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Remembered Today:

Toby Brayley

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

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RNCVR

Toby,  your white tunic is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!   I like the Serg't Pioneer RPPC as well.

What is the insignia above the crossed axes pls?

 

Thanks much for showing these to the membership!

 

Best wishes,

Bryan

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

Superb photos of an original white cotton drill frock Toby, thank you for posting them.  The pioneer sergeant is 1st Battalion “Oxfordshire Light Infantry” going by the pagri/puggaree badge.

 

1903. India: Subathu 

1906. Lucknow 

1908.10.16 - became 1st Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

1909. Madras  

1912. Ahmednagar

Edited by FROGSMILE

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Toby,  your white tunic is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!   I like the Serg't Pioneer RPPC as well.

What is the insignia above the crossed axes pls?

 

Thanks much for showing these to the membership!

 

Best wishes,

Bryan


The insignia above the axes is a bugle horn, Bryan.  This was a special dress feature of the regiment’s pioneers. Fusiliers had a grenade above their axes and light infantry the bugle horn.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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RNCVR
Posted (edited)

Thanks mate, I have to say I am learning a considerable amount concerning pre 1WW & 1WW period Army uniforms & insignia from the superb RPPC's & information posted on the GWF!

 

Best wishes,

(Navy)Bryan

Edited by RNCVR

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Toby Brayley
Posted (edited)

A new addition to the thread. BEDFORD title. 

 

Men of the 2nd Battalion onboard ship. C1904. A large mounted photograph. 

2094405985_BedfordBrodrickonship.jpg.a241939de2f2abdb0c72008995bf9ccb.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley

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Dragoon
1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

A new addition to the thread. BEDFORD title. 

 

Men of the 2nd Battalion onboard ship. C1904. A large mounted photograph. 

2094405985_BedfordBrodrickonship.jpg.a241939de2f2abdb0c72008995bf9ccb.jpg

Nice! Thank you.

What colour was on the cap behind the badge please?

 

Chris

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RNCVR

The very young looking boy seated with hands folded in his lap barely looks to be in his teens!

 

At what age were they allowed to join the Army?

 

Thanks,

Bryan

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, RNCVR said:

The very young looking boy seated with hands folded in his lap barely looks to be in his teens!

 

At what age were they allowed to join the Army?

 

Thanks,

Bryan


It’s been as per the statutory school leaving age since that law was introduced Bryan, so it was 12 at the beginning of WW1, although most boys were at least 14.  That latter age then became the minimum after the war, and remained so until after WW2, when it went up to 15, changing again to 16 in 1973.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Nice! Thank you.

What colour was on the cap behind the badge please?

 

Chris


It was white for the Bedfordshire Regiment, Chris, as per their facings.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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RNCVR
1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:


It’s been as per the statutory school leaving age since that law was introduced Bryan, so it was 12 at the beginning of WW1, although most boys were at least 14.  That latter age then became the minimum after the war, and remained so until after WW2, when it went up to 15, changing again to 16 in 1973.

 

Thanks Froggie, pretty young then. Similar to RN Boy entry during 1WW time.

 

Best.... Bryan

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FROGSMILE
31 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

Thanks Froggie, pretty young then. Similar to RN Boy entry during 1WW time.

 

Best.... Bryan


Yes, they were both governed by the same national legislation of course.

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RNCVR

Naval Cadets came in very young as well. In the mid 19th C they could enter at 14.

Jackie Fisher was only 13 1\2 when be entered RN in 1854.

A yr later he earned his first of many medals, decorations & orders - the Baltic medal for the 1855 expedition to the Gulf of Finland during Crimean war.

 

Best... Bryan

 

 

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Dragoon
9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:


It was white for the Bedfordshire Regiment, Chris, as per their facings.

👍🏻Thank you FROGSMILE.

Chris

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Naval Cadets came in very young as well. In the mid 19th C they could enter at 14.

Jackie Fisher was only 13 1\2 when be entered RN in 1854.

A yr later he earned his first of many medals, decorations & orders - the Baltic medal for the 1855 expedition to the Gulf of Finland during Crimean war.

 

Best... Bryan

 

 


Yes, they certainly trained them early in those days.  I know that the employment of Boys in the Royal Navy began earlier and was significantly more extensive than it was in the Army, where it was largely confined to bands, corps of drums, and unit artisan workshops.  I learned that the vast majority of the crew in a WW1 ship started their service as Boy ratings who spent their first year on a hulk or stone frigate and their second year at sea undergoing further training.

It interested me that youthful enlistment has continued in the British Army in a way that it has not in the RN and so I did a bit of research as to why that was.  I found that there were a number of factors that eventually coincided to bring about the demise.  The first was a need to reduce expenditure after WW2, another was that public opinion came down firmly against because so many boys were killed in both world wars during the loss of capital ships, but apparently the final nail in the coffin was a persistence with the institutional infliction of corporal punishment at a time when society was changing.  The press apparently got hold of this as a crusading issue and after some embarrassment the two matters became conflated and it was decided best all round if Junior entry (as it had been renamed) was ended.  The Army has been under pressure to follow suit for some years now following the UN Resolution to end the recruitment of Boy Soldiers and it is regularly used as a stick with which to beat HM Govt.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Jerry B

I thought it appropriate to add the recent addition to my collection of BUFFS over 1

buffs scan watermarked.jpg

buffs scan watermarked cropped 2.jpg

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Toby Brayley

Brilliant thank you! 

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GWF1967

R.G.A. 

Photographer.

John Walker & Co. London 

R.A T.F.. (4).jpg

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GWF1967

R.F.A. T.F. 

R.A T.F.. (3).jpg

R.A T.F.. (5).jpg

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Muerrisch

seven stars is a lot of service.

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Jerry B

 Glosters TF, reverse says 1st/5th no.8 platoon at camp, to dear Gladys from your brother Fred.

 

of those kneeling, two clearly have 5's whilst one to the left might be a 4.

gloster tf front wm.jpeg

gloster tf front detail.jpg

gloster tf front detail 2.jpg

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FROGSMILE
2 hours ago, Jerry B said:

 Glosters TF, reverse says 1st/5th no.8 platoon at camp, to dear Gladys from your brother Fred.

 

of those kneeling, two clearly have 5's whilst one to the left might be a 4.

 


Super photos Jerry, thank you for posting them.  The 5th Glosters cloth shoulder title was in unusual colours and surviving badges are quite rare.  From memory I think that they were red on rifle green.  The 4th’s title was the conventional white on red.

A11515E9-7A00-4233-B3EC-A1FFAD19BB01.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Jerry B

thank you froggy.

 

when comparing the right front title which is clearly T5 to those in the center and the left on which the numbers are not so clear, the colours do look to possibly be different, but perhaps not clearly so.

gloster tf front titles close up.jpg

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Dragoon

Nice photo!

This is a picture from another thread on this forum, hope this helps.

And your memory serves you well FROGSMILE 👍🏻

 

Chris

post-20062-1202939548.jpg

Edited by Dragoon

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Jerry B
18 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Nice photo!

This is a picture from another thread on this forum, hope this helps.

And your memory serves you well FROGSMILE 👍🏻

 

Chris

post-20062-1202939548.jpg

 

 

thanks you chris, nice to see T5 in colour to compare with the T4 froggy posted

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FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, Jerry B said:

thank you froggy.

 

when comparing the right front title which is clearly T5 to those in the center and the left on which the numbers are not so clear, the colours do look to possibly be different, but perhaps not clearly so.

 


I think that white would have stood out as clearly different when seen directly alongside red even with the limits of orthochromatic film Jerry.
 

57 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Nice photo!

This is a picture from another thread on this forum, hope this helps.

And your memory serves you well FROGSMILE 👍🏻

 

Chris

 


Thank you Chris, I’d forgotten about that thread.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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