done, @mrfrank has provided a close-up with a higher resolution. And going back to the early days of the thread, mrfrank also supplied some close-ups of parts of the Haig visit photograph. Officer 12 was on the edge of two of them and only partially visible. I’ve merged those two parts to come up with a composite image, (hence the blurring over his head).

 

With the detail now available the similarity of chin and ears comes to the fore. And it could be wishful thinking on my part but in the picture of him in later life could it be that his right eye shows the marking associated with monocle wearing.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

 

Well done Peter,  I’m absolutely convinced that’s him in all three photos. The ears, cleft chin, eye sockets, and intermittent moustache all fit perfectly.  That’s him alright as far as I’m concerned.  Brilliant work!

19th Punjabis wore scarlet with dark blue facings, despite no apparent Royal association, and collar badges were not favoured.

Lowermost photo: “Group of the 19th Punjabis in East Africa, 1914-15 (b/w photo) by English Photographer, (20th century); Private Collection; (add.info.: Photograph from an album of 32 photographs, including two loose, 1914-1915.
Associated with the 19th Punjabis in East Africa, 1914-1915.”

 

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

The last one of this run through is going to be a bit flat after all that - it may be one we can never really put a name to a face on.

Officer 60 appears to be wearing the same style frock coat as the other members of the College Staff, but is sat apart from them.

I've speculated before now that he might be Haigs' ADC, or the resident member of the Indian Medical Service. (From the newspaper reports the IMS man is Captain Robert Alexander Chambers).

I guess we can add to the list that he might be a guest lecturer or part of Haigs Inspectorate team.

I don't think there are any more clues in his uniform that will firmly point us in any one direction, and short of the picture of him turning up somewhere else with a name attached I'm not sure we will ever be any wiser.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

The last one of this run through is going to be a bit flat after all that - it may be one we can never really put a name to a face on.

Officer 60 appears to be wearing the same style frock coat as the other members of the College Staff, but is sat apart from them.

I've speculated before now that he might be Haigs' ADC, or the resident member of the Indian Medical Service. (From the newspaper reports the IMS man is Captain Robert Alexander Chambers).

I guess we can add to the list that he might be a guest lecturer or part of Haigs Inspectorate team.

I don't think there are any more clues in his uniform that will firmly point us in any one direction, and short of the picture of him turning up somewhere else with a name attached I'm not sure we will ever be any wiser.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner).

Cheers,
Peter

You’re right that this is very difficult without a close up view.  The frock coat was universal after 1904 apart from the Household Division in Britain, with Royal Marines featuring three buttons on the cuff as a differential (in line with the slashed cuffs of their tunics).  Buttons determined regimental/corps identity and rank was indicated by the pattern of aiguillette (largely colouration) and the length of plumes on helmets that for staff officers and their aides were white over scarlet.  For the Indian Medical Service though these were black and so an ID might be possible if these are seen (plain red for veterinary).

 

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

17 hours ago, PRC said:

Just floating this one to start the discussion.

I am confident you have found 'Vire Gordon Menzies' and 'John Cecil Macrea' Peter. Well spotted and researched.

 

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

You’ve picked things up very well indeed Bob.

Thank you for confirming all I was thinking on here FROGSMILE and adding your answers, complete with picture. Much appreciated!

Edited 16 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You’re right that this is very difficult without a close up view.  The frock coat was universal after 1904 apart from the Household Division in Britain, with Royal Marines featuring three buttons on the cuff as a differential (in line with the slashed cuffs of their tunics).  Buttons determined regimental/corps identity and rank was indicated by the pattern of aiguillette (largely colouration) and the length of plumes on helmets that for staff officers and their aides were white over scarlet.  For the Indian Medical Service though these were black and so an ID might be possible if these are seen.

There does not look to be any decoration on his epaulettes, though they do look to be darker than the rest of his Frock Coat, nor are there any collar badges. Do these facts have any meaning in identification? Officer 60. 1911.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

There does not look to be any decoration on his epaulettes, though they do look to be darker than the rest of his Frock Coat, nor are there any collar badges. Do these facts have any meaning in identification? Officer 60. 1911.

Collar badges not usually worn by senior staff officers as they were no longer on regimental cadres once they reached the rank of full colonel**.  General officers had twisted bullion shoulder straps but more junior officers their rank on blue straps.

**The picture above with collar badges shows the frock coat of a regimental director of music.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you for confirming all I was thinking on here FROGSMILE and adding your answers, complete with picture. Much appreciated!

These were the various orders of dress Bob#:

Review Order (Types A and B for cavalry).

Hot Weather White.

Hot Weather Khaki.

Marching Order.

Drill Order.

Mess Order (plus white Hot Weather).

Undress Blue** (plus white Hot Weather).

#cavalry had additional orders as mentioned.

**this could be blue frock coats, or blue patrol, according to weather and circumstances.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Collar badges not usually worn by senior staff officers as they were no longer on regimental cadres once they reached the rank of full colonel**.  General officers had twisted bullion shoulder straps but more junior officers their rank on blue straps.

**The picture above with collar badges shows the frock coat of a regimental director of music.

Thank you. The only odd thing on the picture is what is he either holding? Or is just higher than his hands. Something with a diagonal white line on it or that is what we see.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you. The only odd thing on the picture is what is he either holding? Or is just higher than his hands. Something with a diagonal white line on it or that is what we see.

 

The edge of a leather bound notebook, Bob.  Typically carried by staff officers to note down observations for later recall.  The ‘diagonal white line’ is the ambient light reflecting off the book’s spine.

His white Wolseley helmet has a spike, which tells us he’s either cavalry, engineers, infantry, or ordnance.  All others had ball tops (incl Indian Medical Service).  His sword hilt appears to match that too.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Fourth summary of the 1910-1911 Staff College photo :-

[Numbers in square brackets are the same officer on the 1911 picture].

1: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). One of the 1910 entrants.  Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919.[26]
2: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. One of the 1910 entrants.  He commanded the 11^th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War. [4]
3: David Graeme Ridgeway, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Staff Captain D.G. Ridgeway, 3^rd Gurkhas). 1914 Harts give us David Graeme Ridgeway, Bedford Regiment, 2^nd Bn, 3^rd Goorkha Regiment and Brigade Major. Sirkind Brigade.
4: Possibly William Marshall Fordham, 20th D.C.O. Infantry, (2 x MiC for a Lieutenant-Colonel W.M. Fordham, one as 20th Infantry and the other serving with the 20th D C O Infantry, Indian Army. He served on the North West Frontier, between 1897 and 1898, in China during the Boxer Rebellion, in 1900).
5: John Gwynne Griffith, 32nd Lancers. As Major, 32nd Lancers and staff of the 9th Cavalry Brigade, died on the 24th May 1915, aged 40, killed in action.
6: Digby Inglis Shuttleworth, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles. (MiCs for a D.F and D.J. Shuttleworth, Staff Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel)
7: Possibly Patrick Sinclair Stoney, 26^th Punjabis. (MiC as Major P.S Stoney 26^th Punjabi’s). Eligible for IGS Medal + clasp (1908 Ops in Mohmand) at the time of the photograph.
8: William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery, (MiC for a Brigadier General William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery. Landed France 14^th August 1914 as Major and G.S.O. 3, General Headquarters, 1^st Echelon).
9: Probably Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 entrants.  Subsequently 2^nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18^th November 1916 while attached 7^th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. [41]
10: Hugh Hill, M.V.O., Royal Welsh Fusiliers.
11: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. One of the 1910 entrant. [28]
12: Probably Meredith Ashton Hamer, 129^th D.C.O. Ballochi’s. (MiC as Major M.A. Hamer, 129^th Baluchi Infantry, Staff and Headquarters).
13: Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiCs for Major & Staff Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 2/3^rd Gurkha Rifles and Lieutenant Colonel 12^th Indian Infantry Brigade).
14: Probably Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121^st Pioneers. [47]
15: Probably John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse). 1910 entrant. Service from December 1914 to July 1918 seems to have been on staff of Cavalry Brigade \ Division \ Corps in France.National Army Museum hold his six medals. [25]
16: Probably Cyril Mosley Wagstaff, Royal Engineers (MiC - Brig. Gen Sir Cyril Mosley Wagstaff). 1909 Entrant.
17: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs. [45]
18: Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias, 1^st K.G.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Major A.H.W. Elias-Wynn, 2/1^st Gurkhas serving with the RAF as Lieutenant-Colonel.Subsequently Group Captain RAF).
19: Probably Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras. 1910 entrant. [36]
20: James Atkinson Longridge, Supply and Transport Corps. (MiCs for Lieutenant Colonel J.A. Longridge, 43^rd Erinpura Regiment and General Headquarters Staff).
21: Probably Frederick Stewart Keen, 45th Rattray’s Sikhs. (MIC as Temporary Lieutenant-Colonel and Staff Major F.S. Keen, D.S.O., 45th Sikhs).
22: Walter Joseph Maxwell-Scott, Scottish Rifles – (MiC - Brig.Gen Walter Joseph Maxwell- Scott ex Scottish Rifles – also recorded as Major General Sir Walter J. Constable-Maxwell-Scott)
23: Ernest George Dunn, Royal Irish Rifles (MiC - Major Ernest George Dunn, Poona Division & Royal Irish Rifles.)
24: Herbert Edmund Reginald Rubens Braine, Royal Munster Fusiliers. Medal entitlement QM + 4 clasps and India GS Medal with clasp  (Mohmand 1908). 
25: Probably Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon, 3^rd Skinners Horse (MiCs for MiD Indian Army Staff Major E.C.W. Conway-Gordon, Skinners House). Lives of the First World War as Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5378211
26: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA [44]
27: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal. [42]
28: Probably Oswald Arthur Gerald Fitzgerald, 18^th K.G.O. Lancers. 1909 entrant.
29: David Campbell Crombie, 23rd Cavalry (MiC for Major David Campbell Crombie, 23rd Cavalry & 28th Cavalry, Poona Division.).
30: Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure. [15]
31: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs. One of the 1910 entrants. [40]
32: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp. [35]
33: Probably Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis. 1910 entrant. brigade Major 34^th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7^th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others. [43]
34: Michael George Dobbie Rowlandson, 38th Dogras. (MICs as Brigade Major and Brevet Lieutenant Colonel 15th Indian Infantry Brigade M.G.D. Rowlandson.)
35: Bertram Hewett Hunter Cooke, Rifle Brigade (MiC - Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, C.M.G & D.S.O. Numerous staff positions listed on MiC.) Served with the RAF from its founding.
36: Berkeley Vincent, 6^th Dragoons
37: Theodore Fraser, R.E. (College Staff). [57]
38: Henry Dowrish Drake, Royal Marine Artillery (College Staff). [56]
39: College Commandant Thompson Capper.
40: Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff). [58]
41: Probably Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles, (College Staff). [50]
42: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR. [51]
43: Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA. 1910 entrant. (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt. [3]
44: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles. 1910 entrant. [29]
45: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment. 1910 entrant. [30]
46: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps. 1910 entrant. [16]
47: Francis Duncan Irvine, 2nd Queen's Own Sappers & Miners. 1910 entrant. [9]
48: Joseph Robert Wethered, Gloucestershire Regiment. (MiC - Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Robert Wethered, 14^th Infantry Brigade Staff Major, Captain Gloucestershire Regiment, C.M.G & D.S.O.)
49: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster. 1910 entrant. [34]
50: William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles –The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. No obvious match on the 1911 picture.
51: William Archibald Smail Walker, 46^th Punjabis. Eligible for the IGS Medal + 3 clasps.Defence of Malakand, Landakai and operations in Bajaur – medal with clasps, then served in Tirah. Killed in action at Myima, East Africa on the 12^th April 1915 while attached 130^th Baluchis.
52: Probably Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery. 1910 entrant. [46]
53: Possibly John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis, a 1910 entrant. [12]
54: John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles. 1910 entrant. [27]
55: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear). 1910 entrant. [19]

Cheers,
Peter

Outstanding names

Staff

Major Colin Lawrence MacNab, Royal Sussex Regiment. On the July 1910 Indian Army List as a Professor at the College, but may have left by the time the picture was taken. Picture sources available, but no obvious match on the photograph.
Possible – Captain Dodington George Richard Shurton Baker, Indian Medical Service.

All Captains.

1909 Intake.

1910 Intake

Charles Robertson, 19^th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse). On 1911 picture as [20]

Cheers,
Peter