Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[mrfrank]

That’s some detective work gentlemen! Every day is a school day…..A big thank you for your ongoing efforts. 
Mike 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

The relevant man is Officer 10 on the 1911 Photograph. He does not appear to be present on the earlier photograph, implying he was part of the 1911 intake.

Looking through the outstanding list for the 1911 intake leads us to Captain James Charles McKenna, 16th Rajputs, as the only possible candidate.

Cheers,
Peter

Fantastic stuff Peter.  At least all these different uniform features are making it a little easier for you to pin down the personalities when compared with the entirely khaki clad officers in the photo of an officer cadet battalion.

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

At least all these different uniform features are making it a little easier for you to pin down the personalities when compared with the entirely khaki clad officers in the photo of an officer cadet battalion.

A positive stroll on the maidan by comparison

Next up of the men who appear in both pictures is Officer 33 from 1910 and Officer 43 from 1911. He seems to be a Native Infantry officer.

While in theory the remaining choices are the same as the Officer 19 & 36 image I posted earlier, I think with the new updated 1910 image alongside the 1911 image, the Prince of Wales’s feathers can clearly be seen.

I now believe these images to be of Captain Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis.

The British Empire website has also provided an image of the pouch belt badge, of a design stated to date from 1906. https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/indianinfantry/130thbaluchipouch1906.htm

I’ve re-orientated that image to bring it closer to how it is shown when worn.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Looks like a match to me.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, PRC said:

A positive stroll on the maidan by comparison

Next up of the men who appear in both pictures is Officer 33 from 1910 and Officer 43 from 1911. He seems to be a Native Infantry officer.

While in theory the remaining choices are the same as the Officer 19 & 36 image I posted earlier, I think with the new updated 1910 image alongside the 1911 image, the Prince of Wales’s feathers can clearly be seen.

I now believe these images to be of Captain Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis.

The British Empire website has also provided an image of the pouch belt badge, of a design stated to date from 1906. https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/indianinfantry/130thbaluchipouch1906.htm

I’ve re-orientated that image to bring it closer to how it is shown when worn.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Looks like a match to me.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes that’s certainly a match Peter.  Here’s the pouch belt badge but without the Afghanistan honour scroll.  The POW feathers badge with scroll is for an officers spiked helmet

[FROGSMILE]

Well Peter, scouring through my newly acquired Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) of 1913, I find I have to modify what I suggested concerning our apparent Dogra Regiment officer (#19 & #36).  It seems that the absence of an Austrian knot above the cuff actually means something specific.

If an officer is struck off the cadre of a unit (as his pater familias) and appointed to one of the more arcane staff employments then he is to wear the generic uniform of “Officers of the Indian Army not on the Cadre [strength] of a Unit.”

This uniform is described as: Scarlet, Facings - Blue, Lace - Gold staff pattern.  Tunic - Cuffs pointed, with 1/2 inch lace round the top extending to 9 1/2 inches from the bottom of the cuff, and a tracing of gold Russia braid 1/4 inch below the lace.  Buttons: “Indian Army”.

Note: no mention of Austrian knot as there is for all other British officers, infantry style tunics.

Ergo this description matches perfectly the uniform of #36 circa 1911 it seems to me and moreover explains the difference from the uniform of the same man as #19 when he appears to be wearing his pre 1902 regimental uniform.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Right Bob, as promised I’ve been looking into this and am pleased to have found the answer.  It’s not the Suffolk Regiment, although the badge was very similar indeed.  It’s the 16th Rajputs (The Lucknow Regiment) formed from those men of three Bengal Native Infantry Regiments who stayed loyal and remained with their officers and other British soldiers to defend the Lucknow Residency during the Indian Mutiny of 1857.  Their full dress was scarlet with white facings and British officers wore a collar badge on tunic and mess jacket:  “A turreted gateway” (representing Lucknow).  The same badge was worn on pagris and field caps, sometimes with the numerals 16 above.  Also on the buttons of mess jackets. 

Great job FROGSMILE, thanks for taking the time to continue the search and for sharing it. Marvelous work you are doing too @PRC Peter, you nearly have them all now. 'Alexander Bertram Lindsay' was with the S W Borderers if that is of any help. I could not easily find if he had been located yet.Edit; found where I read it; 18: Infantry. No medals. Probably South Wales Borderers as appears to be a metal sphinx on a darkish (perhaps green) collar.Courtesy Fold 3.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

If an officer is struck off the cadre of a unit (as his pater familias) and appointed to one of the more arcane staff employments then he is to wear the generic uniform of “Officers of the Indian Army not on the Cadre [strength] of a Unit.”

This is described as Scarlet, Facings - Blue, Lace - Gold staff pattern.  Tunic - Cuffs pointed, with 1/2 inch lace round the top extending to 9 1/2 inches from the bottom of the cuff, and a tracing of gold Russia braid 1/4 inch below the lace.

Note: no mention of Austrian knot as there is for all other British infantry style tunics.

Ergo this description matches perfectly the uniform of #36 circa 1911 it seems to me and moreover explains the difference from the uniform of the same man as #19 when he appears to be wearing his pre 1902 regimental uniform.

So from this to this -

From what has been posted in the thread so far Captain Lawrence Balfour Cloete was still 37th Dogras on the January 1911 Indian Army List and graduated as 37th Dogras.
London Gazette references in the Great War have him with that unit as well.

I don't think we've had a break-down of his career yet, (apologies if I've missed it), so could I trouble @Bob Davies for the relevant details from Fold 3.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

So from this to this -

From what has been posted in the thread so far Captain Lawrence Balfour Cloete was still 37th Dogras on the January 1911 Indian Army List and graduated as 37th Dogras.
London Gazette references in the Great War have him with that unit as well.

I don't think we've had a break-down of his career yet, (apologies if I've missed it), so could I trouble @Bob Davies for the relevant details from Fold 3.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter.  It seems very odd.  It depends I think on if he left the 37th on completion of the staff course.  The regulation described certainly appears to match the tunic he’s wearing, and if you look back to the “regiments in scarlet” description, they all have that pesky Austrian knot above the pointed cuff. 

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

I don't think we've had a break-down of his career yet

Not a bother Peter. I believe he died in 1920, though I have to research that.Edit; https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1498835/laurence-balfour-cloete/ Courtesy Fold 3;

Edited 7 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Not a bother Peter. I believe he died in 1920, though I have to research that.  Courtesy Fold 3;

That looks to fit to me.  He appears to have been struck off the 37th’s cadre and appointed straight to the general staff as a Brigade Major on completion of his staff course.  He’s no spring chicken either, having first been placed “unattached” and awaiting a place in 1897, so he was unlikely to get battalion command it seems.

Basically he’s been passed over for regimental duty with a future only on the staff.  It was quite common and avoided gumming up the system, thereby leaving vacancies for new young thrusters coming up behind.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

50 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

'Alexander Bertram Lindsay' was with the S W Borderers if that is of any help. I could not easily find if he had been located yet.Edit; found where I read it; 18: Infantry. No medals. Probably South Wales Borderers as appears to be a metal sphinx on a darkish (perhaps green) collar.Courtesy Fold 3.

I’ve tried to do a side by side comparison with him previously, using an undated photograph from the Imperial War Museum. The associated narrative records him as retiring from service with heart trouble but when war broke out he went to work at the War Office. The picture shows him in civilian attire. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205384584

He died on the 16th September 1914, aged 41, and is remembered on the Brookwood Memorial. There are no documents attached to his CWGC webpage so I wonder if he was originally a missed commemoration. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75228195/alexander-bertram-lindsay/

It does mean there won’t be very much time between him being photographed at Quetta and the picture being taken of him in civilian clothes. It may be the angle the two shots were taken at but I’m still not overly sure they are the same man. However there is nothing in that career summary to indicate he was ever posted rather than attached to the 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles), so maybe wearing the regimental badge of the South Wales Borderers was acceptable.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I’ve tried to do a side by side comparison with him previously, using an undated photograph from the Imperial War Museum. The associated narrative records him as retiring from service with heart trouble but when war broke out he went to work at the War Office. The picture shows him in civilian attire. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205384584

He died on the 16th September 1914, aged 41, and is remembered on the Brookwood Memorial. There are no documents attached to his CWGC webpage so I wonder if he was originally a missed commemoration. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75228195/alexander-bertram-lindsay/

It does mean there won’t be very much time between him being photographed at Quetta and the picture being taken of him in civilian clothes. It may be the angle the two shots were taken at but I’m still not overly sure they are the same man. However there is nothing in that career summary to indicate he was ever posted rather than attached to the 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles), so maybe wearing the regimental badge of the South Wales Borderers was acceptable.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

I don’t think those two images show the same man Peter.

I’m also more unsure that it’s South Wales Borderers because with your close up of the individual the head on the collar badge seems a bit too central.  Note position in enclosed pictures.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t think those two images show the same man Peter.

I’m also more unsure that it’s South Wales Borderers because with your close up of the individual the head on the collar badge seems to central.  Note position in enclosed pictures.

I see where you are coming from,there is not the usual run down of his career on fold 3, that I can find. There is this however which may lead us to something, or not

Edited 7 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I see where you are coming from,there is not the usual run down of his career on fold 3, that I can find. There is this however which may lead us to something, or not

As they appear to be two different men Bob, how positive are we that the fellow in the staff college photo with as yet unconfirmed collar badges is actually Alexander Lindsay?

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

As they appear to be two different men Bob, how positive are we that the fellow in the staff college photo with as yet unconfirmed collar badges is actually Alexander Lindsay?

We are not positive of that. However we may find more about Alexander Bertram Lindsay which can tell us or show us who he is in the  staff college photo. From one of the books mentioned in my last post, which is on Internet Archive we have; https://archive.org/details/russianarmyjapan01kuro/page/n7/mode/2up

Edited 7 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

We are not positive of that. However we may find more about Alexander Bertram Lindsay which can tell us or show us who he is in the  staff college photo. From one of the books mentioned in my last post, which is on Internet Archive we have; https://archive.org/details/russianarmyjapan01kuro/page/n7/mode/2up

So he was a Gurkha officer Bob, and would therefore have worn a rifle green frogged tunic and pouch belt.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

So he was a Gurkha officer Bob, and would therefore have worn a rifle green frogged tunic and pouch belt.

Yes, that is for certain. I am sure that @PRCPeter had done a side by side with a Gurkha Officer a while back. I am looking and comparing at the moment also wondering who has the collar badges as we see:

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Yes, that is for certain. I am sure that @PRCPeter had done a side by side with a Gurkha Officer a while back. I am looking and comparing at the moment also wondering who has the collar badges as we see:

I’ll go through all the scarlet clad Indian units tomorrow and see if any of their collar badges chime.  It still looks a bit like a Sphinx, but that seemingly centrally placed head is troublesome.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ll go through all the scarlet clad Indian units tomorrow and see if any of their collar badges chime.  It still looks a bit like a Sphinx, but that seemingly centrally placed head is troublesome.

Thank you FROGSMILE, I look forward to see what you come up with. I think Peter had Lindsay compared with Officer 27 Haigh picture a lot of pages back. However medals were the problem...27: Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.[54]

[PRC]

On 07/03/2023 at 21:44, Bob Davies said:

I am sure that @PRCPeter had done a side by side with a Gurkha Officer a while back.

When we just had the Haig visit photograph I compared the known picture of Alexander Bertram Lindsay to Officer 27, and it was well received.

However when the 1910 Staff College picture became available it became obvious that officer was there as well and so must be one of the 1910 entrants - and Major Lindsay was a 1911 entrant.

@FROGSMILE commented at the time when we first compared Officer 27 from 1911 with Officer 54 from 1910 - "Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar."

By co-incidence I was just updating that side by side as I believe he is the last of the Native Infantry Officers we have outstanding from the 1910 intake - Captain John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles.

This is by nothing more than a process of elimination - if Cloete is the 37th Dogras Officer [19 & 36] and Kensington is 130th Prince of Wales's Own Baluchi's [33 & 43], and assuming there have been no mis-identifications, then Carruthers is the remaining match for a Native Infantry Officer [54 & 27] who was part of the 1910 intake.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Does the Helmet with badge that he is holding in the 1910 picture provide any mores clues as to the unit of this man?

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 9 October , 2023 by PRC
1) Typos 2) 09/10/23 Re-instate images

[Bob Davies]

19 minutes ago, PRC said:

When we just had the Haig visit photograph I compared the known picture of Alexander Bertram Lindsay to Officer 27, and it was well received.

However when the 1910 Staff College picture became available it became obvious that officer was there as well and so must be one of the 1910 entrants - and Major Lindsay was a 1911 entrant.

@FROGSMILE commented at the time when we first compared Officer 27 from 1911 with Officer 54 from 1910 - "Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar."

By co-incidence I was just updating that side by side as I believe he is the last of the Native Infantry Officers we have outstanding from the 1910 intake - Captain John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles.

This is by nothing more than a process of elimination - if Cloete is the 37th Dogras Officer [19 & 36] and Kensington is 130th Prince of Wales's Own Baluchi's [33 & 43], and assuming there have been no mis-identifications, then Carruthers is the remaining match for a Native Infantry Officer [54 & 57] who was part of the 1910 intake.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Does the Helmet with badge that he is holding in the 1910 picture provide any mores clues as to the unit of this man?

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, you are ahead of the game here and doing a marvelous job. I will continue to try and add what information I find and hopefully not be a pain in the Staff College

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE, I look forward to see what you come up with. I think Peter had Lindsay compared with Officer 27 Haigh picture a lot of pages back. However medals were the problem...27: Gurkha ? No Medal. Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar.[54]

I think those two images are indeed of the  same Officer Bob.  

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

When we just had the Haig visit photograph I compared the known picture of Alexander Bertram Lindsay to Officer 27, and it was well received.

However when the 1910 Staff College picture became available it became obvious that officer was there as well and so must be one of the 1910 entrants - and Major Lindsay was a 1911 entrant.

@FROGSMILE commented at the time when we first compared Officer 27 from 1911 with Officer 54 from 1910 - "Possibly also 9th Gurkha Rifles, who favoured a Rifle Brigade style pouch belt badge of the pattern with a ‘Guelphic crown’. However, could be Garwhal Rifle Regiment as insignia very similar."

By co-incidence I was just updating that side by side as I believe he is the last of the Native Infantry Officers we have outstanding from the 1910 intake - Captain John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles.

This is by nothing more than a process of elimination - if Cloete is the 37th Dogras Officer [19 & 36] and Kensington is 130th Prince of Wales's Own Baluchi's [33 & 43], and assuming there have been no mis-identifications, then Carruthers is the remaining match for a Native Infantry Officer [54 & 27] who was part of the 1910 intake.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Does the Helmet with badge that he is holding in the 1910 picture provide any mores clues as to the unit of this man?

Cheers,
Peter

They are certainly photos of the same officer Peter and the pouch belt looks correct.  But then most were quite similar.

The Guelphic crown had been associated with Prince Albert and Queen Victoria because it related to their German family links.  However, Edward VII wasn’t a fan and most regiments changed to his new Tudor crown around 1902-03.

It’s the star shaped helmet badge that is troublesome in this case and so far I cannot find a 39th Garwhal Rifles link with it.  The enclosed badge is the 1890s pouch belt pattern, but the officer in the photo wears its replacement.

NB.  I will check tomorrow the rifle green clad regiments and see if I can find one associated with a star.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Yes, that is for certain. I am sure that @PRCPeter had done a side by side with a Gurkha Officer a while back. I am looking and comparing at the moment also wondering who has the collar badges as we see:

As promised I’ve gone through all the “Infantry in Scarlet” in Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) and to my surprise found a single regiment that uniquely featured (and took great pride in) a Sphinx collar badge, the only Indian regiment to do so.  Dressed in scarlet with yellow facings they were the 113th Infantry Regiment.

The 113th participated in the Egyptian Expeditionary Force of 1801 when Napoleons Army was defeated at Alexandria.  This was a significant act as Sepoys traditionally did not travel by sea  for religious reasons and there was much controversy at the time.

It seems possible that as yellow shows dark the officer in the staff college photo might well be from the 113th.  Note that the head of the Sphinx appears to be placed quite centrally on this particular pattern of badge.

[PRC]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He appears to have been struck off the 37th’s cadre and appointed straight to the general staff as a Brigade Major on completion of his staff course.  He’s no spring chicken either, having first been placed “unattached” and awaiting a place in 1897, so he was unlikely to get battalion command it seems.

Basically he’s been passed over for regimental duty with a future only on the staff.  It was quite common and avoided gumming up the system, thereby leaving vacancies for new young thrusters coming up behind.

According to Wikipedia, Douglas Haig left India in December 1911 to take up the role of General Officer Commanding, Aldershot Command. So this picture pre-dates that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig

And from the admissions \ graduations notices it seems they occur around March \ April each year or even possibly earlier - (does anyone have a definative on that?).

So unfortunately what ever pattern uniform Captain Cloete was wearing in late 1911 a few months before his graduation had on the face of it nothing to do with his appointment as a Brigade Major in October 1912. I suspect it's one of those mysteries that even access to any surviving officers records might not explain - and I'm not seeing any long papers catalogued in the UK National Archive.

Frustrating, but I don't think it's significant enough to bring up the issue of whether the two pictures are of different men.

Cheers,
Peter