Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[PRC]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a monumental work you’ve done there Peter, thank you for taking the time and trouble to lay it out in such a comprehensive and accessible way.  R G Harris was a well respected historian in his day and specialised in the British Indian Army and Irish Regiments.  Sadly he is rather forgotten now outside of the narrow world of those of us who study those areas.  There seem few like him today.

Thanks frogsmile - it seemed too good a source to leave it just gathering internet dust

I've just recut the information to tie it more directly to the image of each man.

On 25/02/2023 at 17:32, PRC said:

As the identification of Ward as officer 20 was now in doubt, I thought I should take a look to see if this also undermined the case for Giles and Torrie.

Back on Saturday I asked if the identification of E.D. Giles, 35th Scinde Horse, as Officer 8 on the 1911 picture, and T.G.J. Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry as Officer 41 on the 1911 picture, was now in question. The same process of matching uniforms to a picture of those at the Cavalry School in 1910 had given us H.C.S. Ward, 2nd Lancers (Gardner’s Horse) as a match for Officer 20, but that now seems to be very much in question.

Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse (ex 5th Bombay Cavalry). Only on the 1911 Quetta picture.

Uniform comparison comes from Officer 24 Cavalry School photo – Lieutenant J.N. Simonds

The article by R.G. Harris details that the uniform of 35th Scinde Horse was blue with white facings.

In my opinion the uniform match is looking good.

Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 entrants. On the 1910 photograph as Officer 9.

Uniform comparison Officer 54 Cavalry School photo – Lieutenant V.E.P. Jackson.

The article by R.G. Harris details that the uniform of British Officers of Madras Cavalry regiments did not wear the kurta for full dress but British Lancer pattern tunic, etc, of French grey with buff plastron, collar, cuffs.

The more I look at these images the more I realise how the wearing of those cords could vary enormously, even between pictures taken of the same individual relatively close together in time. And although its low quality, it’s just about possible to make out the buttons retaining the plastron in place. But looking at the Cavalry School article there appears to be several of the Light Cavalry regiments who were similarly attired. So I’m hesitant to call it a match due to the dark base on the collar of the two images believed to be of Captain Torrie, which appears to be missing from the image of Lieutenant Jackson.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 1 March , 2023 by PRC
Add pictures

[Bob Davies]

@PRC Have we used this picture yet? Major E D Giles, courtesy IWM Edit;  Also courtesy of Fold 3.https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205294864

Edited 2 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

25 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Have we used this picture yet? Major E D Giles

No we haven't - good find

He is stated to be a Staff Major and on the back it says the picture was purchased in June 1918.

Looks like he is wearing a D.S.O. medal ribbon. That was gazetted in the Supplement to the London Gazette, 3rd June 1916, when his rank was still recorded as Captain. (Start of the list stating the award is on the preceding page). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29608/supplement/5567/data.pdf

The London Gazette of the 17th November 1916 backdates his appointment as a Temporary Major to the 1st September 1915. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29828/page/11167/data.pdf

So realistically looking at it being taken between June 1916 and June 1918.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

Edited 3 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

Can’t really get these images any sharper. Nevertheless, hope they’re useful.
 

Edited 3 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[Bob Davies]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

No we haven't - good find

He is stated to be a Staff Major and on the back it says the picture was purchased in June 1918.

Looks like he is wearing a D.S.O. medal ribbon. That was gazetted in the Supplement to the London Gazette, 3rd June 1916, when his rank was still recorded as Captain. (Start of the list stating the award is on the preceding page). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29608/supplement/5567/data.pdf

The London Gazette of the 17th November 1916 backdates his appointment as a Temporary Major to the 1st September 1915. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29828/page/11167/data.pdf

So realistically looking at it being taken between June 1916 and June 1918.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks for the side by side shot Peter. The turban makes his face look longer but if one covers the head gear on both pictures with a blank piece of paper it gives a better idea. The mustache, nose, cheeks, lips and chin all look very similar so I would say it is the same man.

[PRC]

Latest Summary for the 1911 Staff College picture featuring Douglas Haig, owner @mrfrank – [1910 picture numbers in square brackets].

1: Thomas Anselan Pollok-Morris, Highland Light Infantry
2: Infantry, one medal. Indian regiment given absence of collar badge and his tunic is of pre 1903 pattern with a higher collar. 
3: Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt.[43]
4: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. White plastron of Imperial style (the Indian was different). One of the 1910 entrants.  He commanded the 11th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War.[2]
5: Arthur Richard Careless Sanders R.E. (RE as evidenced by wavy line pouch belt).
6: Infantry. No medals.
7: Infantry? No medals. Indian infantry and probably Sikh without Royal appellation/association going by coloured facings and qoit collar badge.
8: Probably Edward Douglas Giles, 35th Horse (ex 5^th Bombay Cavalry).
9: Francis Duncan Irvine (Royal Engineers), 2nd Queen’s Own Sappers & Miners. Definitely RE officer, attached to Sappers & Miners but retained parent uniform. [47]
10: Possibly Suffolk Regiment but no one from that regiment known to be attending. Frogsmile - I know of no Indian regiment with Gibraltar castle badge, but Suffolk’s white facings were changed at turn of century, so it implies he’s been away from regimental duty for some time.  
11: Probably Henry Bingham Whistler Smith-Rewse, RFA
12: Infantry No medals. From an Indian regiment and pre 1903 tunic with higher collar.
13: Probably Clarence Reginald MacDonald, Royal Warwickshire Regiment who had at this time QM+3, KM+2, India Medal+1 (NWF 1897-8). This Officer seems to have the QM with at least 3 clasps (partially obscured) plus KM with 2 clasps. Probably Imperial infantry regiment going by what can be seen of his tunic.
14: Probably Charles Kirkpatrick, Corps of Guides (no medal entitlement) - regiment styled as Hussars, special pouch belt design along with tunic style strongly suggests Corps of Guides.
15: Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure.[30]
16: Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps. [46]
17: Infantry. No medals. Indian infantry probably with Royal appellation/association as facings appear to be dark blue.
18: Infantry. No medals. Probably South Wales Borderers as appears to be a metal sphinx on a darkish (perhaps green) collar.
19: Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear).[55]
20: Probably Charles Robertson, 19^th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse). On medical leave from India since 1913, died during an operation in the UK in 1915. Still on active list so treated as a war casualty. 1910 entrant but no clear match on the 1910 picture.
21: Richard Hope Waller, 38th Dogras
22: Probably Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges in the form of Prince of Wales’s feathers with coronet over scroll. 
23: Probably Alleyn Charles Rothwell Greene, RGA (No medal entitlement).
24: Infantry? One medal – with clasp?
25: Native cavalry? – looks to be a 1910 entrant.[15]
26: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919.[1]
27: Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.[54]
28: Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. 1910 entrant. [11]
29: Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles [44]
30: Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment [45]
31: Native Cavalry?
32: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)?
33: Possibly 48th Pioneers
34: Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster [49]
35: Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp [32]
36: Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)? One of the 1910 entrants.[19]
37: Very likely to be the 14th (King George’s Own) Ferozepore Sikhs
38: Probably Frank Etheridge, 7th Rajputs
39: Claud Hamilton Griffith Black, 34th Horse
40: Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs [31]
41: Possibly Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 entrants.  Subsequently 2nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18th November 1916 while attached 7th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. However uniform differences with the 27^th Light Cavalry Officer on the Saugor Cavalry School picture.[9]
42: Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal [27]
43: Probably John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles based on the 1910-11 picture. Previous comment -  This might be 1st Prince of Wales’s Own Gurkha Rifles.  Another possibility is a 130th King George's Own Baluchis that also featured PoW feathers.  The former seems closer but the scroll under the badge doesn’t chime. [33]
44: Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA [26]
45: Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs [17]
46: Probably Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery [52]
47: Possibly 32nd or 34th Sikh Pioneers – looks to be a 1910 entrant. [14]
48: Probably Francis Harvey Stapleton, Ox & Buck Light Infantry. Two medals. Identified from his Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry uniform, although clasps on QSA and KSA don’t tally to the totals shown in the relevant Army List.
49: Probably Bertie Drew Fisher, 17th Lancers
50: Probably Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles (College Staff). [41]
51: Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR [42]
52: Probably George de Symons Barrow, 4th Cavalry
53: Probably Col John Emerson Wharton Headlam DSO
54: College Commandant Walter Pipon Braithwaite.
55: Douglas Haig
56: Henry Dowrish Drake, RM Artillery, (College Staff) [38]
57: Theodore Fraser, RE (College Staff) [37]
58: Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff). [40]
59: Possibly Maj Gilbert Robert Cassells, 35th Sikhs. This officer appears to be wearing the Egyptian Medal & India Medal+3 clasps (that fits for him) as well as one other medal. 
60: College Staff?

Outstanding

College Staff

Possible -  Captain Robert Alexander Chambers, Indian Medical Service.

Students

1910 Intake

John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse)
John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis (possible match on the 1910 picture [53]).
Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras
Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers
Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the 1911 Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.Possible match on the 1910 picture [50].

1911 Intake

Maj Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.
James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans  (No medals at the time this picture was taken)
Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers
James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs
Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis
John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.
Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs
Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs
Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4 – although that has been queried.
Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis  - Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps.
Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry -­ Image available but no obvious match    
Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers.

Of the 60 individuals present, we have a likely candidate for 43 of them.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Excellent work Peter. Following but not contributing.

Charlie

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Peter,

Ditto.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Bob Davies]

On 22/02/2023 at 23:10, PRC said:

The one additional staff member I could identify was in the July 1910 Indian Army List and was Major Colin Lawrence MacNab, Royal Sussex Regiment. As a Brigadier General he would die in the UK on the 13th October 1918. I don't think there is a match for him on the 1910 picture.

Picture source:-

Undated and looks like a staff officer - Lives of the First World War https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/2855477

To add a little to this man Peter et al. It seems as he was Commandant at the school of Musketry Pashmarhi 1915. Picture courtesy of ancestry and details from Fold 3. Is he our officer number 60 Haig picture?

Edited 5 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Is he our officer number 60 Haig picture?

From what has been posted previously Major Colin Lawrence MacNab was a professor at the Indian Staff College on the July 1910 Indian Army List, (which is how they termed  all the instructors) but had gone by the January 1911 Indian Army List. It could be his appointment was only short term - and certainly doesn't appear to be listed in your career extract sourced from Fold 3 - or whether it was part of a changing of the guard by Haig's sponsored new Commandant. I believe @mrfrank is fairly sure the visit by Haig is towards the end of 1911, in whch case MacNab shouldn't be present.

For me the question is whether he appears on the 1910 photograph. Given his rank and role you'd expect him to be sat in the same row as the Commandant - a row that runs from Officer 34 to Officer 45. But unless we have had a mis-identification we have a strong candidate for each one of those officers.

The other thing we don't know is when exactly the picture labelled 1910-1911 was taken. If it was to show the newly arrived 1910 intake then you'd expect MacNab might be present. However if effectively it is a graduation photo for the intake of 1909, then the picture might well have been taken December 1910 \ January 1911. The later the date the greater the likelihood that MacNab is not present.

So for me MacNab is not present at all.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

29 minutes ago, PRC said:

From what has been posted previously Major Colin Lawrence MacNab was a professor at the Indian Staff College on the July 1910 Indian Army List, (which is how they termed  all the instructors) but had gone by the January 1911 Indian Army List. It could be his appointment was only short term - and certainly doesn't appear to be listed in your career extract sourced from Fold 3 - or whether it was part of a changing of the guard by Haig's sponsored new Commandant. I believe @mrfrank is fairly sure the visit by Haig is towards the end of 1911, in whch case MacNab shouldn't be present.

For me the question is whether he appears on the 1910 photograph. Given his rank and role you'd expect him to be sat in the same row as the Commandant - a row that runs from Officer 34 to Officer 45. But unless we have had a mis-identification we have a strong candidate for each one of those officers.

The other thing we don't know is when exactly the picture labelled 1910-1911 was taken. If it was to show the newly arrived 1910 intake then you'd expect MacNab might be present. However if effectively it is a graduation photo for the intake of 1909, then the picture might well have been taken December 1910 \ January 1911. The later the date the greater the likelihood that MacNab is not present.

So for me MacNab is not present at all.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter. That all makes sense to me. I was going over various parts I had not fully covered before so thought to post it just incase! One for @FROGSMILE here;

 

On 04/03/2023 at 12:14, PRC said:

10: Possibly Suffolk Regiment but no one from that regiment known to be attending. Frogsmile - I know of no Indian regiment with Gibraltar castle badge, but Suffolk’s white facings were changed at turn of century, so it implies he’s been away from regimental duty for some time.

A book on the internet archive called 'Sons of John Company' 'The Indian and Pakistan Armies 1903 -91',  shows a castle badge but it does not appear until 1942, as such it is not valid in this thread or on here but I thought to share it with you all.https://archive.org/search?query=sons+of+john+company

[PRC]

Second summary of the 1910-1911 Staff College photo :-

[Numbers in square brackets are the same officer on the 1911 picture].

1: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). One of the 1910 entrants.  Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919.[26]
2: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. One of the 1910 enrolees.  He commanded the 11^th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War.[4]
3: David Graeme Ridgeway, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Staff Captain D.G. Ridgeway, 3^rd Gurkhas). 1914 Harts give us David Graeme Ridgeway, Bedford Regiment, 2^nd Bn, 3^rd Goorkha Regiment and Brigade Major. Sirkind Brigade.
4: Possibly William Marshall Fordham, 20th D.C.O. Infantry, (2 x MiC for a Lieutenant-Colonel W.M. Fordham, one as 20th Infantry and the other serving with the 20th D C O Infantry, Indian Army. He served on the North West Frontier, between 1897 and 1898, in China during the Boxer Rebellion, in 1900).
5: John Gwynne Griffith, 32nd Lancers. As Major, 32nd Lancers and staff of the 9th Cavalry Brigade, died on the 24th May 1915, aged 40, killed in action.
6: Digby Inglis Shuttleworth, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles. (MiCs for a D.F and D.J. Shuttleworth, Staff Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel)
7: Possibly Patrick Sinclair Stoney, 26^th Punjabis. (MiC as Major P.S Stoney 26^th Punjabi’s). Eligible for IGS Medal + clasp (1908 Ops in Mohmand) at the time of the photograph.
8: William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery, (MiC for a Brigadier General William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery. Landed France 14^th August 1914 as Major and G.S.O. 3, General Headquarters, 1^st Echelon).
9: Probably Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 enrolees.  Subsequently 2^nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18^th November 1916 while attached 7^th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. [41]
10. Hugh Hill, M.V.O., Royal Welsh Fusiliers.
11. Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. One of the 1910 enrolees.[28]
12. Probably Meredith Ashton Hamer, 129^th D.C.O. Ballochi’s. (MiC as Major M.A. Hamer, 129^th Baluchi Infantry, Staff and Headquarters).
13. Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiCs for Major & Staff Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 2/3^rd Gurkha Rifles and Lieutenant Colonel 12^th Indian Infantry Brigade).
14. An officer who is currently believed to be either 32^nd or 34^th Sikh Pioneers on the 1911 Picture. However we now know he is very likely to be a 1910 enrolee, which narrows things down – possibly Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121^st Pioneers needs another look.[47]
15: Native cavalry? As a 1910 enrolee that shifts the focus to John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) as a possibility.[25]
16. Probably C.M. Wagstaff, Royal Engineers (MiC - Brig. Gen Sir Cyril Mosley Wagstaff). 1909 Entrant.
17. Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs.[45]
18. Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar. As a 1910 enrolee that puts John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles and William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles. [27]
19. Infantry? One medal – with clasp(s)? As a 1910 enrolee previously unaccounted for I believe that narrows us down to John Cecil Macrae, (19^th Punjabis),  Laurence Balfour Cloete, (37th Dogras) and Edgar Claude Kensington, (130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis) – I’ll take the two unaccounted Gurkha Officers out of consideration and we have a contender for Carruthers or the Garwhal Rifles against number 18.[36]
20. James Atkinson Longridge, Supply and Transport Corps. (MiCs for Lieutenant Colonel J.A. Longridge, 43^rd Erinpura Regiment and General Headquarters Staff).
21. Probably Frederick Stewart Keen, 45th Rattray’s Sikhs. (MIC as Temporary Lieutenant-Colonel and Staff Major F.S. Keen, D.S.O., 45th Sikhs).
22. Walter Joseph Maxwell-Scott, Scottish Rifles – (MiC - Brig.Gen Walter Joseph Maxwell- Scott ex Scottish Rifles – also recorded as Major General Sir Walter J. Constable-Maxwell-Scott)
23. Ernest George Dunn, Royal Irish Rifles (MiC - Major Ernest George Dunn, Poona Division & Royal Irish Rifles.)
24. Herbert Edmund Reginald Rubens Braine, Royal Munster Fusiliers. Medal entitlement QM + 4 clasps and India GS Medal with clasp  (Mohmand 1908). 
25. Not sure there is a match for the 1911 photo. Native Cavalry. Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon, 3^rd Skinners Horse, has been suggested based on position of signature on the mount.
26. Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA [44]
27. Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal.[42]
28. Probably Oswald Arthur Gerald Fitzgerald, 18^th K.G.O. Lancers. 1909 entrant.
29. David Campbell Crombie, 23rd Cavalry (MiC for Major David Campbell Crombie, 23rd Cavalry & 28th Cavalry, Poona Division.).
30. Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure.[15]
31. Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs. One of the 1910 entrants.[40]
32. Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp [35]
33. Infantry. No medals? This might be 1st Prince of Wales’s Own Gurkha Rifles.  Another possibility is a 130th King George's Own Baluchis that also featured PoW feathers.  The former seems closer but the scroll under the badge doesn’t chime.1910 entrant.[43]
34. Michael George Dobbie Rowlandson, 38th Dogras. (MICs as Brigade Major and Brevet Lieutenant Colonel 15th Indian Infantry Brigade M.G.D. Rowlandson.)
35. Bertram Hewett Hunter Cooke, Rifle Brigade (MiC - Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, C.M.G & D.S.O. Numerous staff positions listed on MiC.) Served with the RAF from its founding.
36. Major Berkeley Vincent, 6^th Dragoons
37. Theodore Fraser, R.E. (College Staff). [57]
38. Henry Dowrish Drake, Royal Marine Artillery (College Staff) [56]
39. College Commandant Thompson Capper
40. Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff). [58]
41. Probably Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles, (College Staff). [50]
42. Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR. [51]
43. Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt.[3]
44. Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles.[29]
45. Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment.[30]
46. Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps. [16]
47. Francis Duncan Irvine, 2nd Queen's Own Sappers & Miners. [9]
48. Joseph Robert Wethered, Gloucestershire Regiment. (MiC - Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Robert Wethered, 14^th Infantry Brigade Staff Major, Captain Gloucestershire Regiment, C.M.G & D.S.O.)
49. Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster. [34]
50. William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles –The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. No obvious match on the 1911 picture.
51. Not sure there is a match for the 1911 photo. Native Infantry. (William Archibald Smail Walker has been suggested based on position of signature on the mount).
52. Probably Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery. [46]
53. Possibly John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis, a 1910 entrant but no obvious match on the 1911 photograph.
54. Gurkha ? No Medal. 1910 enrolee. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’.  However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.[27]
55. Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear).[19]

Of the 55 officers photographed we have a strong or definate candidate for 42 of them

Outstanding names

Staff

Major Colin Lawrence MacNab, Royal Sussex Regiment. On the July 1910 Indian Army List as a Professor at the College, but may have left by the time the picture was taken. Picture sources available, but no obvious match on the photograph.
Possible – Captain Dodington George Richard Shurton Baker, Indian Medical Service.

All Captains.

1909 Intake.

Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon, 3^rd Skinners Horse (MiCs for MiD Indian Army Staff Major E.C.W. Conway-Gordon, Skinners House). Lives of the First World War as Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5378211

Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias, 1^st K.G.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Major A.H.W. Elias-Wynn, 2/1^st Gurkhas serving with the RAF as Lieutenant-Colonel).Subsequently Group Captain RAF.

WAS (William Archibald Smail) Walker is in May 1910 AL as Quetta Student (specially nominated) (Mr Frank 22/02/23). 469^th Punjabis. Picture sourced but no obvious match. Eligible for the IGS Medal + 3 clasps.Defence of Malakand, Landakai and operations in Bajaur – medal with clasps, then served in Tirah. Killed in action at Myima, East Africa on the 12^th April 1915 while attached 130^th Baluchis.

1910 Intake

John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) Service from December 1914 to July 1918 seems to have been on staff of Cavalry Brigade \ Division \ Corps in France.National Army Museum hold his six medals.
Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras
Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers
Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis brigade Major 34^th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7^th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others.
John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles
Charles Robertson, 19^th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse). On 1911 picture as [20]

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you Peter. That all makes sense to me. I was going over various parts I had not fully covered before so thought to post it just incase! One for @FROGSMILE here;

 

A book on the internet archive called 'Sons of John Company' 'The Indian and Pakistan Armies 1903 -91',  shows a castle badge but it does not appear until 1942, as such it is not valid in this thread or on here but I thought to share it with you all.https://archive.org/search?query=sons+of+john+company

Thanks Bob.  Funnily enough I have had that publication for some years now and can heartily recommend it.  It didn’t seem necessary to caveat my comment with until after 1942 given the period that we were looking at.  I’ve not forgotten the castle badge though and have recently tracked down the Indian Army Dress Regulations as at 1913, which although a couple of years after our photos, will cover most of what we can see.  As soon as I have it in hand I will trawl through and look for any mention of a castle collar badge.  Yellow and White, or Buff were among the favoured facing colours of Indian infantry regiments without Royal appellation, so the prospects seem good.

Edited 6 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Second time round for most of these, although with a better quality 1910 image that might assist with identification.

Here is Officer 15 from the 1910 photograph who I believe is Officer 25 in the 1911 photograph.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

For some time in my summaries I’ve been putting him down as a possible Native Cavalry Officer. His presence in both pictures would mark him down as either 1910 intake or staff, but his position in both pictures would tend to come down on the side of being a student.

With the recent additional identifications, the only Native Cavalry Officer we have left common to both is John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse). But from all I can see online, their uniform was yellow with facings of black velvet – it was 3rd Skinners Horse that wore a blue uniform with yellow facings, although British Officers were dressed “for a regiment of horse”, (as per the Cavalry School article).

There is also Charles Robertson, 19th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse) but I believe him to be present on 1911 picture as Officer 20 but with no match identified so far in 1910.

Which leaves us with four Native Infantry Officers, for all of whom we no alternative images as yet to make a facial comparison with.

Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras

Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers

Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis

John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles

And what we have is a very distinctive pouch badge – an eight pointed star, surmounted by a crown and with possibly a scroll underneath – although if it is a scroll it appears to be a little bit orphaned from the star. I don’t however think it is a cord being attached to the pouch belt – there are two of those lower down.

This Officer in both photographs is not wearing any medals.

The only infantry unit left in that list of four officers with a Royal connection is the 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis. But nothing I could find online shows an eight pointed star in use by the Regiment either as the Prince of Wales Own or subsequently the King Georges Own.  And Prince of Wales would be feathers rather than a crown. So any thoughts on the unit?

Also, has it been confirmed that the relevant officer, Edgar Claude Kensington, had no medal entitlement at that stage of his military career?

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

Second time round for most of these, although with a better quality 1910 image that might assist with identification.

Here is Officer 15 from the 1910 photograph who I believe is Officer 25 in the 1911 photograph.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

For some time in my summaries I’ve been putting him down as a possible Native Cavalry Officer. His presence in both pictures would mark him down as either 1910 intake or staff, but his position in both pictures would tend to come down on the side of being a student.

With the recent additional identifications, the only Native Cavalry Officer we have left common to both is John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse). But from all I can see online, their uniform was yellow with facings of black velvet – it was 3rd Skinners Horse that wore a blue uniform with yellow facings, although British Officers were dressed “for a regiment of horse”, (as per the Cavalry School article).

There is also Charles Robertson, 19th Bengal Lancers (Fane’s Horse) but I believe him to be present on 1911 picture as Officer 20 but with no match identified so far in 1910.

Which leaves us with four Native Infantry Officers, for all of whom we no alternative images as yet to make a facial comparison with.

Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras

Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121st Pioneers

Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis

John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles

And what we have is a very distinctive pouch badge – an eight pointed star, surmounted by a crown and with possibly a scroll underneath – although if it is a scroll it appears to be a little bit orphaned from the star. I don’t however think it is a cord being attached to the pouch belt – there are two of those lower down.

This Officer in both photographs is not wearing any medals.

The only infantry unit left in that list of four officers with a Royal connection is the 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis. But nothing I could find online shows an eight pointed star in use by the Regiment either as the Prince of Wales Own or subsequently the King Georges Own.  And Prince of Wales would be feathers rather than a crown. So any thoughts on the unit?

Also, has it been confirmed that the relevant officer, Edgar Claude Kensington, had no medal entitlement at that stage of his military career?

Cheers,
Peter

Definitely the same man in both photos I think Peter.  He is wearing a plastron fronted tunic, so definitely a cavalry officer and either, from a lancer regiment, or a light horse, or light cavalry regiment that followed the lancer style for Type A dress.  As you’ve pointed out, the pouch belt is a key piece of evidence.  I will try to look it (the dress combination) up and report back later as I’m otherwise engaged at the moment.

NB.  Assuming the plastron isn’t reversed it would suggest red as the facing colour, which can appear very dark in orthochromatic prints.

Edited 6 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Okay Peter, having looked into this I believe your officer is from the 1st Bengal Lancers (Skinners Horse) wearing Type A dress for use when not on parade with Indian troops.  Attendance at staff college would be a typical use for this.  It was expensive to have so many uniforms though and as WW1 approached many new officers purchased just the native Type B uniform as was used for regimental review order.  What we are seeing in these photos then is the end of an era.  The officer #15 and #25 is wearing the yellow lancer tunic with black plastron and collar.  The regiment’s distinctive pouch belt, modified to add honours not long before, in 1904 confirms the identity.  I enclose images of both the Type A and Type B uniform.  In orthochromatic film the bright yellow shows dark.  I think that the plastron has been reversed (they were deliberately reversible) as was common in specific orders of dress.

NB.  3rd Bengal Lancers (Skinners Horse) had a very different pouch belt design.

 

 

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Thank you @FROGSMILE for doing so much delving – I think that nails him as John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse).

Next up is Officer 19 on the 1910 picture which I think we’re all pretty certain is Officer 36 on the 1911 photograph. Here’s an update of the side by side using the image recently provided by @mrfrank .

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Face, head, collar and single medal \ medal ribbon pattern all seem to match.

For me this thread has highlighted what a constantly changing mix there was during this period of the uniforms of the units serving in British India. With that in mind, should anything be read into the change of cuff design?

As a 1910 entrant, barring a mis-identification I believe the remaining options for a Native Infantry officer are:-

Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras

Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis  Brigade Major 34th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others. Edit 18.00 07/03 - now identified as officer 33 in 1910 and officer 43 in 1911. See later posts.

John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles

Working through those:-

From previous discussions I believe we’ve identified the Garwhal Rifles wore pouch belts .

And you’d expect the Prince of Wales feathers to feature somewhere on the uniform of an officer of the 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis.

That leaves the 37th Dogras. From what little I can find online they did not wear pouch belts, but after that I’m clueless. The British Empire site doesn’t appear to have any images.

I’ve tried looking for images of the three Captains and one Major of the 37th Dogras who died in the Great War, on the basis that they were likely to have been peacetime Regulars, but drew a complete blank.

I’ve tried a few searches of the British Newspaper Archive for Laurence Cloete but not found anything with a likely picture so far. Will give it another go when I’m next in the library but I’m not holding out much hope.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 7 March , 2023 by PRC
1) 7/3 remove Edgar Kensington from consideration

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE for doing so much delving – I think that nails him as John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse).

Next up is Officer 19 on the 1910 picture which I think we’re all pretty certain is Officer 36 on the 1911 photograph. Here’s an update of the side by side using the image recently provided by @mrfrank .

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Face, head, collar and single medal \ medal ribbon pattern all seem to match.

For me this thread has highlighted what a constantly changing mix there was during this period of the uniforms of the units serving in British India. With that in mind, should anything be read into the change of cuff design?

As a 1910 entrant, barring a mis-identification I believe the remaining options for a Native Infantry officer are:-

Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras

Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis  Brigade Major 34th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others.

John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles

Working through those:-

From previous discussions I believe we’ve identified the Garwhal Rifles wore pouch belts .

And you’d expect the Prince of Wales feathers to feature somewhere on the uniform of an officer of the 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis.

That leaves the 37th Dogras. From what little I can find online they did not wear pouch belts, but after that I’m clueless. The British Empire site doesn’t appear to have any images.

I’ve tried looking for images of the three Captains and one Major of the 37th Dogras who died in the Great War, on the basis that they were likely to have been peacetime Regulars, but drew a complete blank.

I’ve tried a few searches of the British Newspaper Archive for Laurence Cloete but not found anything with a likely picture so far. Will give it another go when I’m next in the library but I’m not holding out much hope.

Cheers,
Peter

Like you I’ve been intrigued by the change in cuff design Peter and I’m looking into it.  As things stand the 37th Dogra’s is a good call.  They were a scarlet clad Regiment (hence no pouch belt and instead a crimson silk waist sash as per standard convention for line infantry) and all three of the original Dogra Regiments (37th, 38th and 41st) had yellow facings that show dark as per Skinners.

As just a first thought concerning the cuffs, he might have transferred regiments between 1910 and 1911, or perhaps was awaiting entrance to a regiment and so was wearing the generic ‘Unattached List’ uniform prescribed, although that seems less likely.  I think that the long pointed cuff is likely to be peculiar to the Dogra regiments, but I’m still researching into it.  The image below is of a later (circa 1930s) uniform, after amalgamation, but it serves to give us a hint.

Of the two tunics below, one is a pre-1902 Connaught Rangers (note similar cuff design to 1910 photo) and the other is “Miscellaneous List” (books as background).  After 1902 the loops descending to the very edge of the cuff were discontinued.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MartH]

Just got to say Frogsmile love the bookcase in the photo and the knowledge!

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, MartH said:

Just got to say Frogsmile love the bookcase in the photo and the knowledge!

Thanks for the sentiment Mart, but although I do have a good bookcase that one’s not mine.

[FROGSMILE]

Well it gets curiouser and curiouser!  Here are the regulations for officers of scarlet clad infantry laid down in 1913.  The previous iteration was published in 1904 and unfortunately has not to my knowledge been republished.  In both cases the dress regulations are not stand-alone, but instead rendered as Volume VII (Dress) of Army Regulations India.  I suspect that the answer to our query might be in the 1904 version.

Another possible line of inquiry would be to try to track down images of officers from the other two Dogra Regiments, the 38th and 41st as apart from insignia and lunghi they dressed identically uniform wise, including with the same yellow facings.

The scarlet tunic above with bookcase as background is as per the 1913 specification, which appears identical to that of the Imperial regiments.

NB.  Looking at your side-by-side photos it looks as if the uppermost, Austrian knot had never been favoured by the regiment, and the lower knot was abandoned in 1910, but that the elongated point continued as a feature of the Dogra’s.  Finding that the other two Dogra regiments did the same would confirm that.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Bingo!  Here is a post 1902 scarlet tunic of the 38th Dogra’s, with primrose yellow facings, gold bullion collar and cuffs, plus 8 brass buttons by Jennens & Co.  It follows the exact description as per the 1913 regulations for dress.

It seems very likely to me now that our officer was in the first, 1910 photo wearing pre 1902 tunic.  Presumably some local order might have been issued and the lower knot removed, leaving the plain pointed cuff as seen in the second, 1911 photo.  Knowing the officers record and establishing that he did not transfer in from elsewhere would corroborate the likelihood of the scenario I’ve suggested.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/03/2023 at 23:43, Bob Davies said:

Thank you Peter. That all makes sense to me. I was going over various parts I had not fully covered before so thought to post it just incase! One for @FROGSMILE here;

 

A book on the internet archive called 'Sons of John Company' 'The Indian and Pakistan Armies 1903 -91',  shows a castle badge but it does not appear until 1942, as such it is not valid in this thread or on here but I thought to share it with you all.https://archive.org/search?query=sons+of+john+company

Right Bob, as promised I’ve been looking into this and am pleased to have found the answer.  It’s not the Suffolk Regiment, although the badge was very similar indeed.  It’s the 16th Rajputs (The Lucknow Regiment) formed from those men of three Bengal Native Infantry Regiments who stayed loyal and remained with their officers and other British soldiers to defend the Lucknow Residency during the Indian Mutiny of 1857.  Their full dress was scarlet with white facings and British officers wore a collar badge on tunic and mess jacket:  “A turreted gateway” (representing Lucknow).  The same badge was worn on pagris and field caps, sometimes with the numerals 16 above.  Also on the buttons of mess jackets. 

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 It’s the 16th Rajputs (The Lucknow Regiment) formed from those men of three Bengal Native Infantry Regiments who stayed loyal and remained with their officers and other British soldiers to defend the Lucknow Residency during the Indian Mutiny of 1857.  Their full dress was scarlet with white facings and British officers wore a collar badge on tunic and mess jacket:  “A turreted gateway” (representing Lucknow).  The same badge was worn on pagris and field caps, sometimes with the numerals 16 above.  Also on the buttons of mess jackets. 

The relevant man is Officer 10 on the 1911 Photograph. He does not appear to be present on the earlier photograph, implying he was part of the 1911 intake.

Looking through the outstanding list for the 1911 intake leads us to Captain James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs, as the only possible candidate.

Cheers,
Peter