Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[tankengine888]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Here’s a side by side comparison – note neither man has a service medal entitlement. But are they the same man?

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

My opinion is that they do look the same.. 'seperation' of the hair down the center and hair are virtually the same to me... either that or my 12am eyes are rubbish.

Zidane...

P.S Found a photo! They share similarities, nose is a bit off I think.. Take this photo any way you want, could be another person for all I know!
yes, it's a rubbish photo.

Edit: Probably should've said this was Whitehead.. my fault there.

Edited 11 March , 2023 by tankengine888

[PRC]

34 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

P.S Found a photo! They share similarities, nose is a bit off I think.. Take this photo any way you want, could be another person for all I know!
yes, it's a rubbish photo

Hi - where did you source it? All the leads for him post his time with the Brahmans just fizzled out.

Selected bits from his Wikipedia article and with my emphasis in bold.

Brigadier James Whitehead CB CMG CBE DSO OStJ ADC (18 January 1880–1 December 1955) was a British Indian Army officer who later became a senior officer in the London Metropolitan Police.

Whitehead was the son of Lieutenant-Colonel Edmund Whitehead, an officer in the Black Watch. He was educated at Dulwich College and at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. He was commissioned a second lieutenant into the Royal West Kent Regiment on 12 August 1899, but on 29 October 1901 transferred to the Indian Staff Corps in the Indian Army. He was promoted lieutenant on 12 November 1901 and Captain on 12 August 1908, by which time he was serving with the 1st Brahmans. In 1907 he married Winifred Fanny Fell; they had four sons and one daughter. He attended the Staff College from 1911 to 1912.

By the beginning of 1914, Whitehead was serving as a cadet company commander at Sandhurst and on 4 February 1914 he was granted the temporary rank of major, as was normal for this post. On 14 October 1914, having reverted to captain, he was appointed Deputy Assistant Adjutant-General (DAAG) and on 27 February 1916 he was advanced to Assistant Adjutant-General (AAG) with the temporary rank of lieutenant-colonel. On 3 June 1916 he was made a Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel.

In 1921, he became Director of Organisation at Simla. He was appointed an aide-de-camp to King George V in 1924. He commanded the 11th Indian Infantry Brigade at Abbottabad from 1925 until 1927, when he retired from the army with the rank of brigadier.

He was appointed a chief constable in the Metropolitan Police on 1 October 1927. He commanded No.1 District (West End, Hammersmith and Wandsworth). He was promoted to Deputy Assistant Commissioner on 29 June 1933, when district commanders were given that rank for the first time, and Assistant Commissioner "A" on 30 September 1933. In this role, he was in charge of organisation and uniformed policing. He retired from the police in 1938.

In 1939, he was recalled to the army, serving as deputy adjutant-general with the British Expeditionary Force in France. After returning to Britain in 1940, he commanded the Home Guard in the London District. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Whitehead_(police_officer)

Cheers,
Peter

[tankengine888]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Hi - where did you source it? All the leads for him post his time with the Brahmans just fizzled out.

Selected bits from his Wikipedia article and with my emphasis in bold.

 

Brigadier James Whitehead CB CMG CBE DSO OStJ ADC (18 January 1880–1 December 1955) was a British Indian Army officer who later became a senior officer in the London Metropolitan Police.

 

Whitehead was the son of Lieutenant-Colonel Edmund Whitehead, an officer in the Black Watch. He was educated at Dulwich College and at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. He was commissioned a second lieutenant into the Royal West Kent Regiment on 12 August 1899, but on 29 October 1901 transferred to the Indian Staff Corps in the Indian Army. He was promoted lieutenant on 12 November 1901 and Captain on 12 August 1908, by which time he was serving with the 1st Brahmans. In 1907 he married Winifred Fanny Fell; they had four sons and one daughter. He attended the Staff College from 1911 to 1912.

 

By the beginning of 1914, Whitehead was serving as a cadet company commander at Sandhurst and on 4 February 1914 he was granted the temporary rank of major, as was normal for this post. On 14 October 1914, having reverted to captain, he was appointed Deputy Assistant Adjutant-General (DAAG) and on 27 February 1916 he was advanced to Assistant Adjutant-General (AAG) with the temporary rank of lieutenant-colonel. On 3 June 1916 he was made a Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel.

 

In 1921, he became Director of Organisation at Simla. He was appointed an aide-de-camp to King George V in 1924. He commanded the 11th Indian Infantry Brigade at Abbottabad from 1925 until 1927, when he retired from the army with the rank of brigadier.

 

He was appointed a chief constable in the Metropolitan Police on 1 October 1927. He commanded No.1 District (West End, Hammersmith and Wandsworth). He was promoted to Deputy Assistant Commissioner on 29 June 1933, when district commanders were given that rank for the first time, and Assistant Commissioner "A" on 30 September 1933. In this role, he was in charge of organisation and uniformed policing. He retired from the police in 1938.

 

In 1939, he was recalled to the army, serving as deputy adjutant-general with the British Expeditionary Force in France. After returning to Britain in 1940, he commanded the Home Guard in the London District. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Whitehead_(police_officer)

 

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter,

My 1am mind is all over the place, i could only find a photo for Whitehead going of the dates off that wiki page you posted. so I took a jab at trying to find a photo, and found only one attached to a few ancestry profiles. I has it to guess that the photo I linked was during his time in the Home Guard judging by the Americans visible in the background.. but he isn't in home guard attire, so I don't even know anymore..

long story short: ancestry

Zidane.

p.s i assume you'll say it's unreliable [of sorts]

Edited 11 March , 2023 by tankengine888

[PRC]

Stretching a little knowledge far too thin and definately in need of a sight test but:-

• I think the cap badge worn by this officer is WW2 appropriate for a General \ General Staff Officer.
• Unit title on his shoulder ends in a "D", even possibly "RD", so tempting to think the whole thing reads "HOME GUARD".
• The soldier standing behing our mans right shoulder could similarly have a shoulder title that reads "HOME GUARD" although I can't make out specific letters, only overall shape.
• Behind his left shoulder I believe might be a member of a Civil Defence Organisation. I don't think his cap badge is the eight pointed star of the Auxiliary Fire Service but looks very similar, and the additional points may have been 'lost' as a result of the distorted angle \ low grade resolution.

As for Ancestry I've no doubt the person who put it up believes the correct identification has been made. I just follow a policy of "respect -  then verify"

Cheers,
Peter

[tankengine888]

Yeah, that man behind him is definitely a home guard man.. or maybe im going senile..

The cap badge is definitely for officers on the staff. I believe up to Brigadier..

Anyways, the photo looks like something taken out of a photo album, so I thinks it Whitehead.. but I think the picture is a bit inconclusive in identifying him.

Zidane.

[Bob Davies]

Just now, PRC said:

Hi - where did you source it? All the leads for him post his time with the Brahmans just fizzled out.

I saw this picture on an ancestry family tree a week ago but decided it may muddy the waters somewhat and I decided not to post it. Yes I believe the owner thinks it to be a picture of 'James Whitehead'.  The tree looks well researched to my eye. From my research he was born India 18th Jan 1880, Died 1st Dec1955.He is listed as R West Kent Regiment. Courtesy Fold 3;

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Anyways, the photo looks like something taken out of a photo album, so I thinks it Whitehead.. but I think the picture is a bit inconclusive in identifying him.

We're on shaky ground as it's still to be confirmed that Officer 6 is serving with the 1st Brahmans.
And it's only with that confirmation that serious consideration of whether Officer 6 is James Whitehead kicks in.
He's not specifically named on the 1904 photo of the 1st Brahmans, so could just be a co-incidence.

However if the unit gets verified and the physical similarity passes muster, then I think the WW2 era image could well help - shape of ears, eyebrows and jaws all have somthing to recommend them.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

PS - if your senile, what does that make me

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

We're on shaky ground as it's still to be confirmed that Officer 6 is serving with the 1st Brahmans.
And it's only with that confirmation that serious consideration of whether Officer 6 is James Whitehead kicks in.
He's not specifically named on the 1904 photo of the 1st Brahmans, so could just be a co-incidence.

However if the unit gets verified and the physical similarity passes muster, then I think the WW2 era image could well help - shape of ears, eyebrows and jaws all have somthing to recommend them.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

PS - if your senile, what does that make me

I agree that all three photos show the same officer.  The 1st Brahmans did indeed wear scarlet with white facings and no collar badge.  See group photo below (Medical Officer seated on the ground).  In the other group photo of 1st Brahmans dressed in khaki, I think that subject officer is seated far left as we look**.  Regimental list as at 1914 below.  Note that Whitehead was a double company commander by then and with post nominals psc.

**apologies, I see now you’ve already spotted this 1904 image.

Edited 11 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Well.. when I say I'm old to my grandparents (my guardians, both parents work + divorced on good terms), I usually call them ancient..

it's 2am, I've been up for a long while, my eyes are watering and ceasing to remain open for much longer.. so I shall now go into a temporary state of comatose for a good 10 hours

Frogsmile, the man on the far left in the last photo is the one we've been using to reference I think?? I can't remember 

Zidane

[Bob Davies]

Just now, PRC said:

We're on shaky ground as it's still to be confirmed that Officer 6 is serving with the 1st Brahmans.
And it's only with that confirmation that serious consideration of whether Officer 6 is James Whitehead kicks in.
He's not specifically named on the 1904 photo of the 1st Brahmans, so could just be a co-incidence.

However if the unit gets verified and the physical similarity passes muster, then I think the WW2 era image could well help - shape of ears, eyebrows and jaws all have somthing to recommend them.

I would say you have him from the 1904 and 1911 pictures Peter. From Harts list 1904 below. He has the same mention in 1908 Harts list and then as a captain 1911. 1912 same Harts list but 'Staff College Quetta Feb 11'.   Courtesy Nat Library Scotland;

Edited 11 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

I would say you have him from the 1904 and 1911 pictures Peter. From Harts list 1904 below. He has the same mention in 1908 Harts list and then as a captain 1911. 1912 same Harts list but 'Staff College Quetta Feb 11'.

Thanks Bob, @FROGSMILE and @tankengine888 - I think thats another we can bank

51 down, 9 to go, although it won't be easy. At least 1 of the outstanding names is a Gurkha, 2 if you include William Campbell Little , but there isn't an obvious Gurkha among the unnamed faces. I just hope we haven't got a mis-identification somewhere in there.

The 9 still without a name are:-

2: Infantry, one medal. Indian regiment given absence of collar badge and his tunic is of pre 1903 pattern with a higher collar. 
12: Infantry. No medals. From an Indian regiment and pre 1903 tunic with higher collar.
17: Infantry. No medals. Indian infantry probably with Royal appellation/association as facings appear to be dark blue.
18: Infantry. No medals. Possibly 113th Infantry Regiment as appears to be a metal sphinx on a darkish (perhaps green) collar.
24: Infantry? One medal – with clasp?
31: Native Cavalry?
32: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?
33: Possibly 48th Pioneers
60: College Staff?

Outstanding names

College Staff

Possible -  Captain Robert Alexander Chambers, Indian Medical Service.

Students

1910 Intake

John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis (possible match on the 1910 picture [53]).
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the 1911 Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. Possible match on the 1910 picture [50].

1911 Intake

Major Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.
Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers
Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis
Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs
Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4 – although that has been queried.
Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis  - Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps.
Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry -­ Image available but no obvious match. No obvious uniform match either.   
Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

Have we seen this picture of Withers yet? I have a feeling we have...courtesy Ancestry

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Have we seen this picture of Withers yet? I have a feeling we have

Back on page 3. Working on him at the moment but he's another one I keep running into dead ends on.
Comparison images also available for Macrae, Little, Lindsay, Underhill and Menzies but no obvious match on the 1911 Haig visit photograph.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

Here is a list I compiled in order of age/date born. It may help?

Alexander Bertram Lindsay.            11-Dec-1872

William Campbell Little.                  26-Feb-1875

Vire Gordon Menzies.                     13-Aug-1875

Charles McGregor Withers.            30-Nov-1876

Herbert Claude McWatters.            19-Oct-1878

Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston.   27-Oct-1878

Henry Charles Swinburne Ward.   12-June-1879

John Cecil Macrae.                            1Sept-1881

Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham.      13-Oct-1881

Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill.   2-Feb-1882

Not forgetting;     Robert Alexander Chambers.                   1-Oct-1881  

 

 

Edited 11 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Charles McGregor Withers.            30-Nov-1876

That does. When I first looked for Captain Withers, (back on page 3 I was at the start of a very steep learning curve, (still on it!) and presumed that I would be looking for someone with the same collar pattern to that to be seen on the painting of him on the Europeans in East Africa website. https://www.europeansineastafrica.co.uk/_site/custom/database/?a=viewIndividual&pid=2&person=22597

What I hadn't realised was that so many of these units ceased to exist, being amalgamated and renamed in the post-war years or as part of the financial constraints of the early thirties. Thus the 87th Punjabis became the 5th Battalion, 2nd Punjab Regiment in 1922. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/87th_Punjabis

And these men were in training to become Staff Officers, and a not insignificant number would go on to be Generals. So collar colour and style \ cuffs, etc, could be an irrelevance in identifying the right man.

Looking again at the painting I can see now from the medals on display that it presents an image of him from at least the mid-1920s, some 15 plus years later, so probably aged 50 or more.

I couldn't find any useful photographs of the 87th Punjabis online - the drawings and models all seem to either hide the key areas or related to native other ranks and NCO's.

I then used the CWGC database to identify officers who died in the Great War while serving on the establishment of the 87th Punjabis, (some were then attached to other units when they died).  With a name I tried looking for pictures - some were in field uniform for India \ Mesopotamia, others in field uniform for France & Flanders, others in civilian clothes, and three in dress uniform - but none of those agreed with each other.

To check they had been serving with the 87th Punjabis pre-war I'd used the 1909 Harts Army List entry for the Regiment. https://archive.org/details/hartsannualarmy1909lond/page/800/mode/2up?q=87+Punjabis&view=theater

In an attempt to increase the numbers available for comparison I then went through the other officers not already covered by CWGC looking for pictures, but drew a blank.

And checking out Wikipedia again it told me that while the Regiment wore a red uniform, from 1882 the facings had been yellow, from 1905 green, and 1911 emerald green. With service for some of the individuals going back to the late 1880's there was plenty of potential for a picture to turn up of them wearing any one of those permutations.

So I went back to look at the unidentifed faces and to see if any of the three variations I could find matched it - and I believe it's possible from that approach that we could be looking at Officer 24.

At the time of Haigs' visit Captain Withers was entitled to wear the African General Service medal with two clasps. The medal being worn by Officer 24 appears to have at least one clasp, with possibly a second.

So from left to right we have a picture of Captain Templer Henry Scott, 87th Punjabis; Officer 24 from the 1911 photograph; and the painting from later in life of Charles McGregor Withers,

Image of Captain Templer Henry Scott courtesy Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5471725

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

It's very weak - I can't even guarantee that Captain Scott is wearing the uniform that would have been appropriate for Captain Withers at the time the latter attended the staff college. I'm also expecting the passage of time to account for a great deal on the appearance side. On the plus side, if the painting shows the African General Service medal with two clasps then I would contend so does the earlier photograph of Officer 24.

But there you have it - and I'm fully expecting this one to be shot down in flames.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[mrfrank]

I might be wrong, but #32 seems a much better candidate for Charles McGregor Withers.

Not only does he provide a decent match to the later image, he is also definitely wearing the AGS Medal + 2 clasps in the 1911 photo (that he is wearing to the left in the later image)

#24 appears to be wearing the India Medal + 1 clasp in the 1911 photo. 

Edited 11 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[Bob Davies]

30 minutes ago, PRC said:

But there you have it - and I'm fully expecting this one to be shot down in flames.

Cheers,
Peter

I think from the pictures we have, 24 is the nearest match to 'Withers' in the painting. Ears are the right type, younger 24 has a chubbier face but size of top lip and mustache area are the same. There is an earnest look given in both pictures. As a wearer of a mustache, one gets used to the type one wants and likes and feels easy with. I am confident to say that if he had a long, waxed 'tache in 1911 then he would be wearing the same 20 or more years later. Our man wears the same clipped 'tache in both pictures.   At the moment I am with the '113th Infantry' on Harts List. Courtesy of @FROGSMILE some pages back with the Sphinx collar badges.

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

I might be wrong, but #32 seems a much better candidate for Charles McGregor Withers.

Not only does he provide a decent match to the later image, he is also definitely wearing the AGS Medal + 2 clasps in the 1911 photo (that he is wearing to the left in the later image)

#24 appears to be wearing the India Medal + 1 clasp in the 1911 photo

See what you mean about the face - I've obviously looked at too many today and may have lost the plot. It's not helped by a mental block when it comes to the medals.
Good job I'm not the only one doing the searching

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

I totally agree with all your comments about the changes in regimental title (amalgamations) and concomitant alteration of uniform Peter.  The British Indian Army went through similar reforms to those imposed upon the Imperial British Army, in three phases over roughly two decades and, as you’ve pointed out, that was sometimes within the lifetime of an individual officer’s totality of service.  He might start with say the ‘Bengal Army’ in a numbered regiment, then in the same regiment be renumbered as part of a unified Indian Army in 1902, but still within a single battalion regiment, only to end up exactly two decades later in a multi battalion regiment, all whilst retaining the same lineage.  In the most extreme case he might have changed uniform three times at regimental duty and then again if reaching the rank of full colonel.

I’m afraid I don’t see the three photos you’ve posted as being the same officer, despite one or two facial similarities.

Edited 11 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Thanks for that side by side presentation of the images above Peter. Think there’s a strong resemblance there to #32 myself - despite the time difference in the images. 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks for that side by side presentation of the images above Peter. Think there’s a strong resemblance there to #32 myself - despite the time difference in the images. 

Yes I agree that #32 looks like Withers in the scarlet tunic (colonel on staff pattern) colour image, and did not mean to give the impression otherwise.  It’s the other fellow annotated as in the 87th Punjabis that doesn’t chime. 

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

No problem Bob…it’s certainly not easy to pinpoint these individuals, but think we’re doing well collectively considering all the difficulties.
#32 seems a good visual match and is supported by the medals matching the entitlement. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, mrfrank said:

No problem Bob…it’s certainly not easy to pinpoint these individuals, but think we’re doing well collectively considering all the difficulties.
#32 seems a good visual match and is supported by the medals matching the entitlement. 

Yes I think clearly the same man, so that’s another success chalked up for Peter.

[Bob Davies]

On 08/03/2023 at 11:27, FROGSMILE said:

As promised I’ve gone through all the “Infantry in Scarlet” in Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) and to my surprise found a single regiment that uniquely featured (and took great pride in) a Sphinx collar badge, the only Indian regiment to do so.  Dressed in scarlet with yellow facings they were the 113th Infantry Regiment.

The only Officer of the 113th Infantry I can find from around this time is 'Louis Ridley Vaughan' A lieutenant General in the Great War. He attended the Staff College at Camberley 1908/10. Harts lists and Indian Army Lists. There are plenty of photos but if he was not at Quetta then no point to compare them? A picture here, link;https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp56700/sir-louis-ridley-vaughan

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

The only Officer of the 113th Infantry I can find from around this time is 'Louis Ridley Vaughan' A lieutenant General in the Great War. He attended the Staff College at Camberley 1908/10. Harts lists and Indian Army Lists. There are plenty of photos but if he was not at Quetta then no point to compare them? A picture here, link;https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp56700/sir-louis-ridley-vaughan

It doesn’t look like the officer in the photo Bob and the General officer appears to be a little older than would work as a solution.  Also although the badge in the photo does look like a Sphinx, and the 113th were the only Indian regiment with that rare honour, I cannot be 100% certain that is what it is, the photo simply isn’t clear enough to give us anything but an outline shape.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE