Numbers of British P.1907 bayonets surviving

[JMB1943]

On 08/10/2022 at 20:31, Phil B said:

9600

9345

9233

6275

5725 scabbard 5720

4130

4045

1070

 

Phil,

I think that we have reached a point where the numbers of your bayonets are beginning to become somewhat confusing!!

This post from Saturday lists numbers from 8 bayonets, but your Thai speaker's list shows only 7.

Comparing the JMB/TR vs Phil List  Vs Thai Speaker

JMB/TR      Phil List    Thai Speaker

3070          1070           x070                                                      

9233           xxxx           9233

9385           9345          9385

7600           9600          xxxx

4724           4725          5725

9130           4130          9130

8089           4045          8089

xxxxx          xxxx            6275

------------------------------------

1) Looks like the Thai speaker has not seen 7600 / 9600 

2) All four of us need to revisit 3070 / 1070 / x070

3)          ditto                             4724 / 4725 / 5725

4)  I would, of course, defer to the Thai speaker IF he had held the bayonets in his hands---did he??

Regards,

JMB

Edited 12 October , 2022 by JMB1943
typo

[t.ryan]

JMB, Phil B,

First looking at 3070. If you go back to page 4 there is a better photo of it, note the part of the first figure you can see then look just below that photo at the photo of 3290, from it you can see the full 3. I cannot see it being anything but 3070.

The other numbers. I have search through a fair bit of material on Thia. numbers. The thing is whichever chart you come across the individual numbers are all very similar in shape.

When we look at the set of numbers on the 1920 contract bayonets and rifles stamped on there by BSA; it is very clear that the numbers 4, 5, 8 & 9 differ a fair bit to the genuine Thia. numbers that we see on the charts, and as we can see they are very confusing. On the other hand 0,1,2,3,6 & 7 are very similar on both bayonets and Thai numeral charts.

BSA would have had to have the set of number stamps made up especially for this job and were either advised wrong about the shape of the numbers or the correct looking numbers were just to hard to replicate. Just my thoughts. 

Another chart to look at just to show how different the 4, 5, 8 & 9 are to those stamped on the bayonets that we are calling 4, 5, 8, & 9.

Cheers,

TR

[t.ryan]

Adding a bit more to bayonet 3070 and post above.

If you look at all the bayonet numbers containing a 3 you will see that both the 3 stamped on the bayonet and the 3 on the Thai charts are both laying the same way.

If you look at all the bayonet numbers containing a 1 you will see that the 1 is standing up but if you look at the Thai. charts showing the 1 then the 1 appears to be laying on its side.

This could lead to some confusion with what I believe is a 3 on 3070.

Below photo with 1 (standing up unlike what is on charts) & 3 side by side.

Cheers,

TR

[Phil B]

yeah I see what you mean, i think i will need use more than one chart in the future

 

[JMB1943]

TR,

Thanks for looking into the nuances of the Thai numerals.

As always, we have to be very careful when looking at less than perfect photos, and even then corrosion etc can make it a tricky call.

I’ll be using the numbers from the JMB/TR list above to enter into the overall table.

Regards,

JMB

Edit: The WILK PALL MALL above  (6913) looks like a new one.

Edited 13 October , 2022 by JMB1943
Add info.

[t.ryan]

JMB,

I think you edit above is about 6013 which is already on the list (not 6913). Photo of 6013 is only to compare the 1 & 3 in relation to 3070. 

I think I have photos of about 117 of those on the list. As you say, it is only the ones with not so easy to see photos or part of number missing that are the problem.

I think there are a couple of new ones in Phil's list, otherwise new numbers are getting hard to come by. 

Cheers, 

TR

 

[JMB1943]

TR,

Even with the chart in front of me, the errors creep in—I swear I must be getting punch drunk.

Thanks for picking up on that mistake.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[Steve1871]

Well, here’s mine, sorry, took so long to get home to do pic’s, gripsnot too good, the scabbard, where frog stud is pushed in, but does not effect bayonet at all, blade is blued and mint condition, have no idea on serial numbers, that is for you expert’s 

[t.ryan]

Steve1871,

Your bayonet number is 7948 and should be a new number for JMBs list.

Bayonet and metal scabbard both look in nice condition, as far as the wood grips go, yours are as good as most and better then some I have seen.

The weather conditions in Siam really affected the wood grips in most of the bayonets just as it did the leather on the original leather scabbards.

You may be able to ease the ding out of the scabbard mouth with a solid lever through the opening if so inclined, it is 100 years old tho.

Cheers,

TR

 

 

[JMB1943]

Steve1871,

Thanks for those nice, clear photos, especially of the serial #.

As Mr Ryan says, you COULD lever out the dent but we would agree that it is better to leave well alone!

BTW, do you routinely visit gun stores or antique shops looking for bayonets on your travels?

Regards,

JMB

 

[Dave66]

Evening all,

just spotted one that has popped up for sale here in the u.k…..https://www.jdrmilitaria.co.uk/product/siamese-contract-pattern-1907-smle-bayonet/

Pic below of number,

best wishes to you all,

Dave.

[JMB1943]

Dave,

Thanks for keeping your eyes open other there.

9903 is yet another new Tiger cub, if I can call 100+ years old a cub.

They are getting to be hard to spot nowadays!

Regards,

JMB
 

[Dave66]

7 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

Thanks for keeping your eyes open other there.

9903 is yet another new Tiger cub, if I can call 100+ years old a cub.

They are getting to be hard to spot nowadays!

Regards,

JMB
 

Certainly rarer this side of the world, haven’t seen one in the flesh for years and they don’t appear online that frequently at all.

Dave.

 

 

[t.ryan]

JMB

Your smiling tiger detectives have been working well this week with at least 4 new numbers showing up. Great to see how scattered they are with 1 showing up in the US, 1 in the UK and at least 2 here down under in Aussie. Although not always available, those good clear photos do really help. 

Cheers,

TR

[Steve1871]

Thank’s T.Ryan and JMB, glad to help, even just one Bayonet, I not going to try getting dents out, not worth the risk, bayonet still fit’s perfect, take care guys

[t.ryan]

JMB

I have been doing a bit more wet weather searching (bloody rain never stops) and found a new one for you to check for the list, 392.

Also one to check out as I believe the first photo which is on the list as 5503, "the green photo" is actually 5502.  The number is clearer on the second photo of the same bayonet and I believe it is a 2 stamped over a 1. Looks like it is now one of 4thGordons bayonets, it is a much clearer photo.

Cheers,

TR

 

[JMB1943]

TR,

Yes, indeed!

I had recognized that 550 X as an over-strike but called it wrong—thanks for picking it up.

We are closing in on the 200 mark now……

Regards,

JMB

 

[trajan]

This is heading towards a high survival rate for these ones!

[JMB1943]

Trajan,

Well, I must take the blame for the statement “closing in on the 200 mark now”.

I somehow managed to miscount the number of serials that had been recorded, and so went over everything carefully earlier this week.

1) The true(r) number is more like 160 complete serials and 13 incomplete serials = 173 total (1.73%).

There was that initial huge bump in sightings when Mr TR joined the thread and all of those Smiling Tigers in Oz were reported.

2) However, the numbers coming in from UK/US/AUS have fallen now to about 1 or 2 per month.

The issue now is how to take the info from (1) & (2) to arrive at a best estimate for the number of ST’s that survive.

We could make the following statements,

(A) There is at least another equal number (173) of ST’s out there, not yet recorded. So total is about 3.5% surviving.

(B) We have recorded X% in the range 1.7-100% of those surviving.

(C) Another 10 years would possibly yield an additional 120-240, for a total of 290-460 (2.9-4.6%).

I need to find estimates of survival rates of other bayonet types to compare with our numbers.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[Phil B]

Here is number 9 I was lucky enough to get the other day . I haven’t checked the register yet so you guys can enjoy the challenge. I have another acquisition in the pipeline with a smle. I will share when I take possession. Currently I have 9 bayonets and 8 rifles. Cheer Phil 

[t.ryan]

Hi Phil B,

No 7128 does not appear to be on JMB's latest list but I am sure he will check it out.

It has been a bit quiet on here so glad you found this one, and another good score to add to your growing litter of smiling kittens. Great collection you are putting together.

I recently gained one also, it is one I had mentioned earlier that was hanging in the rafters of a little country store/museum for want of a better word. On a recent visit passing through the area, he finally relented and sold it to me.

Had to repair grips and replace rusted and broken screws but metal work on bayonet and all metal scabbard is fine.

Cheers,

TR

[Phil B]

[JMB1943]

Phil B--Thanks for that new tiger (7128), and the photos of the stacked rifles. Keep up the good work!

How does the general condition of the Tiger SMLE's (esp. the woodwork) compare to that of the bayonets?

Mr Ryan--Persistence does bring its rewards; I imagine that you have previously posted the serial.

Regards,

JMB

 

[Phil B]

3 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Phil B--Thanks for that new tiger (7128), and the photos of the stacked rifles. Keep up the good work!

How does the general condition of the Tiger SMLE's (esp. the woodwork) compare to that of the bayonets?

Mr Ryan--Persistence does bring its rewards; I imagine that you have previously posted the serial.

Regards,

JMB

 

Actually like any other in the 1907 family the condition varies. The grips on this one are less than perfect but intact. It could be from what arsenal in Thailand they were issued to or who the individual who owned it surplus later on. I never realised until recently how in-depth the Wild Tiger Corps were and how they were spread out over the country.

[t.ryan]

JMB,

You do have the number (8833) of the smiling tiger that I saved from rusting away in the rafters, it should last another 100years now.

Phil B

 JMB started this post in relation to the number of smiling tiger bayonets remaining in circulation and we have seen quiet a few good photos of them show up here on this forum and have had some good feed back on these bayonets, why don't you start a new post on the SMLE smiling tiger rifles in a similar way.

I am sure we would all like to see some nice close up individual photo shots of your rifles and you never know, it might bring some more of the smiling tiger rifles out of the woodwork.

Cheers

TR