Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Muerrisch]

I agree that we are not going to squeeze much more juice out of this but I can assure you that  a detailed establishment for BBCs appears in 1891 Vol Regs. Includes about 60 R&F.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I agree that we are not going to squeeze much more juice out of this but I can assure you that  a detailed establishment for BBCs appears in 1891 Vol Regs. Includes about 60 R&F.

I’ve never doubted the establishments.  It was a matter of making sense of the insignia, which has still not been achieved.

[Toby Brayley]

Here is a treat for Monday morning. Large mounted photograph of NCOs from the Weymouth College Royal Engineer Cadets, 1892. Scanned in at 1200 DPI for your enjoyment.

Lots to see here, Martini Henry rifles, Yataghan bayonets and and unusual combination of 1871, 1882 and 1888 leather equipment! The Quartermaster Serjeant (why I can justify its inclusion here) has the Egypt Medal and the Khedive's star. They wear the RE style Frock that I posted in the thread back in December, that is often confused for the RMLI frock.

 

Edited 20 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

What a super photo, thank you for posting it.  It’s good to see an example of an RE QMS rank badge, as introduced in 1881.  It can often be overlooked that, unlike the RA gun badge equivalent, the RE did not start wearing their grenade arm badge until that year.  The youth and enthusiasm of the cadets in the photo is palpable.

Edited 20 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

27 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Here is a treat for Monday morning. Large mounted photograph of NCOs from the Weymouth College Royal Engineer Cadets, 1892. Scanned in at 1200 DPI for your enjoyment.

Lots to see here, Martini Henry rifles, Yataghan bayonets and and unusual combination of 1871, 1882 and 1888 leather equipment! The Quartermaster Serjeant (why I can justify its inclusion here) has the Egypt Medal and the Khedive's star. They wear the RE style Frock that I posted in the thread back in December, that is often confused for the RMLI frock.

 

I love the bowed scabbards of the two kneeling men at the ends of the row, the viewers right one the most!

 

Edited 20 January , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[Toby Brayley]

59 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 the bowed scabbards 

 

 

Me too! They were very prone to snapping and the later P1876 especially so, an internal stiffener was put in place. 

[Ron Clifton]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

However, this still doesn’t explain why the Welsh Border Brigade Bearer Company helmet plate, which is clearly not ‘regimental insignia’, has a Queen Victoria crown that unequivocally indicates a pre-1902 date.

I know we have moved on a bit since yesterday, but here is my twopence worth.

 

Helmets are "public clothing", issued to the man and returned by him when he left, or they were replaced after a set number of years. It is possible that these helmets were not modified in 1901/2, but left unaltered until they came to be replaced.

 

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

I know we have moved on a bit since yesterday, but here is my twopence worth.

 

Helmets are "public clothing", issued to the man and returned by him when he left, or they were replaced after a set number of years. It is possible that these helmets were not modified in 1901/2, but left unaltered until they came to be replaced.

 

Ron

Yes, Ron, I do understand that obsolescent clothing and equipment was often ‘worn out’, it was ever the case when it came to publicly funded items, but it doesn’t answer the query.  Bearer companies were not initially brigaded it seems, but regimental bodies wearing regimental insignia, formed in around 1889.  Ergo helmet plates were ostensibly regimental insignia and with no mention of a Brigade.  According to Westlake the companies were brigaded and badged RAMC in 1905.  How does all that square with a Welsh Border Brigade Bearer Company helmet plate (i.e. not regimental) with a pre-1902 Queen Victoria crown? 

[Muerrisch]

Provisional Regs VF 1901 paragraph 851.

 

where a distinctive uniform is worn by brigade bearer companies it will  follow the Volunteer Medical Staff Corps in all particulars

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Provisional Regs VF 1901 paragraph 851.

 

where a distinctive uniform is worn by brigade bearer companies it will  follow the Volunteer Medical Staff Corps in all particulars

Thank you Muerrisch, I think that might offer an answer.  It implies that there were two types of bearer company, one type that was regimentally dressed, as per Toby’s photograph, and one dressed as per the ostensibly separate (see details posted earlier) Volunteer Medical Staff Corps (VMSC).  However, not even that makes complete sense because the VMSC wore a differently titled helmet plate, although it did have the exact same Red Cross centre.  It seems likely then that just the title circlet was different.  This can be seen in post # 1057.  We’ve got there in the end, so this can be put to bed I think.

Edited 20 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

I don't whether I enjoy the depth of knowledge more on this thread, or the courtesy exercised in discussion, or the fact that often it actually gets results. Anyway, have very much enjoyed this particular excursion into paraphernalic obscurity, despite the rather esoteric focus - it's been a bit like watching a superbly-sung opera in Mongolian, at times. Thank you, folks. Also, more specific thanks to Toby for another glimpse of Yataghan bayonets which are things of wonder (with or without bendy scabbards).

 

 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

Thank you I think!

 

I too have a thing about the Yataghans, stemming from the discovery that sergeants and above had them in the time of the Zulu war, whereas the rank and file had the spike lungers. My little 25mm war game sergeants had the correct bends imposed!

[Sepoy]

8 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Here is a treat for Monday morning. Large mounted photograph of NCOs from the Weymouth College Royal Engineer Cadets, 1892. Scanned in at 1200 DPI for your enjoyment.

Lots to see here, Martini Henry rifles, Yataghan bayonets and and unusual combination of 1871, 1882 and 1888 leather equipment! The Quartermaster Serjeant (why I can justify its inclusion here) has the Egypt Medal and the Khedive's star. They wear the RE style Frock that I posted in the thread back in December, that is often confused for the RMLI frock.

 

Great photo Toby!

I assume the QM Sgt has an Egypt Medal; Khedive's Star and Army LSGC, but more interesting, he is also wearing a Royal Humane Society Medal (life saving) on his right chest.

Sepoy

 

[Toby Brayley]

15 hours ago, Sepoy said:

 

 

Thank you! Best I could do with the medals. 

 

 

So Egypt Medal Khedive's Star and the LSGC.  Thank you for IDing the life saving medal. 

 

regards

Toby

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

No 4 Section, K Company 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Norfolk regiment. "Winners of the Morse Challenge Cup" 1889. Large Mounted and named photograph. Thanks to @FROGSMILE for the heads up on this one.  Crystal clear detail. 

 

Bugler Mills. 

 

Private Rampling. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting to see the enlarged view of the old pattern bugler’s badge.  interestingly that pattern remained the style favoured by the Royal Navy for its buglers.
The Red Cross badge seems to indicate men who have undergone the requisite special training and are allocated to the bearer sub-unit within the VB.

Edited 21 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rob carman]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

 

Toby,

The capital letters in the scannerd legend shown on the badge forum are hard to read.  Can you decipher the  men's names any the easier on the original?  I can ID the sjt with the VLSM and possibly the chap standing behind him as well as Rampling and Garrod but none of the others.  I would be grateful for a best guess at any of the names not mentioned above? 

Rob.

Edited 21 January , 2020 by rob carman

[Muerrisch]

Section indeed ..... top heavy with sergeants muscling in.

 

Lovely to see such detail of drummers'/ buglers crown and inch lace, which came in two widths, the narrower can be seen on cuff detail.

[Sepoy]

3 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Thank you! Best I could do with the medals. 

 

 

So Egypt Medal Khedive's Star and the LSGC.  Thank you for IDing the life saving medal. 

 

regards

Toby

 

 

Here is an example of a Royal Humane Society Medal (Bronze).

It is a pity that we don't know the name of the QM Sgt because some of these medals have interesting citations.

Sepoy

[Dave1418]

6 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

No 4 Section, K Company 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Norfolk regiment. "Winners of the Morse Challenge Cup" 1889. Large Mounted and named photograph. Thanks to @FROGSMILE for the heads up on this one.  Crystal clear detail. 

 

Bugler Mills. 

 

Private Rampling. 

 

Unusual belt configuration on the bearer and the Colour Sgt behind him. As the left side return is stitched on the outside of the belt and is devoid of a slider

[Muerrisch]

 

 

The bewhiskered gent seated left appears to be a Conductor AOC. If so, a rare bird indeed. Comments please.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

The bewhiskered gent seated left appears to be a Conductor AOC. If so, a rare bird indeed. Comments please.

Yes, I believe so, at that time the crown in wreath was decreed for Conductors and, if I recall correctly, for a period his immediate inferior, the Sub Conductor (with both being warrant officers, but in ascending pay grades) had for a period at least no badge of rank, but the same uniform.  Key elements of the uniform were the first class tunic, and heavier gold lace decoration to cuffs and, most importantly, both tops and bottoms of collar.  In the case of your photo I think that all three of the AOC figures in the foreground are conductors, but one wears the 1895 patrol frock with heavily laced collar to indicate his status.  Unfortunately both men to the right of the figure with the conductors badge have their right sleeves out of shot, so we cannot see if they are conductors, or sub-conductors, who wouldn’t have had a badge anyway.  It’s an extraordinarily rare image to be added to that of the Armourer Sergeant.  
 

The date must be around 1905-1906, given the forage caps.  There is a need to check what year the sub-conductors were allocated a badge, but from memory only, I think it was as part and parcel of the badge changes induced by the introduction of a second class of warrant officer in 1915.  At that point the conductor was allotted a coat of arms within a wreath of laurels (as was his equivalent in the ASC, the first class staff sergeant major), and the sub-conductor a plain coat of arms (along with others of equivalent grade including RSM, and staff sergeant majors ASC, and Army Pay Corps).  Quarter master sergeants of all arms were allotted the badge of a crown within laurel wreath that was formerly (1881-1915) the exclusive preserve of the conductor.

 

NB.  The above needs corroboration from reference material, as I’m temporarily relying on memory only.

Edited 21 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Sub conductors badge "by" 1904, a crown. Unusually, I do not have a definitive proof.

 

The weird arrangement of 1915 is more exciting. Crown and wreath senior to Royal Arms indeed.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Sub conductors badge "by" 1904, a crown. Unusually, I do not have a definitive proof.

 

The weird arrangement of 1915 is more exciting. Crown and wreath senior to Royal Arms indeed.

 

Thank you, that corroborates matters nicely.  It’s such a pity that the right sleeves of the two right hand AOC figures cannot be seen, as it’s impossible to tell if the two of them are conductors or sub-conductors, as things stand.

 

NB.  It seems to have been significant to the composer of the shot that all five men (two RA and three AOC) have the requisite status to be dressed in first class garments (four tunics, one frock).  Interestingly the conductor has the older pattern tunic with a rounded front to his collar, whereas his colleague seated immediately adjacent has the new pattern with square cut collar.  It’s a superb snapshot in time of those first few years after the 2nd Boer War.

Edited 21 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

15 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

Unusual belt configuration on the bearer and the Colour Sgt behind him. As the left side return is stitched on the outside of the belt and is devoid of a slider

 

I noticed that! Very odd, they might be converted earlier patterns?

 

20 hours ago, rob carman said:

  I would be grateful for a best guess at any of the names not mentioned above? 

Rob.

 

Here you go Rob, My best shot, the Ink is rather faded

 

Rear Row: Bugler Mills, Prvt E Heathcote, Sergt G Reeman (section commander) , Corp F G??hill , Sergt S Moxey

Seated: Lieut F H Allen, Col Sergt E Soons, Prvt Whale

Seated on Floor: Prvt Garrod, Prvt Rampling. 

14 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

 

The bewhiskered gent seated left appears to be a Conductor AOC. If so, a rare bird indeed. Comments please.

 

That is brilliant,  is he wearing the Ashanti Star?