Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I thought you might like! Its also interesting to see the version usually worn by the VF/TF that had standard shoulder straps rather than the gold cord, for their embroidered and later metal shoulder titles. Also note the large size of the gun badges backing cloth!

Ah yes, I hadn’t appreciated that the Bandmaster is an auxiliary (TF), now I understand why he’s got away with an hirsute underlip.  Enlarging the photo on my phone I can see the 3-row shoulder title.  Good spot!
 

NB.  Presumably the SSgt standing far left is TF too.  Also, the sergeant major has the older, rounded front collar, whereas the bandmaster has the newer, square cut collar.  The photo is a veritable feast of features!

Edited 10 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Royal Artillery types, Postcard sent in 1910.  

 

Nice to see the R.A Bandmaster and a Sergeant Major who has a DCM. The Bandmaster is from a TF unit, judging by the lack of Proficiency/Efficiency stars and the RHA Signal instructor I think they are a mix of units on a course, not all TF. There is a Queen's Sudan Medal and a couple of Queen's South Africa medals. Note the use of the QVC this late. 

Interesting photograph.
It is also nice to see the seated Battery Sergeant Major on our far right wearing an Indian General Service Medal 1854 - 95 with clasp (or possibly an India Medal 1895 - 1902); a Third China War Medal with clasp; and an Army Long Service Good Conduct Medal.
I assume this photograph is un-named?
Sepoy

[Toby Brayley]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

NB.  Presumably the SSgt standing far left is TF too.  Also, the sergeant major has the older, rounded front collar, whereas the bandmaster has the newer, square cut collar.  The photo is a veritable feast of features!

 

I suspect he is, I can make out a small part of a brass ST, it is unusual they are both devoid of efficiency and proficiency stars though, although looking at photographs from this era (c1910+) the proficiency star doesn't seem to appear as much as it used to do. 

 

47 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

 wearing an Indian General Service Medal 1854 - 95 with clasp (or possibly an India Medal 1895 - 1902); a Third China War Medal with clasp; and an Army Long Service Good Conduct Medal.
I assume this photograph is un-named?
Sepoy

 

Sadly not a single name, good spot on the China War Medal, thank you. He has a single clasp on it, the line down the centre is a mark on the image and not part of the ribbon. quite an interesting bunch!  

 

Edited 10 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I suspect he is, I can make out a small part of a brass ST, it is unusual they are both devoid of efficiency and proficiency stars though, although looking at photographs from this era (c1910+) the proficiency star doesn't seem to appear as much as it used to do. 

Yes, I too, noticed that efficiency stars seemed to tail off within a few years of 1908, especially it seems in the artillery and service support corps.  The infantry seemed to hang on to them a little longer, especially among the older men of course.

Edited 10 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

TF Regulations 1908, 1910 and 1912 make no provision for the four-point proficiency star for SNCOs, and no mention of the one-year diamond.

 

The five-point star was retained for "efficient" men in 1908, and for  for "qualified" men in 1910, and in 1912, for each four years. I suspect that any changes in the wearing of the four-year stars leading up to [and into] the Great War may well be unit or even individual preference. I do not have any Army Orders or ACIs to be definitive.

 

Diamonds and four-point stars morphed into the Officer Cadet units, themselves formed in 1908. The stars denoted Cert A [Gold] and Cert B [Red]. More detail on these uses if asked for.

 

Thus, diamonds and four-point stars should [should!] not appear on TF uniforms .......... a crude and unreliable means of distinguishing dates.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

TF Regulations 1908, 1910 and 1912 make no provision for the four-point proficiency star for SNCOs, and no mention of the one-year diamond.

 

The five-point star was retained for "efficient" men in 1908, and for  for "qualified" men in 1910, and in 1912, for each four years. I suspect that any changes in the wearing of the four-year stars leading up to [and into] the Great War may well be unit or even individual preference. I do not have any Army Orders or ACIs to be definitive.

 

Diamonds and four-point stars morphed into the Officer Cadet units, themselves formed in 1908. The stars denoted Cert A [Gold] and Cert B [Red]. More detail on these uses if asked for.

 

Thus, diamonds and four-point stars should [should!] not appear on TF uniforms .......... a crude and unreliable means of distinguishing dates.

Thank you Muerrisch, that chimes neatly with our observations.

[Toby Brayley]

 

On 10/02/2020 at 15:06, Muerrisch said:

TF Regulations 1908, 1910 and 1912

 

Thank you, it  clears that one up! 

 

 

This interesting postcard is courtesy of John Laking,

via the British Army and Navy 1888-1914 Facebook group.   Interesting to see the 4 point star used for efficiency rather than the 5 point. The first time, as far as I can recall, that I have seen it. 

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Thank you, it  clears that one up! 

 

 

This interesting postcard is courtesy of John Laking,

via the British Army and Navy 1888-1914 Facebook group.   Interesting to see the 4 point star used for efficiency rather than the 5 point. The first time, as far as I can recall, that I have seen it. 

Yes, very interesting.  Thank you for posting.  They seem to be using titles, T-RE-LONDON, rather than T-SIGNALSERVICE.  It’s the first time I’ve seen the larger grenade badges favoured for blue (presumably) patrol frocks/jackets, and some of the SNCOs have them on SD too.  As a contrast the chap cross legged far left, has the newer, small grenade badge. 

Edited 12 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

The stars may be surplus stock, from VF days. If five-pointers were not readily available, why waste an asset?

As I said "a crude and unreliable means of dating".

[Toby Brayley]

55 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

As I said "a crude and unreliable means of dating".

 

Your original point still stands though  as there are technically no Proficiency Stars on display, where as a few years early there most certianly would have been on these chaps. As you say with there use no longer required perhaps they have been used in lieu of the 5 point. Can you recall ever seeing it before? 

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Your original point still stands though  as there are technically no Proficiency Stars on display, where as a few years early there most certianly would have been on these chaps. As you say with there use no longer required perhaps they have been used in lieu of the 5 point. Can you recall ever seeing it before? 

Absolute;y never.

[Toby Brayley]

Quite happy with this one.  A Private from the The Queen's, c1910.   Some nice details detail here; "Frock, Serge, Foreign Pattern", S in wreath scout badge worn by British and Indian soldiers  in India, crossed rifles, GC chevron and a distance judging star. It is not very often that the peaked forage cap makes an appearance in Indian studio photographs. 

Edited 13 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

A particularly fine pre-WW1 photo, Toby, thank you for posting it.

[Muerrisch]

The cap is unusual. I think the cap might not have been issued there. 

There was a complicated but rational agreement regarding part-used items of clothing for soldiers going from Home to India, and from India to Home. These were essentially that a soldier's clothing was to be used in the new posting for the part year of arrival before the local issue. This was principally "coats" but extended to headgear.

Clothing Regs India should answer this one, I will look tomorrow.

[Toby Brayley]

13 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The cap is unusual. I think the cap might not have been issued there. 

 

 

It is indeed, it threw me somewhat. I do have other images of the F.S frock with the peaked cap, but they are usually Gibraltar or Malta, not India.  That is of course if the image is India, my assumption was based on the FS Frock and India scout badge! 

 

Latest arrival, badges galore.  Nice to see the full array of VF efficiency/proficiency badges.

 

Even using the 1894 CRs I have struggled to identify his rank, is he one of the QMS, or being VF the Acting Serjeant Major? Thank you in advance.  The only regular equivalent rank  it corresponds to is "Quartermaster Serjeant - Instructor Manufacturing Department".

 

Edited 14 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

He’s a QMS, Toby, I believe the ASM had a large crown above the gun and 4-stripes.  There were a few QMS appointments in the RA, but not all had a special badge to indicate their function.

It’s a super picture, thank you for posting.

Edited 14 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a QMS, Toby, 

 

 Thank you, that was my initial thought , especially with the rank on one arm,  I thought that it might throw up another odd Vf/Tf rank.   Sadly there is no photographer location on the CDV, but there is a large embroidered title, that I cant quite make out! 

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

It is indeed, it threw me somewhat. I do have other images of the F.S frock with the peaked cap, but they are usually Gibraltar or Malta, not India.  That is of course if the image is India, my assumption was based on the FS Frock and India scout badge! 

 

Latest arrival, badges galore.  Nice to see the full array of VF efficiency/proficiency badges.

 

Even using the 1894 CRs I have struggled to identify his rank, is he one of the QMS, or being VF the Acting Serjeant Major? Thank you in advance.  The only regular equivalent rank  it corresponds to is "Quartermaster Serjeant - Instructor Manufacturing Department".

 

Brilliant photo!

Chris 

[Muerrisch]

Yes, QMS RANK,  with not necessarily any quartermaster role at all. This might be the highest echelon to which a VF man might aspire, given that unit sergeant majors were regulars. Regulations are not entirely clear on this, and unit practise might vary. 

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you, ahhh of course the ASM wouldn't have been entitled to the Stars etc!! Duh! 

Edited 14 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

The rank is indeed QMS in the well-before 1915 period concerned, and I did not mean to suggest anything different.  My point was that in the various branches of artillery at that time there were a variety of appointments that a QMS could hold, and that they did not always have a special badge to indicate their function. I hope that is sufficiently clear now.

Edited 14 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The rank is indeed QMS 

 

Yes thank you gents, I was annoyed at myself not remembering the ASM was a regular on attachment, thus he would not of had the prof/efficiency stars and lozenge.. And the obvious lack of crown! 

Edited 14 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

This one also arrived today. I purchased it purely for the RAMC (cherry on white) cloth titles, as I don't actually have a photographic example of regular RAMC titles, it also provides a fine study of the RAMC detachable shoulder boards.  There are actually some other very nice details, a mix of RE *edit now I.D as Royal Fusiliers R.F.) , RFA including Serjeant Major, and Staff Serjeants etc. I was hoping the seated chap, sans insignia, might be an AOC conductor?

 

 

 

What is this???

Edited 16 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Yet another superb snapshot in time, with a mouthwatering mixture of badges!  I’ve no idea what the star arm badge might be.  The man without badge of rank does have the look of a Conductor, but I think that both grades of Conductor had a badge by that time.  One appointment that did not wear a badge of rank was the Schoolmaster of regular units, although he invariably wore an RE style twisted shoulder cord.  I think that I can see the hint of a crown badge on his right arm only, which would, along with the rest of his uniform fit with a Conductor.  He is not wearing SD, which might be why he seems to have a badge on just his right forearm.

Edited 14 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

He is among staff sergeants ........ would a sub-conductor tolerate that?

They are seriously uptight about precedent.