Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[Bob Davies]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It doesn’t look like the officer in the photo Bob and the General officer appears to be a little older than would work as a solution.  Also although the badge in the photo does look like a Sphinx, and the 113th were the only Indian regiment with that rare honour, I cannot be 100% certain that is what it is, the photo simply isn’t clear enough to give us anything but an outline shape.

There is a topic about him here with some more pictures. Our only other Officer is 'Lindsay'. Peter did a side by side of him further back in this topic, which I can't now find as yet.....

 

Edited 12 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think clearly the same man, so that’s another success chalked up for Peter.

I can't take the credit for that - that was all @mrfrank stepping in to rescue the situation after I led us up the garden path My slender claim to an assist is that by bringing it back to the top of the pile we were able to put a name to a face! That takes us to 52 out of 60.

32 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

There is a topic about him here with some more pictures. Our only other Officer is 'Lindsay'. Peter did a side by side of him further back in this topic, which I can't now find as yet.....

Reading the obituary on Lieutenant General Sir Louis Vaughan he was only with the 113th Infantry from July 1907 to the start of 1908 when he returned to the UK to enter the staff college, going back out to India for a Staff appointment in June 1910.

The piece says he ended his regimental career when he left for the UK, so even if there was to be a Camberley Staff College picture covering that entry in 1908, graduate in 1910 cohort, there is no guarantee that his dress uniform would be that of the 113th Infantry unfortunately.

The problem with Lindsay is that his unit on entry and graduation is given as 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles)  - and of the 8 faces still to be named, none of them appear to be Gurkha officers. I suspect therefore that he is not present on the photograph. The trouble is that with some of the other names being potentially absent as well, our remaining pool of names may be down to 5 or 6. That adds to the problem of identification if two or three individuals are present that so far we don't even have a name for.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

@FROGSMILE

I know these are low resolution pictures we are working with, but do you thinks its possible that rather than collar badges on Officer 18 being the Sphinx of the 113th Infantry, they are actually the Elephant, Crown and Dragon of the 62nd Punjabis?

The National Army Museum have a 62nd Punjabis officers collar badge , but their example is dated to 1920. I don't know when the Regiment adopted this pattern.https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=2013-10-20-27-16

If Officer 18 is from the 62nd Punjabis then that brings up Captain Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill as a potential match. Captain Underhill was originally believed to have qualified for the African General Service medal with clasp for Aden 1903-4 by @mrfrank, however that was queried by another of the posters who had him as present but not fulfilling the criteria. That query was never resolved as far as I'm aware, but as Officer 18 isn't wearing any medals that would be very material to the identification.

The Wikipedia page for the 62nd Punjabis has a picture of the (British) officers of the 62nd Punjabis after their deployment to Ismailia, Egypt in 1914. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/62nd_Punjabis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/62nd_Punjabis#/media/File:62nd_Punjabis,_Ismailia,_Egypt,_1914.jpg

Here is a side by side comparison with the man identified on the second link as Captain Underhill. Low quality but not spotting any medal ribbons on the 1914 image.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[tankengine888]

29 minutes ago, PRC said:

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

This thread has made me wonder.. How many men without evident photos could been seen in say, a group photograph, like a ships farewell photo with the troops all along the side.. think of how many men would be seen along the sides..

 

Anyways, I feel the collar is definitely the 62nd Punjabis.. you can see the gap between the elephant and lion dragon


That officer in the 1914 photograph certainly looks like that officer in the Quetta photograph.. 

 

Zidane.

 

Edited 12 March , 2023 by tankengine888
Dragon, not lion

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Here is a side by side comparison with the man identified on the second link as Captain Underhill. Low quality but not spotting any medal ribbons on the 1914 image.

I would say you have him there Peter. A great bit of thinking, well done!

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

@FROGSMILE

I know these are low resolution pictures we are working with, but do you thinks its possible that rather than collar badges on Officer 18 being the Sphinx of the 113th Infantry, they are actually the Elephant, Crown and Dragon of the 62nd Punjabis?

The National Army Museum have a 62nd Punjabis officers collar badge , but their example is dated to 1920. I don't know when the Regiment adopted this pattern.https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=2013-10-20-27-16

If Officer 18 is from the 62nd Punjabis then that brings up Captain Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill as a potential match. Captain Underhill was originally believed to have qualified for the African General Service medal with clasp for Aden 1903-4 by @mrfrank, however that was queried by another of the posters who had him as present but not fulfilling the criteria. That query was never resolved as far as I'm aware, but as Officer 18 isn't wearing any medals that would be very material to the identification.

The Wikipedia page for the 62nd Punjabis has a picture of the (British) officers of the 62nd Punjabis after their deployment to Ismailia, Egypt in 1914. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/62nd_Punjabis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/62nd_Punjabis#/media/File:62nd_Punjabis,_Ismailia,_Egypt,_1914.jpg

Here is a side by side comparison with the man identified on the second link as Captain Underhill. Low quality but not spotting any medal ribbons on the 1914 image.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

“By jove I think he’s got it”!  Well done Peter the 62nd Punjabis it is, no wonder that pesky Sphinx with its central head was troublesome!  I’m also convinced the officer in khaki and pagri is our officer #18 in the 1911 Quetta photo.

For 62nd Punjabis: “on collar of tunic and lapel of mess jacket . - the elephant, in silver, preceding the golden dragon wearing an Imperial crown.  The whole surmounted by a Tudor crown.  The whole in silver.”

This was the regiment of General Claude Auchinleck, who would’ve been a contemporary.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

I can't take the credit for that - that was all @mrfrank stepping in to rescue the situation after I led us up the garden path My slender claim to an assist is that by bringing it back to the top of the pile we were able to put a name to a face! That takes us to 52 out of 60.

Reading the obituary on Lieutenant General Sir Louis Vaughan he was only with the 113th Infantry from July 1907 to the start of 1908 when he returned to the UK to enter the staff college, going back out to India for a Staff appointment in June 1910.

The piece says he ended his regimental career when he left for the UK, so even if there was to be a Camberley Staff College picture covering that entry in 1908, graduate in 1910 cohort, there is no guarantee that his dress uniform would be that of the 113th Infantry unfortunately.

The problem with Lindsay is that his unit on entry and graduation is given as 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles)  - and of the 8 faces still to be named, none of them appear to be Gurkha officers. I suspect therefore that he is not present on the photograph. The trouble is that with some of the other names being potentially absent as well, our remaining pool of names may be down to 5 or 6. That adds to the problem of identification if two or three individuals are present that so far we don't even have a name for.

Cheers,
Peter

A joint effort then Peter.  Commendable nonetheless!

The Gurkha Regiments had all been taken out of the line, numbered separately and put into Rifle Green as a unifying feature (some had previously been scarlet clad), so you’re absolutely right that if none of the remaining officers are in frogged, green tunics, then none are from Gurkha units.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

Here is Major Henry Charles Swinburne Ward. 2nd Lancers your number 31 @mrfrank. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205390336

Edited 12 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Here is Major Henry Charles Swinburne Ward. 2nd Lancers your number 31 @mrfrank. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205390336

Well found Bob.  The likeness is clear.

[Bob Davies]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Well found Bob.  The likeness is clear.

He was hiding in plain sight FROGSMILE I had been all over looking for Bengal lancers/cavalry etc and then I typed in 'Major' before his name on the IWM site and lo, there he was!

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Here is Major Henry Charles Swinburne Ward. 2nd Lancers your number 31

Great find

Just in case anyone needs it as confirmation.

I have to admit that due to a 1912 Wills Cigarette card and what may prove to be a faulty identification by the author in the Saugor Cavalry school picture, (see below), I'd given up on thinking Officer 31 was 2nd Lancers.

In my head Captain Ward was beginning to look like a no show, leaving Officer 31 as real head scratcher as we had no alternative waiting in the wings.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

38 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I had been all over looking for Bengal lancers/cavalry etc and then I typed in 'Major' before his name on the IWM site

So often that's all it takes - one small change in the search and suddenly all is revealed

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 12 March , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

On 12/03/2023 at 18:41, PRC said:

Great find

Just in case anyone needs it as confirmation.

I have to admit that due to a 1912 Wills Cigarette card and what may prove to be a faulty identification by the author in the Saugor Cavalry school picture, (see below), I'd given up on thinking Officer 31 was 2nd Lancers.

In my head Captain Ward was beginning to look like a no show, leaving Officer 31 as real head scratcher as we had no alternative waiting in the wings.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

So often that's all it takes - one small change in the search and suddenly all is revealed

Cheers,
Peter

Here is a colour rendition of the British Officers Type B uniform Peter, although the pouch belt has been very misunderstood by the artist, and the painting made two decades later.

“The belt was laced with gold in a herringbone train pattern with a pale blue central silk stripe. Silver chains and pickers were placed on the front and silver buckle, tip and slide worn on the back, just above the pouch. All the silver pieces are hallmarked in this example, for Jennens & Co, Birmingham 1902/03. The belt itself is on dark blue Morocco leather but tailor’s book instructions mention that the leather should be on pale blue Morocco. This style of belt was worn initially with an embroidered pale blue pouch but in 1890 the regiment were permitted to change their title from Bengal Cavalry to Bengal Lancers, and from then on wore a silver fronted pouch. It was worn by both British and Indian officers.”

NB.  A key point is that he appears to be wearing an undress or perhaps later ‘kurta’, as the full dress version of our period was much more heavily decorated with lace on cuffs and front.  See B&W and colour images lowermost below.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Great find

Just in case anyone needs it as confirmation.

Thanks Peter. I too could not find any thing like what we have on the Staff College photo, all variations but nothing to confirm his unit as 2nd Lancers. A thank you to @FROGSMILE for your latest explanations regarding his uniform. Now, next Officer I am looking for is 'McWatters'. The attached picture courtesy IWM shows us a contemporary Officer also of the 24th Punjabs. It may help? Cheers, Bob.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

A bit of research on 'Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers' gives us a book free to view. He is named in it, the search option helps. However I have not read it yet. If it helps someone else identify our Officer work away please. Cheers Bob. Courtesy Internet Archive. Linkhttps://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.211243/mode/2up; An interesting story here;

[PRC]

Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs.

The War Service-Active List entry for him in Hart’s Army List for 1914 simply records that he served in China, 1900 – Medal. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100756723

I couldn’t find any pictures of him or any collectively of the British Officers of the Regiment that had them in the parade dress uniforms that Walter would have been wearing for the Quetta Staff college photograph. There are lots of other images but this is for a uniform match so they don’t help.

I then tried researching the likely officer establishment of the period by cross-referencing the CWGC database with the Harts Annual Army list for 1910: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100776725
and the October 1914 Indian Army List: https://www.researchingww1.co.uk/36th-sikhs

Incidentally Harts gives us “Uniform Scarlet, Facings Yellow.”

The hope was that a picture of one or more of those individuals would provide a guide as to how Walter might appear.

36^th Sikhs.

Lieutenant Colonel Edward Langford Sullivan, (Major, Harts 1910), Commandant since 05/05/10 (Oct 14 IAL)

Lieutenant Colonel Harry Alexander Moore, (Major, Harts 1910), 2^nd in Command since 05/05/10 (Oct 14 IAL)

Major Reginald George Munn, (Harts 1910), with Regiment since 26/02/01, Major since 23/03/07 (Oct 14 IAL)

Major Ernest Francis Knox, (Harts 1910) with Regiment since 14/08/03, Major since 29/11/08 (Oct 14 IAL)

Major De Courcy Ireland, (Captain, Harts 1910), with Regiment since 05/05/10, Major since 17/12/10 (Oct 14 IAL); Died 28/01/15 (CWGC).

Captain Charles Ross Lyall, (Harts 1910), with Regiment since 19/04/01, Captain since 20/01/09 (Oct 14 IAL).

Captain Geoffrey Leigh Blair, (Harts 1910), with Regiment since 26/04/01, Captain since 28/07/09 (Oct 14 IAL); died UK as a Major  07/08/19, (CWGC).

Captain William Hamilton Padday, with Regiment since  10/10/03, Captain since 20/11/11 (Oct 14 IAL); attached 47^th Sikhs died  21/12/14 (CWGC) – most likely kia. Photograph in dress uniform in the edition of Illustrated London News January 9 1915. https://archive.org/details/sim_illustrated-london-news_1915-01-09_146_3951/page/40/mode/2up?q=Padday&view=theater

Captain Henry Lawrence Haughton, (Harts 1910),  with the Regiment since 18/01/04, Captain since 27/08/11 (Oct 14 IAL). His book “Sport & Folklore in the Himalaya” was published in 1913, but while it’s great stuff doesn’t appear to include a picture of the author. https://archive.org/details/cu31924023647369/mode/2up?view=theater

Captain John Gray, with the Regiment since 26/12/06, Captain since 27/08/11 (Oct 14 IAL); died  12/04/16, (CWGC), probably KiA.

Captain Macan Saunders, (Lieutenant, 1910 Harts), with the Regiment since 12/11/07, Captain since 23/12/12 (Oct 14 IAL)

Captain John Basil Whitmore Hay, (Lieutenant, 1910 Harts),with the Regiment since 26/12/06, Captain since 13/08/13 (Oct 14 IAL)

Captain Arthur Derisley Martin, with the Regiment since 14/02/07, Captain since 05/08/14 (Oct 14 IAL); died attached 47^th Sikhs 17/04/16 (CWGC). KiA – although source says 18/04/16. “he was killed during the battle of Beit Eissa, near Kut, whilst attempting to rally a group of broken troops on the right of his company.” https://dulwichcollege1914-18.co.uk/fallen/martin-ad/

Lieutenant Seymour Des Voeux (Harts 1910), with the regiment since 26/11/08, Lieutenant since 17/11/09 (Oct 14 IAL); Captain when he died 01/02/17 (CWGC)

Lieutenant Dudley Clare Robinson, (LG Promotion to Lieutenant Paged 4387 18 June 1912), commissioned 29/01/10, with the regiment since 19/05/11, Lieutenant from 29/04/12 (Oct 14 IAL)

Lieutenant Edward Henry Ommanney Elkington, (MC award LG Supp 22/12/16 & others),  commissioned 03/09/10, with the regiment since 27/11/11. Lieutenant since 03/12/12 (Oct 14 IAL)

Brevet Colonel Charles Edward Johnson, Commandant since 05/05/03, (Harts 1910).

Captain Henry Robert Evelyn Pratt, DSO, Captain since 14/08/04, (Harts 1910)

Captain Robert William MacDonald, Captain since 28/07/09, (Harts 1910)

Lieutenant Charles de Lona Christopher, Lieutenant since 09/04/06, (Harts 1910)

Lieutenant Robert Frank Clothier, Lieutenant since 09/04/06. (Harts 1910) Killed in action on the 2^nd November 1914 in German East Africa was then Captain and Adjutant 13^th Rajputs. There is a picture but I don’t know with which regiment it is with. He was promoted Captain in January 1913 but there is not enough showing in the image to work out if he is a Captain or a Lieutenant https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205292345

Note the unit is not in the scope of Soldiers Died in the Great War.

Which leaves us with potentially two useful images to do a uniform comparison, although I cannot guarantee that either man was photographed in the dress uniform of the 36^th Sikhs rather than another regiment.

Could these two men be serving with the same regiment?

 

And if the answer to that is “yes”, do you think this man also served with the same regiment?

 

Bonus question  - is he wearing a 1900 China medal?

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

With regards to first question concerning comparing uniforms Peter unfortunately without visibility of a collar badge or regimental button we’re left with a common pattern of scarlet tunic with white, or some other pale colour of facings.  Also certain ethnic and religious martial groups tended to wear the same with only their insignia different.

The medal does have the right ribbon style but I’m unsure how the colouration would appear.

 

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

The attached picture courtesy IWM shows us a contemporary Officer also of the 24th Punjabs. It may help? Cheers, Bob.

Whoever has constructed the timeline has just one reference to Geoffrey Willoughby Atkins serving with the 24th Punjabis and that is for a Military Cross award in 1916. It quotes as its source the Supplement to the London Gazette 2 February 1916 page 1337.  It's tagged on to the end as an undated entry which to my mind is always suspicious.

In fact that London Gazette page shows him as 25th Punjabis attached Northumberland Fusiliers (Service Battalion) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29460/supplement/1337/data.pdf

The same Lives of the First World War timeline shows another entry as well for the MC award, linked to the 2nd February 1916 and giving the same London Gazette reference, but without mentioning a unit.
The same date of the 2nd February 1916 is then given an entry showing him as attached to the 8th Service Battalion, Norfthumberland Fusiliers and gives the source as the History of the 1st Battalion 15th Punjab Regiment, by J E Shearer, 1937. I believe this was the successor unit to the 25th Punjabis and one which Geoffrey Willoughby Atkins would go on to command. One delightful tidbit - he married Lilian Hull, otherwise Baroness Miska Staminoff  - I wonder which way she changed her name
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5456006

But nothing about him serving with the 24th Punjabis that stands up to any kind of scrutiny.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

44 minutes ago, PRC said:

Could these two men be serving with the same regiment?

They certainly look very similar Peter. Very similar. I believe that @FROGSMILE does have a valid point in what he says.....below here.

 

42 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

unfortunately without visibility of a collar badge or regimental button were left with a common pattern of scarlet tunic with white or some other pale colour of facings.

The bonus question, yes it could well be 1900 China medal. I am uneducated in the understanding of colours seen on black and white photos. Must educate myself on that. How high is a high collar? No mustache on our Staff College photo, if he is age 30 or so maybe he cannot grow one? Do Kings Regs apply here? Lack of 'tache will narrow a later age search down?

[Bob Davies]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

But nothing about him serving with the 24th Punjabis that stands up to any kind of scrutiny.

Cheers,
Peter

A lesson learnt there by me, thanks Peter. Standard issue scarlet tunic man, light collar facing and is that Austrian knot on the cuff/sleeves? ...it is a pity we don't have the rest of the photo!

[FROGSMILE]

Both 24th and 25th Punjabis were designated as wearing scarlet uniforms with white facings and no collar badges.  Ergo it seems that Geoffrey Willoughby Atkins photograph shows his correct uniform at the time.

 It is indeed the small Austrian knot that we see tracing the V of his cuff that was standard for regiments wearing scarlet.  Below is a colour image that gives an idea of Review Order for a Punjabi regiment except that the cuff decoration has been much exaggerated in size, perhaps to show better its detail.

I wonder if Geoffrey Willoughby Atkins appears in the book cover below.  If so as a junior officer he would be one of those standing rearwards.

Edited 14 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The medal does have the right ribbon style but I’m unsure how the colouration would appear.

I’ve been putting off doing this as I’d hope that medals would remain a supporting piece of evidence rather than all we had to go on.

Of the six faces still to be named, only two are wearing medals – Officers 2 and 24.

 

Given their position in the Quetta College photograph I think we can safely assume they are not staff.

And of the outstanding names of students who could be present:-

William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles –The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.

·       Neither officer 2 or 24 appear to be dressed as a member of a Rifle Regiment. We have a facial match with a medium probability for Captain Little on the 1910 Staff College photograph and he bears no resemblance to Officer 2 or 24.

Major Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – The 1914 Harts Annual Army List has “Served on the N.W. Frontier of India 1897-8 – Took part in the operations on the Samana and in the Kurram Valley during Aug. and Sept. 97. Medal with 2 clasps. Served at Tirah 1897-8 – In the action of Chagru Kotal. Clasp. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100754635

·       Neither officer 2 or 24 appear to be dressed as a member of a Rifle Regiment. Neither officer 2 or 24 have multiple clasps on their medal.

Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis The 1914 Harts Annual Army List has “Served on the N.W. Frontier of India 1902. – During the operations against the Darwesh Khel Waziris.” (No mention of medal). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100754887

Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs The 1914 Harts Annual Army List has 1900 China Medal. (Linked previously).

Other men identified previously as entitled to the China medal are:-

Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). (1910 Officer 1, 1911 Officer 26)
William Marshall Fordham, 20th D.C.O. Infantry, (2 x MiC for a Lieutenant-Colonel W.M. Fordham, one as 20th Infantry and the other serving with the 20th D C O Infantry, Indian Army. He served on the North West Frontier, between 1897 and 1898, in China during the Boxer Rebellion, in 1900).(1910 Officer 4 – medal ribbons obscured by pouch belt)
George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal. (1910 Officer 27, 1911 Officer 42).
Frank Eustice George Talbot, 14th Sikhs. Entitled to the China 1900 medal and clearly visible in the photo as well as 14th Sikhs collar badges. (1911 Officer 22).

Here’s how they appear cropped from the two Staff College photographs.

So possibly additional information that steers towards Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs being Officer 2.

Other men identified previously as entitled to the India General Service medal are:-

William Marshall Fordham, 20th D.C.O. Infantry, (2 x MiC for a Lieutenant-Colonel W.M. Fordham, one as 20th Infantry and the other serving with the 20th D C O Infantry, Indian Army. He served on the North West Frontier, between 1897 and 1898, in China during the Boxer Rebellion, in 1900).(1910 Officer 4 – medal ribbons obscured by pouch belt)
Patrick Sinclair Stoney, 26^th Punjabis. (MiC as Major P.S Stoney 26^th Punjabi’s). Eligible for IGS Medal + clasp (1908 Ops in Mohmand) (1910 Officer 7 – medal ribbons obscured by pouch belt)
Herbert Edmund Reginald Rubens Braine, Royal Munster Fusiliers. Medal entitlement QM + 4 clasps and India GS Medal with clasp (Mohmand 1908). (1910 Officer 24).
Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp. (1910 Officer 32, 1911 Officer 35 – medal ribbons obscured by pouch belt).
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles –The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp.(1910 Officer 50).
William Archibald Smail Walker. 46^th Punjabis. Eligible for the IGS Medal + 3 clasps.Defence of Malakand, Landakai and operations in Bajaur – medal with clasps, then served in Tirah.(1910 Officer 51 – medal ribbons obscured by pouch belt).

A very limited selection and throws up a query over the identification of William Campbell Little – the medal for that officer appears more comparable with the Queens South Africa medal worn by Officer 24 from the 1910 photograph, Captain Herbert Edmund Reginald Rubens Braine, Royal Munster Fusiliers.

 

I therefore took at look at some of the others on the 1911 Photograph who were wearing medals but whose medal entitlement had not been explored.

Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs, [1910 Officer 31, 1911 Officer 40], wearing two medals.But his entry in the 1914 Army Lists shows both are for service in Africa. “Took part in the operations in Sierra Leone, 1898-9 – Medal with clasp. Served in East Africa 1904. – Took part in the operations in Somaliland. In action at Jidballi. Medals with a clasp. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100754215

So not sure if that gets us any closer to identifying officer 24 other than to say it is likely he probably has the same medal entitlement as Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis and that the identification of William Campbell Little as Officer 50 in the 1910 photograph may need to be revisited.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

Hello Peter. As you’re looking at the medals - and for what it’s worth - I’ve just gone back to some notes I made when I was looking at the various medal entitlements and combinations. 
I had #2 as wearing the China 1900 medal in the photo and WE Wilson-Johnston as the likely candidate.

I also had #24 as wearing the IGSM with one clasp and have written him down as likely to be HC McWatters. I’ve just re-checked my 1915 Quarterly AL and he does indeed have the IGSM with clasp for NW Frontier of India, 1908 ‘operations in the Mohmand country. Engagement of Kargha’. 
 

 

Edited 13 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Both 24th and 25th Punjabis were designated as wearing scarlet uniforms with white facings and no collar badges.  Ergo it seems that Geoffrey Willoughby Atkins photograph shows his correct uniform at the time.

 It is indeed the small Austrian knot that we see tracing the V of his cuff that was standard for regiments wearing scarlet.  Below is a colour image that gives and idea of Review Order for a Punjabi regiment except that the cuff decoration has been much exaggerated in size, perhaps to show better its detail.

I wonder if Geoffrey Willoughby Atkins appears in the book cover below.  If so as a junior officer he would be one of those standing rearwards.

Thank you FROGSMILE. There is a lot to learn on this topic alone, one more that I see is the Sam Browne belts, being worn with both braces, your picture of the book cover 24th Punjabis, and also in the great war.  'Digby Inglis Shuttleworth'  for example, some pages back. I searched the Forum and there are quite a few topics explaining this courtesy of yourself and others.  With thanks to all for tunics, coats, frocks, jackets and all!

[PRC]

Of the unmatched faces on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, officer 33 has previously been indicated to be possibly 48th Pioneers.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

The only outstanding Pioneer, barring a mis-identification, that we currently have on the 1911 intake is Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers.

According to Lives of the First World War, his MiC shows he ended the conflict at the Lieutenant Colonel 2/107^th Pioneers. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1055894

Harts Annual Army List for 1910 gives us:-

12^th Pioneers (The Kelat-i-Ghilzie Regiment). Uniform Scarlet, Facings Black.
48^th Pioneers. Uniform Scarlet, Facings Black.

So presumably there is something else to distinguish their British Officers.

On 12/03/2023 at 21:03, Bob Davies said:

A bit of research on 'Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers' gives us a book free to view. He is named in it, the search option helps. However I have not read it yet. If it helps someone else identify our Officer work away please. Cheers Bob. Courtesy Internet Archive. Linkhttps://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.211243/mode/2up; An interesting story here;

That archive org snapshot shows him to have been a Captain with the Naval Brigade who was interned in Holland, and who subsequently escaped. There do not appear to be any pictures of him in the book, named or unnamed.

There are no obvious Royal Navy, Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve or Royal Naval Division Officer Records for him.

There are no obvious records regarding his internment held by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

His name appears among the escapees on this old Great War Forum thread. Although it doesn’t say how, the specific reply is about a named Naval Officer who also made his escape disguised as a woman. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/256348-royal-naval-division-officer-internees-holland-1914/page/2/

There are over 1500 pictures of men of the Naval Brigade who were interned in Holland near Groningen, having marched across the border to avoid surrendering to the Germans. Captain Cunningham unfortunately is not amongst those photographed.  The officers of the Naval Brigade initially gave their parole and were allowed to live outside the camp, which may explain the lack of a photograph if he was amongst those who escaped in the spring of 1915.
https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mistart=4&mivast=0&mizig=236&miadt=184&miaet=54&micode=63_170&milang=nl&misort=last_mod%7Cdesc&miview=ldt

I then tried to look for pictures  of the other officers of the 12^th Pioneers to see if I could find any in dress uniform.

12^th Pioneers 1914 Officer List

Major William Kenneth Hamilton Campbell
Captain Robert John Cuming
Captain William Hastings La Touche Darley
Captain Joseph Symonds Hooker
Captain John H. Goodwyn Marriott
Captain George Clarke Denton
Captain Harry Cuthbert Pulley
Captain Gerald Anderson Clarke
Captain William Ingoldsby Justice Massy
Captain Reginald Baron Boyce
Captain Stewart George Cromartie Murray
Lieutenant Thomas Mervyn Osborne Catterson-Smith
Lieutenant Alexander Kilgour Macpherson

But I couldn’t find any pre-war pictures of them in dress uniform – in fact I hardly found any images at all.

So we are left with identifying him by a process of elimination, which is not the strongest of grounds on which to base an identification.

The 1914 Harts Annual Army List does not have a War Service entry for him. That would tie up with the lack of medals on display.

So for me a “maybe” and not anything more.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, PRC said:

Of the unmatched faces on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, officer 33 has previously been indicated to be possibly 48th Pioneers.

 

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

The only outstanding Pioneer, barring a mis-identification, that we currently have on the 1911 intake is Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers.

 

According to Lives of the First World War, his MiC shows he ended the conflict at the Lieutenant Colonel 2/107^th Pioneers. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1055894

 

Harts Annual Army List for 1910 gives us:-

 

12^th Pioneers (The Kelat-i-Ghilzie Regiment). Uniform Scarlet, Facings Black.
48^th Pioneers. Uniform Scarlet, Facings Black.

So presumably there is something else to distinguish their British Officers.

 

That archive org snapshot shows him to have been a Captain with the Naval Brigade who was interned in Holland, and who subsequently escaped. There do not appear to be any pictures of him in the book, named or unnamed.

 

There are no obvious Royal Navy, Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve or Royal Naval Division Officer Records for him.

 

There are no obvious records regarding his internment held by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

 

His name appears among the escapees on this old Great War Forum thread. Although it doesn’t say how, the specific reply is about a named Naval Officer who also made his escape disguised as a woman. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/256348-royal-naval-division-officer-internees-holland-1914/page/2/

There are over 1500 pictures of men of the Naval Brigade who were interned in Holland near Groningen, having marched across the border to avoid surrendering to the Germans. Captain Cunningham unfortunately is not amongst those photographed.  The officers of the Naval Brigade initially gave their parole and were allowed to live outside the camp, which may explain the lack of a photograph if he was amongst those who escaped in the spring of 1915.
https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mistart=4&mivast=0&mizig=236&miadt=184&miaet=54&micode=63_170&milang=nl&misort=last_mod%7Cdesc&miview=ldt

 

I then tried to look for pictures  of the other officers of the 12^th Pioneers to see if I could find any in dress uniform.

 

12^th Pioneers 1914 Officer List

 

Major William Kenneth Hamilton Campbell
Captain Robert John Cuming
Captain William Hastings La Touche Darley
Captain Joseph Symonds Hooker
Captain John H. Goodwyn Marriott
Captain George Clarke Denton
Captain Harry Cuthbert Pulley
Captain Gerald Anderson Clarke
Captain William Ingoldsby Justice Massy
Captain Reginald Baron Boyce
Captain Stewart George Cromartie Murray
Lieutenant Thomas Mervyn Osborne Catterson-Smith
Lieutenant Alexander Kilgour Macpherson

 

But I couldn’t find any pre-war pictures of them in dress uniform – in fact I hardly found any images at all.

 

So we are left with identifying him by a process of elimination, which is not the strongest of grounds on which to base an identification.

 

The 1914 Harts Annual Army List does not have a War Service entry for him. That would tie up with the lack of medals on display.

 

So for me a “maybe” and not anything more.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

Excellent deductions Peter that at least give us some clues to work with.

Although scarlet with black facings is common to both pioneer regiments concerned the 12th is not listed as favouring any collar badges, although we know that sometimes field cap badges (traditionally small) were sometimes used by regiments unofficially.  However, the 12th (by far the more senior) had an unusually complex badge that did not lend itself to collars.  It’s shown below as a line drawing.

Conversely the 48th Pioneers are listed as wearing crossed silver axes as a collar badge on both, tunic collar and mess dress lapels.  The principal headdress badge, though, was a silver six pointed star with crossed axes superimposed (‘charged’ in badge language).  Two of their badges are shown below, one drawn and one seemingly a field cap badge.  On the button two axes crossed with 48 and crown above and as the officer in the Quetta photo clearly has something surmounting the crossed axes on this collar, as per the apparent field cap badge, then I think he is almost certainly from the 48th and not the 12th.

 

Edited 14 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE