Photograph- Staff College Quetta 1911

[PRC]

Third summary of the 1910-1911 Staff College photo :-

[Numbers in square brackets are the same officer on the 1911 picture].

1: Probably Francis William Loveday, 75th Company, RGA (China 1900 Medal and Queen’s Medal with one clasp). One of the 1910 entrants.  Survived the war only to die of influenza in the UK in 1919.[26]
2: Probably Basil Edwin Crockett, 17th Lancers. One of the 1910 entrants.  He commanded the 11^th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment in the Great War. [4]
3: David Graeme Ridgeway, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Staff Captain D.G. Ridgeway, 3^rd Gurkhas). 1914 Harts give us David Graeme Ridgeway, Bedford Regiment, 2^nd Bn, 3^rd Goorkha Regiment and Brigade Major. Sirkind Brigade.
4: Possibly William Marshall Fordham, 20th D.C.O. Infantry, (2 x MiC for a Lieutenant-Colonel W.M. Fordham, one as 20th Infantry and the other serving with the 20th D C O Infantry, Indian Army. He served on the North West Frontier, between 1897 and 1898, in China during the Boxer Rebellion, in 1900).
5: John Gwynne Griffith, 32nd Lancers. As Major, 32nd Lancers and staff of the 9th Cavalry Brigade, died on the 24th May 1915, aged 40, killed in action.
6: Digby Inglis Shuttleworth, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles. (MiCs for a D.F and D.J. Shuttleworth, Staff Major and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel)
7: Possibly Patrick Sinclair Stoney, 26^th Punjabis. (MiC as Major P.S Stoney 26^th Punjabi’s). Eligible for IGS Medal + clasp (1908 Ops in Mohmand) at the time of the photograph.
8: William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery, (MiC for a Brigadier General William Henry Bartholomew, Royal Field Artillery. Landed France 14^th August 1914 as Major and G.S.O. 3, General Headquarters, 1^st Echelon).
9: Probably Thomas George Jameson Torrie, 27th Light Cavalry. One of the 1910 entrants.  Subsequently 2^nd Life Guards. Killed in Action 18^th November 1916 while attached 7^th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment. [41]
10. Hugh Hill, M.V.O., Royal Welsh Fusiliers.
11. Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers. One of the 1910 entrant. [28]
12. Probably Meredith Ashton Hamer, 129^th D.C.O. Ballochi’s. (MiC as Major M.A. Hamer, 129^th Baluchi Infantry, Staff and Headquarters).
13. Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 3^rd Q.A.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiCs for Major & Staff Captain Gerard Maxwell Glynton, 2/3^rd Gurkha Rifles and Lieutenant Colonel 12^th Indian Infantry Brigade).
14. Probably Arthur Charles Samuel Burdon Ellis, 121^st Pioneers. [47]
15: Probably John Arthur Muirhead, 1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse). 1910 entrant. Service from December 1914 to July 1918 seems to have been on staff of Cavalry Brigade \ Division \ Corps in France.National Army Museum hold his six medals. [25]
16. Probably Cyril Mosley Wagstaff, Royal Engineers (MiC - Brig. Gen Sir Cyril Mosley Wagstaff). 1909 Entrant.
17. Cyril Norman MacMullen, 15th Ludhiana Sikhs. [45]
18. Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias, 1^st K.G.O. Goorkha Rifles (MiC for Major A.H.W. Elias-Wynn, 2/1^st Gurkhas serving with the RAF as Lieutenant-Colonel.Subsequently Group Captain RAF).
19. Probably Laurence Balfour Cloete, 37th Dogras. 1910 entrant. [36]
20. James Atkinson Longridge, Supply and Transport Corps. (MiCs for Lieutenant Colonel J.A. Longridge, 43^rd Erinpura Regiment and General Headquarters Staff).
21. Probably Frederick Stewart Keen, 45th Rattray’s Sikhs. (MIC as Temporary Lieutenant-Colonel and Staff Major F.S. Keen, D.S.O., 45th Sikhs).
22. Walter Joseph Maxwell-Scott, Scottish Rifles – (MiC - Brig.Gen Walter Joseph Maxwell- Scott ex Scottish Rifles – also recorded as Major General Sir Walter J. Constable-Maxwell-Scott)
23. Ernest George Dunn, Royal Irish Rifles (MiC - Major Ernest George Dunn, Poona Division & Royal Irish Rifles.)
24. Herbert Edmund Reginald Rubens Braine, Royal Munster Fusiliers. Medal entitlement QM + 4 clasps and India GS Medal with clasp  (Mohmand 1908). 
25. Probably Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon, 3^rd Skinners Horse (MiCs for MiD Indian Army Staff Major E.C.W. Conway-Gordon, Skinners House). Lives of the First World War as Esme Cosmo William Conway-Gordon. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5378211
26. Possibly Walter Mervyn St George Kirke, 59th Company, RGA [44]
27. Possibly George Hutchison, 122nd Rajputana Infantry. China 1900 Medal. [42]
28. Probably Oswald Arthur Gerald Fitzgerald, 18^th K.G.O. Lancers. 1909 entrant.
29. David Campbell Crombie, 23rd Cavalry (MiC for Major David Campbell Crombie, 23rd Cavalry & 28th Cavalry, Poona Division.).
30. Probably Arthur William Hamilton May Moens, 52nd Sikhs (F.F.). Uniform is Native Infantry. Frogsmile - a regiment styled as rifles, and possibly Corps of Guides infantry, but I’m unsure. [15]
31. Harold Hereward Hughes-Hallett, 2nd North Staffs. One of the 1910 entrants. [40]
32. Harold Lewis, 37th Lancers (Baluch Horse). NW Frontier of India medal+clasp. [35]
33. Probably Edgar Claude Kensington, 130th Prince of Wales' Own Baluchis. 1910 entrant. brigade Major 34^th Infantry Brigade (05/09/14 – 24/02/15), Staff Captain Ferozepore Infantry Brigade (06/05/15 – 25/07/15), GSO3 Lahore Division, (26/07/15 – 31/08/15), Brigade Major, Ferozepore \7^th Infantry Brigade (01/09/15 – 08/02/17) plus possibly others. [43]
34. Michael George Dobbie Rowlandson, 38th Dogras. (MICs as Brigade Major and Brevet Lieutenant Colonel 15th Indian Infantry Brigade M.G.D. Rowlandson.)
35. Bertram Hewett Hunter Cooke, Rifle Brigade (MiC - Brigadier General B.H.H. Cooke, C.M.G & D.S.O. Numerous staff positions listed on MiC.) Served with the RAF from its founding.
36. Major Berkeley Vincent, 6^th Dragoons
37. Theodore Fraser, R.E. (College Staff). [57]
38. Henry Dowrish Drake, Royal Marine Artillery (College Staff) [56]
39. College Commandant Thompson Capper
40. Possibly George McKenzie Franks, Royal Artillery (College Staff). [58]
41. Probably Alexander Montagu Spears Elsmie, 56th Punjab Rifles, (College Staff). [50]
42. Matthew Percival Buckle , RWKR. [51]
43. Probably James Farquhar, 19th Battery, RFA. 1910 entrant. (Queen’s medal with 2 clasps and African General Service Medal with two clasps). Definitely RA, as evidenced by plain gold laced pouch belt. [3]
44. Henry Clare Duncan, 1st Battalion, 9th Gurkha Rifles. 1910 entrant. [29]
45. Francis John Joslin, 2nd Royal West Kent Regiment. 1910 entrant. [30]
46. Possibly Charles Richard Foster Seymour, 13th Rajputs. QM+4 clasps. 1910 entrant. [16]
47. Francis Duncan Irvine, 2nd Queen's Own Sappers & Miners. 1910 entrant. [9]
48. Joseph Robert Wethered, Gloucestershire Regiment. (MiC - Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Robert Wethered, 14^th Infantry Brigade Staff Major, Captain Gloucestershire Regiment, C.M.G & D.S.O.)
49. Gerald Farrell Boyd DSO, 2nd Leinster. 1910 entrant. [34]
50. William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles –The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. No obvious match on the 1911 picture.
51. William Archibald Smail Walker, 46^th Punjabis. Eligible for the IGS Medal + 3 clasps.Defence of Malakand, Landakai and operations in Bajaur – medal with clasps, then served in Tirah. Killed in action at Myima, East Africa on the 12^th April 1915 while attached 130^th Baluchis.
52. Probably Eric Fairweather Harrison, Royal Australian Garrison Artillery. 1910 entrant. [46]
53. Possibly John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis, a 1910 entrant but no obvious match on the 1911 photograph.
54. John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers, 1st Bn 39th Garwhal Rifles. 1910 entrant. [27]
55. Francis Hamilton Moore, 2nd Berkshire, (the bullion Chinese collar dragon is clear). 1910 entrant. [19]

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

Again, a big thank you to all involved in achieving such remarkable results following my initial post a few weeks back. 
As suggested, I shall send a digital copy to Dr Morton. I’ve previously sent him images of named RMC Company group photographs that didn’t appear to exist in their archival collection. 
 

Mike 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

You have honoured the memory of those men Peter.

As I read through those names and ponder, they positively reek of Empire and old patrician (and Norman Conquest) families that lived in large houses on parcels of land varying in size, but where in theory the first son inherited, the second entered the church, the third joined the British Army, and the fourth went to India and either, joined the Indian Army, or Civil Service** (often both by default).

I smell burnt tobacco, musty brocade curtains, old leather, and stale sweat stained uniform, and I hear people who spoke English with the cut glass of our late Queen.

**by all accounts of the entry requirements for both, he was often the brightest of them all.

Arithmatic of the Frontier.

A great and glorious thing it is
  To learn, for seven years or so,
The Lord knows what of that and this,
  Ere reckoned fit to face the foe —
The flying bullet down the Pass,
That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

Three hundred pounds per annum spent
  On making brain and body meeter
For all the murderous intent
  Comprised in "villanous saltpetre!"
And after — ask the Yusufzaies
What comes of all our 'ologies.

A scrimmage in a Border Station —
  A canter down some dark defile —
Two thousand pounds of education
  Drops to a ten-rupee jezail —
The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

No proposition Euclid wrote,
  No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
  Or ward the tulwar's downward blow
Strike hard who cares — shoot straight who can —
The odds are on the cheaper man.

One sword-knot stolen from the camp
  Will pay for all the school expenses
Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
  Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
But, being blessed with perfect sight,
Picks off our messmates left and right.

With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem,
  The troop-ships bring us one by one,
At vast expense of time and steam,
  To slay Afridis where they run.
The "captives of our bow and spear"
Are cheap — alas! as we are dear.

By Rudyard Kipling.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Again, a big thank you to all involved in achieving such remarkable results following my initial post a few weeks back. 
As suggested, I shall send a digital copy to Dr Morton. I’ve previously sent him images of named RMC Company group photographs that didn’t appear to exist in their archival collection. 
 

Mike 

 

 

That’s fantastic Mike and very generous of you.

 I would suggest one last addition to Peter’s excellent summary, and that’s to somehow mark out in some way, perhaps just using a different font colour, those who were KIA either, in WW1, in Indian frontier conflict, or in WW2.  The butcher’s bill, as it were.

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

There are still 12 names outstanding on the Haig visit photograph for which at the moment it looks like we have 13 student names and one member of staff who could possibly match.

Outstanding

College Staff

Possible -  Captain Robert Alexander Chambers, Indian Medical Service.

Students

1910 Intake

John Cecil Macrae, 19th Punjabis (possible match on the 1910 picture [53]).
William Campbell Little, 1st Bn 6th Gurkha Rifles – Picture available but no obvious match on the 1911 Quetta Staff College photograph. The 1914 Annual Army List only has him eligible for the NW Frontier of India, Waziristan , 1901-2 medal with clasp. Possible match on the 1910 picture [50].

1911 Intake

Maj Alexander Bertram Lindsay, 2nd Gurkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) – Picture available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.
James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans  (No medals at the time this picture was taken)
Cuthbert Colpoys Cunningham, 12th Pioneers
Herbert Claude McWatters, 22nd Punjabis
John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph.
Walter Edward Wilson-Johnston, 36th Sikhs
Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs
Guilford Edgar Charlton Underhill, 62nd Punjabis. Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Underhill was entitled to the African General Service medal for Aden 1903-4 – although that has been queried.
Charles McGregor Withers, 87th Punjabis  - Image available but no obvious match on the Quetta Staff College photograph. Withers was - at the time of the photograph - entitled to the African General Service medal with two clasps.
Vire Gordon Menzies, 97th Infantry -­ Image available but no obvious match    
Henry Charles Swinburne Ward, 2nd Lancers.

Will put my thinking cap on and see if there might be any easy wins in that lot to whittle it down.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

Again, a big thank you to all involved in achieving such remarkable results following my initial post a few weeks back. 
As suggested, I shall send a digital copy to Dr Morton. I’ve previously sent him images of named RMC Company group photographs that didn’t appear to exist in their archival collection. 
 

Mike 

 

 

Thank you Mike, it has been and still is an interesting journey, one that I am proud to have helped remember these men. Regards, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

16 minutes ago, PRC said:

There are still 12 names outstanding on the Haig visit photograph for which at the moment it looks like we have 13 student names and one member of staff who could possibly match.

Great work you have achieved here Peter and to all who have added a snippet, thank you. Likewise to you @FROGSMILE bringing your knowledge, experience and your huge 'Wardrobe of Uniforms' to the fore, thank you. Here is a link to some good pictures of men wearing the uniforms that we seek. Click on a picture and a description and names should appear. Have a look, something may help..or not...;http://themissingchapter.co.uk/image-portal/national-army-museum/

[FROGSMILE]

On 09/03/2023 at 19:06, Bob Davies said:

Great work you have achieved here Peter and to all who have added a snippet, thank you. Likewise to you @FROGSMILE bringing your knowledge, experience and your huge 'Wardrobe of Uniforms' to the fore, thank you. Here is a link to some good pictures of men wearing the uniforms that we seek. Click on a picture and a description and names should appear. Have a look, something may help..or not...;http://themissingchapter.co.uk/image-portal/national-army-museum/

Thanks for your generous sentiment Bob.

As per usual the NAM have not checked their presentation it seems.  The first two captions for the photos each mention the name of a British officer and yet no British officers are in the photos concerned.

I find the NAM infuriating, all self image and no substance, with usually a 20-something junior curator with no real knowledge of, or imperative to actually check the accuracy of, what it is that they are presenting.  They’re more interested nowadays in perceived relevance to the local ethnic communities of London. 

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

On 09/03/2023 at 00:45, PRC said:

Its not a show-stopper but if John Carruthers went to the Staff College in the early months of 1910 to take a two year course, graduating in the early months of 1912, why would he have been with his unit at Delhi in 1911? (That's what is written on the photograph). Was he perhaps temporarily back with them for the 1911 Durbar - was he one of the officers selected to receive the medal for example? 

One more edit here; The 1911 Delhi Durbar medal lists are at the Nat Archives. From that the 1st and 2nd Battalions 39th Garhwal Rifles were there but 'Carruthers' is not on the list. Link here;https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3764164 I did spot 'L B Cloete' 37th Dogras on the list. Edit here to add a bit. Thanks Peter for doing the 3 X side by sides, much appreciated. I am struggling to find 'John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers' on any Durbar medal/attendance  list. However there is a book,(The Historical Record of the 39th Royal Garhwal Rifles. vol i 1887-1922) also plenty about their time in the Great War in there. Some uniforms for @FROGSMILE but small and not very detailed. Free to view which gives us some dates. Death of Edward VII 1910 (black armbands mentioned very early in the thread) and Coronation of George V and his Coronation Durbar, December 1911 to January 1912. Pages 31 and 32 in the book. He is mentioned in the book, use the search facility on the left side of the book page. LINK;https://archive.org/details/dli.pahar.2170/page/n69/mode/2up

Edited 10 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

11 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

I am struggling to find 'John Harvey de Wiederhold Carruthers' on any Durbar medal/attendance  list.

My understanding is that those who had already received the 1903 Coronation Medal only received a clasp to that medal rather than a second Delhi Durbar one so his absense from the roll may be explained by that and doesn't mean he wasn't there. Interestingly Laurence Balfour Cloete, then in his second year at the Staff College, not only gets a medal but is shown as a Military Member of the Coronation Durbar Committee. Collegiate approach indeed as mentioned previously by @FROGSMILE - seems like there was plenty of time for extra-curricular activities that would also look good on a military C.V.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Staff College closed for a few weeks to allow staff and students to attend.

Thanks for checking,
Peter

[PRC]

One of the unmatched 1911 intake is Captain John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs.

His MiC shows him as Captain 35th Sikhs, Dehra Dun Brigade, Indian Army, when he landed in France on the 12^th October 1914. All of his medals were issued in India including his 1914 Star – the MiC has been raised to record that.

He was made Companion of the Bath in the Kings Birthday Honours 1929, having already received the C.B.E. He was recorded as a Lieutenant-Colonel & GSO 1, Indian Army. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/14553/page/566/data.pdf

The later years of his life are covered in a piece on the occupants of a house, Bridge Cottage, Playford, Suffolk, which includes a casual painting of him. He died in September 1944. http://www.playford.org.uk/Documents/History/Bridge_Cottage.pdf

There is a picture of John Cavendish Freeland on the Lives of the First World War website. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1253707

However I would say it is post the award of the Companion of the Bath, so he would be at least 18 years older. I posted it previously but said I couldn’t see an obvious match. Not only was a facial match not leaping out at me, but the colouring of his collar wasn’t tieing in with any of the unknowns.

But we do have another Officer of the 35^th Sikhs on the same picture, Major Gilbert Robert Cassells, identified on the basis of medals and a much older picture of him.

If we assume that identification is correct, (I’m only rating it as a possible at the moment), then in theory we should be looking for one of the unknowns whose uniform matches.

I think we have one in Officer 7.

So from left to right in this montage we have:-

Major Cassells whose uniform is that of the 35^th Sikhs;
Officer 7 whose uniform looks like that worn by Major Cassells;
The older John Cavendish Freeland for comparison to Officer 7.

According to Wikipedia the 35^th Sikhs became the 10th Training Battalion, 11^th Sikh Regiment in 1922. I tried the 1924 Indian Army List but Lieutenant-Colonel John Cavendish Freeland is not shown as attached to any regiment. So for our purpose I believe the collar colour on the last picture is irrelevant.

So the questions are:-

-        Is Officer 7 wearing the same uniform as Major Cassells?

-        Does Officer 7 look like a younger version of the known picture of John Cavendish Freeland?

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 9 October , 2023 by PRC
1) Typos 2) 09/10/23 Re-instate image

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, PRC said:

Wouldn't be surprised if the Staff College closed for a few weeks to allow staff and students to attend.

Thanks for checking,
Peter

I think that is extremely likely.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

One of the unmatched 1911 intake is Captain John Cavendish Freeland, 35th Sikhs.

His MiC shows him as Captain 35th Sikhs, Dehra Dun Brigade, Indian Army, when he landed in France on the 12^th October 1914. All of his medals were issued in India including his 1914 Star – the MiC has been raised to record that.

He was made Companion of the Bath in the Kings Birthday Honours 1929, having already received the C.B.E. He was recorded as a Lieutenant-Colonel & GSO 1, Indian Army. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/14553/page/566/data.pdf

The later years of his life are covered in a piece on the occupants of a house, Bridge Cottage, Playford, Suffolk, which includes a casual painting of him. He died in September 1944. http://www.playford.org.uk/Documents/History/Bridge_Cottage.pdf

There is a picture of John Cavendish Freeland on the Lives of the First World War website. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1253707

However I would say it is post the award of the Companion of the Bath, so he would be at least 18 years older. I posted it previously but said I couldn’t see an obvious match. Not only was a facial match not leaping out at me, but the colouring of his collar wasn’t tieing in with any of the unknowns.

But we do have another Officer of the 35^th Sikhs on the same picture, Major Gilbert Robert Cassells, identified on the basis of medals and a much older picture of him.

If we assume that identification is correct, (I’m only rating it as a possible at the moment), then in theory we should be looking for one of the unknowns whose uniform matches.

I think we have one in Officer 7.

So from left to right in this montage we have:-

Major Cassells whose uniform is that of the 35^th Sikhs;
Officer 7 whose uniform looks like that worn by Major Cassells;
The older John Cavendish Freeland for comparison to Officer 7.

According to Wikipedia the 35^th Sikhs became the 10th Training Battalion, 11^th Sikh Regiment in 1922. I tried the 1924 Indian Army List but Lieutenant-Colonel John Cavendish Freeland is not shown as attached to any regiment. So for our purpose I believe the collar colour on the last picture is irrelevant.

So the questions are:-

-        Is Officer 7 wearing the same uniform as Major Cassells?

-        Does Officer 7 look like a younger version of the known picture of John Cavendish Freeland?

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Officer #7 does almost certainly appear to be wearing the same 35th Sikh Regiment tunic as Major Cassells, which was scarlet with yellow facings and a small silver qoit as collar badge.  See CLAUDE GRAY BUCHANAN below.

I don’t think that Officer #7 look like a younger version of the known picture of John Cavendish Freeland?  Despite bearing in mind the aging and putting on weight, officer #7 has a more slender jawline (bone structure), which surely would not change. 

Edited 10 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t think that Officer #7 look like a younger version of the known picture of John Cavendish Freeland?  Although considering aging and putting on weight officer #7 has a more slender jawline (bone structure) which would not change. 

I too still have my doubts.

Hairline shape, natural parting, eyebrows shape and eyelids and positions of ears in relations to falling between mid-eye and upper lip level should mean that it's a possibility.
But ear, nose and jaw shape seems at odds even allowing for the passage of 18+ years.
Additional factors that may swing it back to being a match is that in the 1911 he is looking at the camera straight on and straight faced, whereas the later pose also brings into play the side of his head, while he looks to have a slight smile judging from the sides of his mouth which will tauten his chin and make it look broader. In the intervening period he could also have had his nose broken.

At this point we don't have another 35th Sikhs Officer in the frame, but it's still not much more than a "maybe" as an identification.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

I too still have my doubts.

Hairline shape, natural parting, eyebrows shape and eyelids and positions of ears in relations to falling between mid-eye and upper lip level should mean that it's a possibility.
But ear, nose and jaw shape seems at odds even allowing for the passage of 18+ years.
Additional factors that may swing it back to being a match is that in the 1911 he is looking at the camera straight on and straight faced, whereas the later pose also brings into play the side of his head, while he looks to have a slight smile judging from the sides of his mouth which will tauten his chin and make it look broader. In the intervening period he could also have had his nose broken.

At this point we don't have another 35th Sikhs Officer in the frame, but it's still not much more than a "maybe" as an identification.

Cheers,
Peter

I do agree that there are some facial similarities and had considered it carefully like you, but not I think sufficient, even given the passage of time.  It is indeed troublesome if no other potential solution can be found.

[PRC]

Another unmatched 1911 entrant was Captain Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs.

While there isn’t anyone else from that Regiment on this picture, there was a Captain Frederick Stewart Keen on the previous one. A positive I.D. for him came from facial comparisons from earlier, (including one dated 1901) and later in his life.

I believe the 1901 and the 1910 pictures of Frederick Keen can, between them,provide a guide to the uniform being worn by Captain McRae. There was also a picture of an unknown 45^th Rattrays Sikhs British Officer that was sourced by @FROGSMILE when we were trying to identify which officer in the 1910 picture was Frederick Keen. The uniform elements of that picture is also included for comparison and is the right hand picture in the top row.

There appear at first to be two candidates on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, officers 6 and 37.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

In the top row of 45^th Rattrays Sikhs uniform the presence of a small qoit on the collar is a constant, even though it’s harder to see in the 1901 dated picture. But although we don’t have the cuffs of Officer 6 to include in the comparison, the absense of the qoit on the collar of officer 6 leads me to come down on the side of officer 37 as a unit match for Captain MacRae.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 9 October , 2023 by PRC
1) Formatting 2) 09/10/23 Reinstate image

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Another unmatched 1911 entrant was Captain Henry St George Murray McRae, 45th Sikhs.

While there isn’t anyone else from that Regiment on this picture, there was a Captain Frederick Stewart Keen on the previous one. A positive I.D. for him came from facial comparisons from earlier, (including one dated 1901) and later in his life.

I believe the 1901 and the 1910 pictures of Frederick Keen can, between them,provide a guide to the uniform being worn by Captain McRae. There was also a picture of an unknown 45^th Rattrays Sikhs British Officer that was sourced by @FROGSMILE when we were trying to identify which officer in the 1910 picture was Frederick Keen. The uniform elements of that picture is also included for comparison and is the right hand picture in the top row.

There appear at first to be two candidates on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, officers 6 and 37.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

In the top row of 45^th Rattrays Sikhs uniform the presence of a small qoit on the collar is a constant, even though it’s harder to see in the 1901 dated picture. But although we don’t have the cuffs of Officer 6 to include in the comparison, the absense of the qoit on the collar of officer 6 leads me to come down on the side of officer 37 as a unit match for Captain MacRae.

Cheers,
Peter

It’s an interesting one Peter.  45th Rattrays Sikhs wore scarlet with white facings, and on helmet and field cap a qoit surmounted with dagger pointing up, but as at 1913 they were not described as authorised for (designated with) collar badges at all.  I’ll need some time to scour through all the other Sikh regiments just to check that it couldn’t possibly be any other unit.

The provenanced officers personal insignia below suggests collar badges were worn, and of the same pattern as used on field service caps.

The regiment’s insignia was a badge with a ‘khanda sword’ (rather than a dagger), above a chakkar quoit, used by the 45th Rattray's Sikhs.

Afternote:  the fragment of a B&W group photo below shows that collar badges were certainly worn in field dress, so it seems unconscionable that they wouldn’t be worn with full dress.  See also the collar badges of the officers centrally placed visible in the group photo of Sikh and British officers in full dress.

NB.  Also interesting to note the British officer seated crossed legs on the floor wearing the tunic decreed for: officers not on the cadre of a unit. 

Edited 10 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Walter Lloyd Sinclair Meiklejohn, 106th Hazara Pioneers has already been identified as officer 11 on the 1910 photograph and officer 28 on the 1911 Haig visit photograph. He was also one of the signatories on the mount of the 1910 picture.

However while looking for the unit of one of the outstanding names I came instead across a picture of the British and Native officers of the 106th Hazara Pioneers, stated to have been taken at Quetta in 1913. Standing in the back row, second from right is a Captain Meiklejohn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/106th_Hazara_Pioneers

As there is now also a slightly better image to work from on the 1910 photograph, here’s an updated side by side comparison.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 9 October , 2023 by PRC
1) Formatting 2) 09/10/23 Reinstate image

[Bob Davies]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

So the questions are:-

-        Is Officer 7 wearing the same uniform as Major Cassells?

-        Does Officer 7 look like a younger version of the known picture of John Cavendish Freeland?

Yes I believe Officer 7 is wearing the same uniform as Major Casssels.  Officers 7, 12 and 17 are on my list as 'Freeland'. 17s eyes and posture seem to be the poorest fit. 12 has the chin and ears to fit. The uniform of 7 does seem to fit though.

4 hours ago, PRC said:

There appear at first to be two candidates on the 1911 Haig visit photograph, officers 6 and 37.

Captain MacRae. I have to ponder this one for some time yet. 

Edited 10 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[Bob Davies]

One of these Officers I believe is V G Menzies. Trying a side by side to compare the faces. I have given  no though to the uniform or medal allotment.Top is Menzies, next down is 18, next down is 32, next down is 24. I am going for number 32. They did not work out as side by side but there we go. Peter you are the expert here with no doubt. Thanks for your work.                                                                                                                           

Edited 10 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

On 10/03/2023 at 20:48, Bob Davies said:

One of these Officers I believe is V G Menzies. Trying a side by side to compare the faces. I have given  no though to the uniform or medal allotment.

The angle I’ve been working is that “The story of the 97th Deccan Infantry” by Major W.C. Kirkwood can be accessed on Archive.org and is a source for the photograph for Captain Vire Gordon Menzies.

Starting on page 96 there is a photo gallery of (Britsh) Officers who lost their lives serving with the regiment in the Great War. https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.06500/page/n96/mode/1up?q=Menzies&view=theater

Four of them appear to be pictures taken in the pre-war period, and as reproduced on archive org, three of them can be used to give us some idea of the regiments' uniform. They are Lieutenant G. L. J. Cavendish, Captain H.B. Leapingwell and Lieutenant E. Woodward.

In fact a bit more delving in the books shows there is also a picture titled “Group of the British and Indian Officers taken at Jubbulpore 1911-1912” which appears before page 49. https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.06500/page/n53/mode/1up?q=Menzies&view=theater

The bad news is that the only unidentified officer wearing anything like this uniform is Officer 60, (and even then it's not centrally buttoned) and I’d be very, very, very surprised if he turns out to be Vire Gordon Menzies.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

So unless that 1911-12 photograph was taken to show off a brand new style of uniform and Vire, away at staff college, was still wearing the old one, I’m stumped

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 9 October , 2023 by PRC
1) Typos 2) 09/10/23 Re-instate images

[Bob Davies]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

The angle I’ve been working is that “The story of the 97th Deccan Infantry” by Major W.C. Kirkwood can be accessed on Archive.org and is a source for the photograph for Captain Vire Gordon Menzies.

A good idea Peter, interesting to see your views.  My next angle is to find the ages of the remaining Officers and compare them. Vire Gordon was born 13 Aug 1875. So in the Staff College photo he would be 35/36. So from that I think that number 24 is too young looking and number 60 is too old, in my opinion. However some people look older than their years. I had not considered 60. I will go through them all and post my findings tomorrow at some stage, a lot are Masons too, so I will list it all. Cheers, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

@PRC Peter, are you there, I am getting Royal Marine for William Campbell Little.  There may be a third button on number 60s cuff? Born 1875. No view of p s c. that I can see.Harts list 1908 courtesy ancestry gives us.

Edited 11 March , 2023 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I am getting Royal Marine for William Campbell Little. 

Left Royal Marines to join the Indian Army so other than medals I don't believe there would be any vestiges of his time with the Marines on his Army uniform. Officer 60 is dressed as per the other members of staff who are sat along the front, and that is what I suspect he is. But at the moment all we potentially have as a match is a member of the Indian Medical Staff and there is nothing about the uniform of Officer 60 or what can be seen of his white Wolseley Helmet that suggests he is a medical man.

William Campbell Little should be on both pictures, but I couldn't find him on the 1911 Haig visit photograph. Here's what I posted previously. Not the most convincing but the pouch belt badge, collar badges and single medal combination clinched it.

 (No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

Another one of the names still to be matched up with a face is Captain James Whitehead, 1st Brahmans. Captain Whitehead had no medals at the time this photograph was taken.

The Wikipedia article on that regiment is illustrated with a photograph of the British and Native Officers that is stated to have been taken in 1912. There are a variety of patterns of uniform worn by the British Officers present, including what I suspect is one of the dreaded cadre collars and cuffs. But the single most common variant, marked A-E shows a light coloured facing and no collar badges. It also seems in keeping with the native officers behind them.

Image courtesy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Brahmans

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner).

The 1912 edition of Harts Annual List tells us that the uniform was scarlet and the facings are white, but as usual is silent on whether collar badges were worn. Perhaps @FROGSMILE ’s new favourite book can provide some guidance

And btw, note Captain Whitehead is shown as attending Staff College, Quetta, from February 1911.

Image courtesy the National Library of Scotland. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100706662

Looking at the remaining unidentified faces, only Officer 6 comes anywhere near matching that uniform.

And with a face now in play I could look again at some of the other images from this period for the 1st Brahmans that are online. The National Army Museum has an album of 26 photographs, but as most are to do with sporting prowess there is little in the way of dress uniform on display. It does contain another group image of unnamed British and Native Officers, this time dated to 1904. However I’d parked it for the initial uniform matching part of the search as they are shown dressed for the field rather than in barracks.

But a check of that shows what appears to a familiar face, sat on the left hand end of the front row.
https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1963-10-39-2

Here’s a side by side comparison – note neither man has a service medal entitlement. But are they the same man?

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter