Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[rob carman]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Here you go Rob,

 

 

Thank you.  

[FROGSMILE]

It’s not the Khedive Star, but exactly what else it might be I’m unsure.  There were some star shaped medals for Queen Victoria’s Diamond Jubilee, but they were not military issue.  As you will recall the wear of non-military medals was very restricted, but I’m beginning to wonder if this is one of those rare exceptions.  His other medal looks like it might be a volunteer service medal, so perhaps he’s not a regular.

 

Finally, another point of significance with regards to dating the photo is that both seated AOC WOs are wearing the 03 pattern, brown leather Slade Wallace sword belt, staff sergeant, which replaced the previous white version.

[Muerrisch]

Ashanti Star 1896. I would be surprised if auxilliry forces included conductors.

 

Edited 22 January , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Ashanti Star 1896. I would be surprised if auxilliry forces included conductors.

 

Good spot!  I’d heard of the Ashanti Star but never seen one before.  With that information to hand we should be able to identify the conductor, as i can’t imagine that the AOC element was that large.  The medals were issued unnamed, but the Colonel of the 2nd Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment had his unit's stars engraved at his own expense. 

I recall that in the previous expedition of 1873-4 the logistical planning was held up at the time as a master class in how planning should be done.  It all added to Wolseley’s burgeoning reputation.  The 1896 expedition, under Colonel Scott, was smaller and a lot less glorious.  The submission of King Prempeh of the Ashanti caused great controversy in the media and parliament because it involved the King prostrating himself and actually kissing the feet of the Victors (the Colonel and his immediate staff).

 

There’s interesting detail about the completely bloodless campaign and associated medal here: https://www.dcmmedals.co.uk/ashanti-1896-a-bloodless-campaign-in-west-africa/

 

Approx 2,200 medals issued.  Medal roll: WO.100-79 (less artillery).  The rolls have been published (as part of a book) by Picton 1987.  Authors McInnes and M. Fraser: “Ashanti 1895-96”.

 

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Might the other award be a South Africa Medal 1877-79?  There were other AOC who had that combination.

 

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

My paternal grandfather had the Zulu War medal, as a bugler with the Rifles. Also Sudan and Khedive's Star. I have his medal  ribbons but alas no meals.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

My paternal grandfather had the Zulu War medal, as a bugler with the Rifles. Also Sudan and Khedive's Star. I have his medal  ribbons but alas no meals.

 

 

I think that with some help we ought to be able to identify the conductor in the photo, as the number of holders is small, and the roll has been published.

Edited 22 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Indeed, that is why the Ashanti Star caught my eye don't see it very often in photographs at all! 

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Indeed, that is why the Ashanti Star caught my eye don't see it very often in photographs at all! 

Yes, you hit the nail on the head, Toby. I got myself confused with the Khedive Star.  I hope it’s not senility creeping in! 

[Sepoy]

On 21/01/2020 at 19:51, Muerrisch said:

 

 

The bewhiskered gent seated left appears to be a Conductor AOC. If so, a rare bird indeed. Comments please.

Typical, I have just typed this all out, only to somehow delete everything when there was a panic elsewhere in the house. So here we go again!

Row One
Toby you are quite correct about the Conductor wearing an Ashanti Star. He is also wearing an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.
The seated AOC man next to him is wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps and an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.

Row Two
The RFA chap holding the pipe (on our left) is wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps; King's South Africa Medal with South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902 clasps; and
an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.
The RFA chap in the middle is the really interesting man. He is wearing a Distinguished Conduct Medal; Indian General Service Medal (1854 - 1895); and India Medal (1895 -1902) with two clasps and an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal. DCMs for the Indian Campaigns are not that common so this man is potentially identifiable. Unfortunately, I am currently unable to get to my library.
The AOC chap on our right is wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps and King's South Africa Medal with South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902 clasps.

The man smoking in the doorway is probably wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps.

A great photograph!

Sepoy

 

Edited 23 January , 2020 by Sepoy

[Muerrisch]

Thank you Sepoy, valuable extra ID material.

 

My personal excitement was caused by the conductor identifiable as such .......... vanishingly rare in so fr as photos in the public domain are concerned.

Edited 23 January , 2020 by Muerrisch

[Muerrisch]

This is not necessarily the right thread for what follows so I will also post in the Books section. Here goes:

 

Many matters are covered in Regulations .

I have never seen a list of what was issued regarding Sovereign's, those for the VF, TF, Militia and Special Reserve. I collect all these as originals [not web] and I am sure that I do not have the full Monty. 

I would be most grateful to know of others in the various series, and extremely grateful to know  that members have copies in the gaps .... or even on the internet.

I also have many Army Orders but far from a complete set for our period of interest.

Here follows my book list. Thank you in advance.

 

General Regs & Orders 1811

KR 1837

QVR 1859

QVR 1868

QVR 1873

QVR 1883

QVR  1885

QVR 1889

QVR 1892

QVR 1895

QVR 1898

KR 1904

KR1908

KR 1914

KR 1914

KR 1914

KR 1923

KR 1928

KR 1928 amended to 1933

KR 1935

KR 1935

KR 1940

KR 1940 amended to 1945

QR 1955

QR 1961

4th Army SO I c.1917

4th ARMY SO II c.1917

Militia regs 1880

Miitia regs 1889

Militia regs 1895

Militia Regs 1904

VF Regs 1861

VF regs 1863

VF regs 1878

VF regs 1881

VF regs 1891

VF Regs 1884

VF Regs 1895

VF Regs 1897

VF Regs 1901

TF Regs 1910

TF regs  1912

TF Regs 1936

[Toby Brayley]

Here is a gem I recently paid well over the odds for!  The new scanner is brilliant (1200DPI and you can see the nap of the fabric!). 1st Volunteer Btn Royal Fusiliers (1VBRF Titles). Hammers and Pinchers with wheel.  Given the presence of "military" bicycles and the badge combination I suspect they are the Btn Bicycle mechanics? Enjoy!

 

 

 

Edited 24 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Oh! Oh! ......... cyclist badge pictures are as scarce as rocking horse byproduct. They seem almost always to be RF/London/VF/TF in wear.

Many thanks '''' you were not robbed. Pass the hat round for this one!

[Toby Brayley]

Just now, Muerrisch said:

Pass the hat round for this one!

 

Consider it a belated Christmas present! I suspect the main interest here was actually the Bicycles.

[FROGSMILE]

Fantastically rare photo, and an unusual use of the hammer and pincers badge.  That badge is of special interest to me, as there is quite strong circumstantial evidence that it’s early use was confined to the Board of Ordnance corps: the Royal Regiment of Artillery (smiths and armaments armourers), and Corps of Royal Engineers (artificers).  

Interestingly, there is no evidence that the Armourer Sergeants of cavalry and infantry regiments wore them until after a discrete Corps of Armourer Sergeants was created in the aftermath of the Crimean War, and even then it was not until several decades later that the badges began to be worn by those Armourers attached to the cavalry and infantry, with the latter seemingly leading the way (this is all based on photographic evidence and the scrutiny of documents pertaining to clothing regulation).

Edited 24 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

no evidence that the Armourer Sergeants of cavalry and infantry regiments wore them until after a discrete Corps of Armourer Sergeants was created in the aftermath of the Crimean War,

 

How early was this please? It seems possible that it was the oldest "trade" badge other than VS wreath Valiant Stormer Peninsula War, and the marksmanship cockades, both of Rifles of course.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

no evidence that the Armourer Sergeants of cavalry and infantry regiments wore them until after a discrete Corps of Armourer Sergeants was created in the aftermath of the Crimean War,

 

How early was this please? It seems possible that it was the oldest "trade" badge other than VS wreath Valiant Stormer Peninsula War, and the marksmanship cockades, both of Rifles of course.

From memory only the CofAS was formed in 1858, but Peter and I could not find any clothing regulations supporting the wear of the badge by cavalry and infantry AS until 1881 (despite the existence of AS since at least the early 1800s, and with evidence since before that (painting of ‘Gunsmith on Woolwich Common’ refers)).  
 

Before that and since ‘at least 1864’ they were worn by RA armaments armourers (when they are mentioned in standing orders and trumpet calls), but quite possibly before that, as well as probably RE equivalents.  You commented in your joint book with Edwards regarding the 1864 date.  The suggestion pre that date is really my own speculation as it seems likely that the regulations cemented something already in wear, as is so often the case.

Edited 24 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you very much.

[Muerrisch]

The cyclist LCpl is a Boer War [all of it] veteran. Probably as a member of a Volunteer Company,  he looks too young to be an ex- short service regular.

[Sepoy]

8 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

The new scanner is brilliant (1200DPI and you can see the nap of the fabric!).

Toby
What a superb photograph.
Out of interest, what make/model scanner are you using?
I would like to go through all my photographs/postcards and scan, or re scan, them. My Canon scanner will need to be replaced in the not too distant future, although at present, I have very little spare time to start the project.
Sepoy

Edited 24 January , 2020 by Sepoy

[Sepoy]

Royal Army Medical Corps Volunteers. Unfortunately, I cannot make out their exactly what the shoulder titles say.

Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

It’s great to see the 5-button RAMC frock with its cuff knot decoration, as it’s the first time that I’ve been able to see what the precise configuration was for a staff sergeant.  Thank you!

[Sepoy]

A small group of Royal Artillery Officers and Battery Sergeant Majors.
Three of the BSMs are wearing early 1902 Pattern Service dress with twisted cord shoulder straps and Brodrick caps.
Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

A typical array of regular army moustaches on display.  It’s also interesting to see that the officer seated far left has two buttons on the inside of his trouser bottoms to facilitate the fixture of leather straps that secure under the instep of low boots.