Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

Super thank you for posting @Sepoy, that is another style of RAMCV shoulder titles we can add to the list, it is slightly different to the one I posed a while back. 

 

On 24/01/2020 at 16:03, Sepoy said:

Out of interest, what make/model scanner are you using?
 

 

I use a Brother MFC-6490CW (that is old and no longer made). My latest one is a Brother MFC-J6530DW and that really is superb, not too pricey either. 

 

Regards

Toby

[Toby Brayley]

Recent addition to the collection. Cabinet card of a Bugler c1900, wearing the, seldom seen, straight bugler badge.  A nice surprise, that only became apparent when I scanned him in,  is that the shoulder straps on his 1899 Serge Frock are rather unusually embroidered, they reveal he is a member of the 1st Volunteer Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Posted in error and unable to delete.

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Postcard sent in 1906. I suspect they are Scots Guards shooting prize winners. Nice array of prize and trade badges, including the crossed rifles surmounted by a crown.  A fine study of the SGs "New Pattern Forage Cap" aka the Brodrick.  

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Another super image, Toby. Thank you for posting.  I’ve often wondered if the Guardsmen themselves ever referred to that style of their headdress as Brodrick caps.  They were issued two years before the line and were a slightly different design, without flap, and ‘set-up’ (a very old term sometimes also referred to as ‘cocked’) to achieve a stiffer, more upright appearance.  I imagine that as well as wiring for the circumference and a brass plate torsion bar on the front behind the badge, there might have been buckram stiffening the sides, but I do not know for sure.  I’d be very interested if anyone knows of, or finds any reference within guards literature and correspondence, formal or informal to their cap as a Brodrick.  Interestingly I also read somewhere that George V, aka the Sailor King, was the progenitor of the caps having seen and admired them as very smart on Russian seamen during a fraternal meeting with the Czar (Nicholas) at sea.  The story then went that when issued they were so unpopular that rather than let the King take the blame, the Secretary of State for War, Brodrick, took the rap in gentlemanly self sacrifice.  I’ve no idea if it’s true but it certainly seems feasible and makes for a good story.

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/01/2020 at 14:22, Toby Brayley said:

Recent addition to the collection. Cabinet card of a Bugler c1900, wearing the, seldom seen, straight bugler badge.  A nice surprise, that only became apparent when I scanned him in,  is that the shoulder straps on his 1899 Serge Frock are rather unusually embroidered, they reveal he is a member of the 1st Volunteer Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers.

 

 

This is a very intriguing photo to me as it suggests the uniform as grey with red or green shoulder titles and bugle badge.  Yet Westlake indicates that full dress was scarlet with blue facings changing to scarlet with white.  What do you think?

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Postcard sent in 1906. I suspect they are Scots Guards shooting prize winners. Nice array of prize and trade badges, including the crossed rifles surmounted by a crown.  A fine study of the SGs "New Pattern Forage Cap" aka the Brodrick.  

 

 

 

The sergeant may be a rubbishy shot .... although I doubt it. His badge signifies that he is a SNCO of the best shooting company.

[Toby Brayley]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

.  I’ve often wondered if the Guardsmen themselves ever referred to that style of their headdress as Brodrick caps.  

 

Well..perfect timing.. I have just returned from a few days at the IWM and NAM looking at their hitherto undocumented "peakless caps" for my upcoming "book" on them. Whilst it is unclear if the Guards ever referred to them as the "Brodrick" they certainly were called it by the press and public of the time. The construction of the Guards caps does differ greatly from the "Brodrick" used by the rest of the Army/RMLI/RMA etc and thus I have referred to the as "The Guards Peak-less Cap" to avoid confusion. 

 

During my many months of research, that has taken me to National/Regimental Museums and private collections, I have uncovered two patterns of the Guards cap, the latter has never been mentioned or compared with the first and have uncovered lots of new information on the cap, that I hope will be of interest. I subjected poor @Muerrisch to a much need proof read, and since then much more has been added.  The Guards versions, from the start, are actually of an inferior quality to the later caps adopted by the Army, the Guards second pattern is truly awful. There was a small amount of Buckram stiffing to the side and no wire stiffener around the top, the piping provided a form of reinforcement. Handling the sealed pattern examples and looking at those in my collection there was never a frontal stiffener. In photographs you can clear see that some, usually NCOs, certainly have added a stiffener by the presence of the enhanced crown. 

 

Here is a sneak peak...if you want to know more you will have to wait until October! (yes shameless plug!) but these are the first time these caps have ever seen the light of day. 

 

 

 

Above: Sealed patterns of the Coldstream Guards and Irish Guards "New Pattern Forage Cap". Note the first pattern (sealed 1900) has a quilted top (providing natural stiffening) and a permanent cloth band that is integral to construction of the cap. The 2nd pattern is simplified with a sewn on band, in the case of the CG cap it is a horrid herringbone twill band the same as the maneuver and officer cadet bands and later CG caps. Note how the oilskin liner now extends around the outside of the cap. They are quite different to the versions adopted by the Army aside from the obvious difference the ventilation holes are also in a different location. 

 

 

 

 

Sealed Pattern of the Scots Guards Second Pattern cap. 

 

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Derek Black]

I like the story that the King was to blame and an underling threw their reputation into the gutter to protect his majesterialness.

 

I hope August never comes.... they are horrific things! (put me down for a copy but don't tell anyone, shh)

 

Derek.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Toby.  I will certainly wish to purchase a copy of your book. I’d known for some time that the Guards pattern peak less forage cap was a completely different pattern to that adopted by the line, but beyond the obvious not what the detailed differences were.  It surprises me greatly that the Guards version was of poorer quality, but not so much that any stiffening had to be carried out by the guardsmen themselves.  My reading and discussions with very ‘old soldiers’ suggested to me that ‘setting-up’ of headdress was a very old Guards practice extending back to earlier patterns of peaked and peak less forage cap. Indeed it continues today with cutting of the peak and alteration of the vertical torsion plate. The use of a white, cotton herringbone web band for the Coldstream Guards cap also went back a long way, and was I recall still the type used when the peaked cap of 1905 was introduced.  I shall look forward to reading your published work very much indeed.

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

And you can put me down for a copy as well Toby!

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

I like the story that the King was to blame and an underling threw their reputation into the gutter to protect his majesterialness.

 

I hope August never comes.... they are horrific things! (put me down for a copy but don't tell anyone, shh)

 

Derek.

I read the story in a published work and wish that I’d made a note of which one it was.  Back then I was moving around all the time and keeping books and research material was more difficult, especially so after my organised wife passed on, so I had to be very selective.  There seems to me to be a good chance that the veracity of the story is based on sound information.  Britain’s sovereigns had long taken an interest in the minutiae of the uniforms worn in their service, especially the household troops (William IV being a particular example). One cannot say the same thing about politicians and from his reputation I cannot see why Brodrick might have been different.

 

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 cotton herringbone web band for the Coldstream Guards cap also went back a long way, and was I recall still the type used when the peaked cap of 1905 was introduced.  

 

Yes! Its exactly the same as that, the 2nd pattern is horrid compared to the 1st. Considering the Quality of the Army caps (despite it being ugly, it is very well made), I can start to see why they must have been hated.

 

12 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

And you can put me down for a copy as well Toby!

 

30 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

they are horrific things! (put me down for a copy but don't tell anyone, shh)

 

Derek.

Thank you chaps, I will keep you all informed. 

 

Anyway back on topic, well sort of, I have this postcard in my collection also. I am 100% certain the same Sergeant and Guardsman are in the shot it is probably connected. 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Another evocative photo.  It definitely shows the same sergeant and 2-good conduct badges man (not including drummer) and I imagine is a SG shooting team together with its prize. In this frame almost all the musketry badges have been captured, which provides admirable context.

Edited 30 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Three additional aspects of the group photo delight me.

The corporal seated on our left is wearing the "SNCO of best shooting company" badge on his right cuff. In those days substantive corporals did not automatically become lance-sergeants with three white chevrons, so we cannot be sure if he is a lance-corporal or a full corporal. Either way, his wearing of crossed rifles and crown is not in accordance with the regulations. Nothing new there for the Foot Guards.

Another aspect is that these men are all Boer War veterans.

And the sergeant is indeed a marksman.

[Sepoy]

7 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Postcard sent in 1906. I suspect they are Scots Guards shooting prize winners. Nice array of prize and trade badges, including the crossed rifles surmounted by a crown.  A fine study of the SGs "New Pattern Forage Cap" aka the Brodrick.  

 

 

I have an un-scanned large format of group photo of Scots Guards Sergeants on their arrival in South Africa, for service in the Anglo Boer War. When I get a chance, I will check to see if this Sgt was amongst them.

Sepoy

[Toby Brayley]

3rd (Militia) Battalion, Dorset Regiment, 1906.

 

Just in.  A perfect example of why I love this transitional era.  The mix of equipment and uniform depicted here is superb. It is postmarked 1906, the presence of the peaked SD caps back this up! 

 

Very late use of the Jampot cuff pre-1902 Frock (still with white facings), Victorian era leggings, Brodrick cap (that has the Grass Green "backing patch" of the Dorsets?), covered brodrick caps, the "new" peaked Service Dress Cap and Lee Metford MK1*/MLEs. Nearly everyone is dressed different!  

 

What a glorious mess!

 

Edited 31 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Nice Toby, but a desert in respect of badges ....... no rank, no Trade" no re-engagement, no campaign ribbons.

Even the drummer is without a badge, just his green cords.

[Toby Brayley]

35 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Nice Toby, but a desert in respect of badges ....... no rank, no Trade" no re-engagement, no campaign ribbons.

Even the drummer is without a badge, just his green cords.

 

That is true and surprising, but there is at least a single pair of DORSET 3 Titles! 

[Peter35]

Regarding the progenitor of the Brodrick Cap: this, for what it’s worth:

 

 

 

Cox, BW & Prevezer, M, The Brodrick Cap, JSAHR, 1982, Vol LX, Winter, No 244, (pp 213 – 225), p 213

Edited 2 February , 2020 by Peter35

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Peter35 said:

Regarding the progenitor of the Brodrick Cap: this, for what it’s worth:

 

 

 

Cox, BW & Prevezer, M, The Brodrick Cap, JSAHR, 1982, Vol LX, Winter, No 244, (pp 213 – 225), p 213

Hello Peter, thank you for posting that reference.  It is definitely what I’d read before, but I’d mixed up my Kings when I mentioned King George V.  It was of course Edward VII, who fitted the bill for the time frame concerned. He was a keen sailor too, in his youth if I recall correctly.

[Toby Brayley]

Royal Artillery types, Postcard sent in 1910.  

 

Nice to see the R.A Bandmaster and a Sergeant Major who has a DCM. The Bandmaster is from a TF unit, judging by the lack of Proficiency/Efficiency stars and the RHA Signal instructor I think they are a mix of units on a course, not all TF. There is a Queen's Sudan Medal and a couple of Queen's South Africa medals. Note the use of the QVC this late. 

Edited 10 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Superb view of the First Class tunics with their heavy gold cord decoration as worn by RA warrant officers. Thank you for sharing, Toby.  It’s interesting, too, to see the white cap covers that when introduced for commissioned officers (I think in 1904) were extended to warrant officers and, visual evidence suggests, regimental bands.

 

NB.  The RA Bandmaster’s hint of a beard below his lower lip is something that I’ve never seen before, and almost certainly breached Queen’s/King’s Regulations, if I recall correctly.  If so, it is extremely unusual for a regular. 

Edited 10 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Superb view of the First Class tunics with their heavy gold cord decoration as worn by RA warrant officers. 

 

I thought you might like! Its also interesting to see the version usually worn by the VF/TF that had standard shoulder straps rather than the gold cord, for their embroidered and later metal shoulder titles. Also note the large size of the gun badges backing cloth!