Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

There is no date or notes on the reverse, but with the S.D cap I would place it around 1906.  The chap in question has leather football buttons on frock and F.S cap.

Edited 14 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The rank is indeed QMS in the well-before 1915 period concerned, and I did not mean to suggest anything different.  My point was that in the various branches of artillery at that time there were a variety of appointments that a QMS could hold, and that they did not always have a special badge to indicate their function. I hope that is sufficiently clear now.

It was sufficiently clear before. My addendum was for the benefit of readers in general.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

It was sufficiently clear before. My addendum was for the benefit of readers in general.

Understood.

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

There is no date or notes on the reverse, but with the S.D cap I would place it around 1906.  The chap in question has leather football buttons on frock and F.S cap.

Yes, I think that the F.S. cap had replaced the previous forage caps that would once have been worn by a Conductor in such circumstances. I can definitely see the hint of a badge on his right sleeve and his jacket has a mitred cuff, which suggests a form of khaki serge going by the cut and appearance.

[Muerrisch]

19 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The cap is unusual. I think the cap might not have been issued there. 

There was a complicated but rational agreement regarding part-used items of clothing for soldiers going from Home to India, and from India to Home. These were essentially that a soldier's clothing was to be used in the new posting for the part year of arrival before the local issue. This was principally "coats" but extended to headgear.

Clothing Regs India should answer this one, I will look tomorrow.

Unfortunately "cap" in the CR 1909 and 1914 is not conclusive, but as there is also "helmet" and the peakless forage cap was an issue, I think the cap in the picture might be decoded by reference to unit postings ......... India [scout badge] to Malta, Egypt or Gibraltar, or Home/Gib/Malta/Egypt to India and awarded badge before helmet issue.

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

He is among staff sergeants ........ would a sub-conductor tolerate that?

They are seriously uptight about precedent.

I think that would certainly be the case in a pre-planned formal photo, but this looks quite relaxed and impromptu, so I think it would’ve been less of an issue.  We cannot know of course and I recognise that. 

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

What is this???

Just a punt, but as soon as I saw I thought...4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards NCO's arm badge???

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Just a punt, but as soon as I saw I thought...4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards NCO's arm badge???

 

Chris

 

Brilliant, Chris, I think you have it!  Explains the ‘cowboy’ hat (which he clearly thinks is a hilarious joke) too!

Edited 14 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

6 hours ago, Dragoon said:

..4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards NCO's arm badge???

 

 

That has to be it, thank you, what an odd mix! His title that is just visible would be similar to this. 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

He obviously thought he was the Sheriff! I wonder if that was his nickname. 
 

Overall I think that given the range of cap badges that are apparent, your image very probably represents a brigaded sergeants’ mess tent at a regular army training camp.

Edited 15 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

7 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

That has to be it, thank you, what an odd mix! His title that is just visible would be similar to this. 

 

 

 

I know during WW1 4DG wore a blue on khaki cloth title on an oval shape.

Don't know what they wore pre war.

A big thank you to all who contribute to this thread, this and the postcard thread are my favourite parts of the forum, some amazing pictures!

I show my dad the photos, he loves them.

So cheers to all

 

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Brainstorming.

The possible conductor or sub-conductor ........... a thought, driven by a possible brigaded Mess: might he be the Mess/Canteen Manager? I have seen groups where a man in semi-military garb turns out to be such. These were sometimes retired SNCOs augmenting the pension. 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Brainstorming.

The possible conductor or sub-conductor ........... a thought, driven by a possible brigaded Mess: might he be the Mess/Canteen Manager? I have seen groups where a man in semi-military garb turns out to be such. These were sometimes retired SNCOs augmenting the pension. 

 

 

 

There's too much uniform being worn I believe.  The canteen manager had to be retired and would invariably be seen in an apron in those photos that I've seen.  I'm not decrying your thinking, but personally I don't think it's what is seen here.

[Muerrisch]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

There's too much uniform being worn I believe.  The canteen manager had to be retired and would invariably be seen in an apron in those photos that I've seen.  I'm not decrying your thinking, but personally I don't think it's what is seen here.

 

Thank you ........ I have him as an attractive mystery. I was delighted to see a drum major of RE ....... they didn't exactly grow on trees.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Thank you ........ I have him as an attractive mystery. I was delighted to see a drum major of RE ....... they didn't exactly grow on trees.

That might be because he’s a Royal Fusilier (pre-shoulder strap and so without the metal grenade made standard C1905) .  If he’d been a proper fusilier, a Royal Welsh Fusilier, he wouldn’t have been photographed with both his top buttons unfastened.

 

NB. RE title was Garter blue on red.

Edited 16 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Just shows I cannot read.

Blame Toby's ID upstream.

[Toby Brayley]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Blame Toby's ID upstream.

 

 

Yes my fault!  Not RE but certainly R.F. Good spot @FROGSMILE!  So the  mix is even more curious!

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Dragoon said:

 

Don't know what they wore pre war.

A big thank you to all who contribute to this thread,

 

 

Most welcome, they would have had 4DG blue on yellow. 

 

 

Edited 16 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

A motley mix of SNCOs from various regiments, with men carrying out a variety of roles and functions often led to a brigaded sergeants’ mess.  The last time I saw them in use was the early 1990s, and they had changed very little in those pre-internet days, with everything still done with print and paper, bar chitties, nominal rolls for feeding strengths, hand peeled potatoes, kegs of ale on tap, and cotton canvas tentage in the form of marquees. I hadn’t realised it at the time, but I would not see its like again, despite serving on for a further 20 Years.  After the “options for change” defence review and “full cost budgeting initiatives”, the numbers deployed on formation level exercises were too small to justify the effort and expense.  It was the end of an era in that regard.

Edited 16 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

9 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Yes my fault!  Not RE but certainly R.F. Good spot @FROGSMILE!  So the  mix is even more curious!

 

 

 

 

 

Most welcome, they would have had 4DG blue on yellow. 

 

 

Fascinating!

I was unaware of such coloured titles worn by the cavalry.

May I ask which regulations this came from and roughly what years were these titles worn?

And I thought I had all the 3DG titles! Another to hunt down and get!

Thank you Toby.

 

Chris

[Toby Brayley]

9 hours ago, Dragoon said:

 

And I thought I had all the 3DG titles! Another to hunt down and get!

Thank you Toby.

 

Chris

 

That is from one of the 1902 army orders, I will dig it out and get the exact reference.   There are a number of the Cavalry titles illustrated in this thread, but they tend to be very rare and the film stock of the era wreaks havoc with the colours!  I have photograph examples of the 10th, 11th, 13th and 19th Hussars and I think that is it! On the S.D the cavalry would would have had yellow piped shoulder boards, rather than the red of the infantry. This original Sealed Pattern SD that the IWM were kind enough to let me handle,  should both infantry and Cavalry titles. but sadly the yellow Calvary title was removed long ago, but the traces of the yellow cloth and thread still remain. The SP label also states that the cavalry titles are blue on yellow. 

 

[Dragoon]

12 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

That is from one of the 1902 army orders, I will dig it out and get the exact reference.   There are a number of the Cavalry titles illustrated in this thread, but they tend to be very rare and the film stock of the era wreaks havoc with the colours!  I have photograph examples of the 10th, 11th, 13th and 19th Hussars and I think that is it! On the S.D the cavalry would would have had yellow piped shoulder boards, rather than the red of the infantry. This original Sealed Pattern SD that the IWM were kind enough to let me handle,  should both infantry and Cavalry titles. but sadly the yellow Calvary title was removed long ago, but the traces of the yellow cloth and thread still remain. The SP label also states that the cavalry titles are blue on yellow. 

 

Thank you for that Toby, and sorry for late reply.

Shame the title was missing off the tunic!

Very interesting stuff! I knew of the titles from the other services and infantry, artillery etc but not these blue on yellow cavalry titles.

The army orders would be great, thank you.

I wonder if 3DG did have these titles, maybe the photos from the small arms museum Hythe courses may crop up with something!

Cheers again Toby

 

Chris

 

[Toby Brayley]

Yes, I am going back soon so will have a look!

 

I will consolidate of the photos of Cavalry titles shortly as 4DG might appear. The only real blue on yellow Cavalry titles I have seen are 1DG and 7DG and 11H.

 

 

A couple of recent additions,  a pair of cabinet cards of unknown signalers from the Worcestershire Regiment. I have a few of the Worcesters all taken by various photographers in Pembroke. Given the location, they could be from the 2nd Battalion, stationed there from 1887 to 1889.

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Super images.  Personally I think that the hair styles and fashion of civilian clothing suggest the latter part of that timescale.  Hard to imagine today, but apparently because the cleaning of white facings was so difficult a practice grew up of lightly pipe-claying them.  It worked until it rained!

Edited 18 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Yes, I am going back soon 

 

 

Want to borrow my camera? 

[Drew-1918]

 

Post Office Rifles, Chingford, 1906. Sent by Rifleman Hoare to 'Florrie'. "What thinkest Thou of my 4.7 smile. It must have been the pork pie."

Not amazingly sharp or detailed, but thought I would share.

 

Regards,

Chris