Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

 

Post Office Rifles, Chingford, 1906. Sent by Rifleman Hoare to 'Florrie'. "What thinkest Thou of my 4.7 smile. It must have been the pork pie."

Not amazingly sharp or detailed, but thought I would share.

 

Regards,

Chris

 

Thank you for posting this image, Chris.  It gives a very good view of a rarely seen undress garment worn only by sergeants of the Rifle regiments ( especially the Rifle Brigade, which retained it longest it seems).  Almost certainly made up by unit Sergeant Tailors, because it does not exist in clothing regulations, or PVCNs, it was the last usage of a garment once common across line infantry SNCOs for use in barracks, and comprised a low collared, serge jacket, bound around the edges with mohair tape and, most significantly, fastened up the front with hooks and eyes.  It was in effect a SNCOs equivalent of an officers' patrol jacket.  I've often wondered if any have survived in dark vaults of the National Army, or Imperial War, or even Regimental Museums.  They were personal garments (thus not returned to store) and so very few, if any seem to have survived.

Edited 20 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

Glad it is of interest. Thanks for the info on the  ‘serge jacket’. Most interesting. I was certainly wondering about it. 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

Edited 20 February , 2020 by Drew-1918

[Jools mckenna]

Rather faded photo of men from a Buffs TF battalion. 

[Toby Brayley]

Here is a rather interesting unsent postcard! A Volunteer Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers. This image dates from c1905, with the wearing of the fixed shoulder strap Service Dress and the Service Dress cap.   Note the late use of a mix of P1882 and P1888 Valise Equipment, the mix of tunics including; 1902 Pattern with pointed cuff, pre-1902 pattern with "jampot" cuff and the Victorian style volunteer pattern tunic with cuff detail. They appear to have a brass shoulder title. 

 

Also note, what I can only assume is the distance judging star, being worn beneath the crossed rifles and on the left hand sleeve on the tunic, very rarely seen in wear with the VF/TF.

 

At first I thought it might be a mix of Regular and Vols, but I am sure they are all Vols, given the mix of valise equipment and the fact the all wear the VF piped breeches.

 

 

Edited 27 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

That is a cracker of a PC, Toby, just as you say.  One of the best that I’ve seen for some time because the items within it seem to epitomise that transitional period that it spans.  The different tunics are an example in case, but as you’ve pointed out, also the marksmanship badge that was hitherto a privilege of just regulars, with the VF having their own version.  I think you’re correct that it is the distance judging stat that’s set beneath. This image would be excellent as a book illustration.

 

NB.  I don’t think that regular soldiers of today do these ‘kit layouts’ anymore and yet they were once routine in the lives of generations of British soldiers, regular and auxiliary, everywhere.

 

 

Edited 27 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

VF soldiers could qualify for the a X muskets badges "when the Corps as a whole goes through the Line course of Musketry .......those Volunteers who have qualified as marksmen to wear the badge" As to whether it was identical to that of the Line. I know not.

 

That is VF Regs para 882 of 1878, repeated in 1881. I can check later editions but I think a privilege, once granted, would not be willingly given up.

 

I doubt very much if many achieved the badge, hence scarcity of photos.

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

VF soldiers could qualify for the a X muskets badges "when the Corps as a whole goes through the Line course of Musketry .......those Volunteers who have qualified as marksmen to wear the badge" As to whether it was identical to that of the Line. I know not.

 

That is VF Regs para 882 of 1878, repeated in 1881. I can check later editions but I think a privilege, once granted, would not be willingly given up.

 

I doubt very much if many achieved the badge, hence scarcity of photos.

That’s interesting.  What were the single horizontal rifle badges with a variety of additions like star (or crown?) for then? Wasn’t that also their marksman badge or was it just a prize badge?

Edited 27 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s interesting.  What were the single horizontal rifle badges with a variety of additions like star (or crown?) for then? Wasn’t that also their marksman badge or was it just a prize badge?

 

Principally for shooting restricted courses ...... distance wise or firing range wise. One star, two star, three star. No crown.

 

I'll scan and post the complete illustrated pages when I get to my scanner.

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Principally for shooting restricted courses ...... distance wise or firing range wise. One star, two star, three star. No crown.

 

I'll scan and post the complete illustrated pages when I get to my scanner.

 

Brilliant, thank you.  I have your book, just not immediately to hand.  As you pointed out, the crossed rifles are rarely seen on a VF/VB uniform other than the Sergeant Musketry Instructor (a regular or course), but seems to have become more common in the TF.  There are some illustrations here: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/marksman.htm

Edited 27 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

A recent addition, a bit out of scope for the thread but interesting reference. 

 

A small CDV of a Sussex based Rifle Volunteer. For once, the reverse reveals who is featured in the photograph.  

"Taken in Brighton 24th March 1883. Lewis Westbrook Hind. The white band on the left arm means defending force".

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I think he’s probably from the 1st Cinque Ports Rifle Volunteers Corps.

[Muerrisch]

IMG_20200228_0002.pdf IMG_20200228_0003.pdf

 

The pages from 1878 VF Regs.

1881 same but different para numbers.

Edited 28 February , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

IMG_20200228_0002.pdf 3.17 MB · 0 downloads IMG_20200228_0003.pdf 2.39 MB · 0 downloads

 

Thank you.  Useful for reference.

[Toby Brayley]

Cabinet Card of an unknown bandsmen, taken in Egypt c1905. Nice to see the large style King's Crown bandsmen badge worn on the Khaki Drill Frock. He has the Queen's South Africa Medal ribbon and there is a brass shoulder title, but sadly I can't quite make it out.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I think it might be the BORDER Regiment title, Toby, but it’ll be interesting to see what others come up with, as I’m using a phone screen.  I think it’s a picture taken after 1902, as the chevrons seem to be a later type comprising of herringbone tape.  If so it suggests that the bandsman’s badge is the drab type.

Edited 4 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think it might be the BORDER Regiment title,

 

 

 

 

I would agree with that, Its an odd angle and I just can't make out anything conclusive. 

 

Here is another bandsman, also taken in Egypt. The crossed rifles with the Gehlpic Crown (as discussed previous) makes a welcome appearance.  Once again there is a shoulder title that is begging to be identified. All my mind can see is HERTS but that would not be correct, or perhaps BERKS? 

 

 

[Dragoon]

8 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

HERTS but that would not be correct, or perhaps BERKS? 

 

 

 

 

I can make out a 'B' at the beginning, I'm going with BERKS

 

 

Chris 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a tough call, but after lengthy scrutiny I’m plumping for HERTS, because the first letter seems to have a gap at the top suggesting that it is an H, rather than a B.  However, the HERTS were a TF Regiment and so to start with at least I would have expected to see a T.  I’m also unclear whether the HERTS had a band, or would have had access to crossed rifles with a Guelphic crown.  It was also a long time ago since the ROYAL BERKS used a simple BERKS title.  After being made Royal they used either ROYAL.BERKS or R.BERKS.

 

Edited 4 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

And would the HERTS, a TF unit be in India C1905?

[Robin Garrett]

According to Wikipedia, 1 Border was in England from 1902 to 1908 and then in India until 1915. 2 Border was in India and Burma 1890–1905 (Bareilly until late 1902, then Thayetmyo in Burma)

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Robin Garrett said:

According to Wikipedia, 1 Border was in England from 1902 to 1908 and then in India until 1915. 2 Border was in India and Burma 1890–1905 (Bareilly until late 1902, then Thayetmyo in Burma)

I think that units in Malta might have for a period provided the garrison in Egypt so I’d be interested to examine the specific distribution of the 2nd Battalion Border Regiment between 1881 and 1890.

Edited 4 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Robin Garrett]

Further refinement. 1 Borders was in Malta in 1897, see https://thelonsdalebattalion.co.uk/wiki/1st_Battalion_(Regular_Army)_Border_Regiment. However, if you read the "Call to Arms" paragraphs, which below the table describe the battalion's journey from Bombay to UK, you will see the following:

 

"For the first part of the voyage the transport ships were escorted by the Northbrook and the French cruiser Suffren; for the second part by the Eclispe. There were several ports of call along the way including Aden, Suez, Port Said and Malta and upon reaching Gibraltar, a five day stay was taken in so that further transports coming from China could be collected". 

 

Could the photos have been taken at Suez or Port Said?

[FROGSMILE]

It seems quite possible if the photographic studio that produced the image had its main office in Alexandria, Robin.  Such studios did not always have embossed/printed cards for all their outstations, especially as they expanded.

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

And would the HERTS, a TF unit be in India C1905?

 

No that's true, Toby.  The Herts Regt were formed from VB in 1908.  There were some VBs deployed to imperial garrisons during the 2nd Boer War, but I think that they were probably all returned home by 1905.

[Toby Brayley]

I snapped this one up thinking, with the flaming grenades and the Mills Orndorff Equipment that it was Grenadier Guards. Once scanned it it becomes clear with the short two letter title,cap badge and Brodrick style that they are most likely Royal Fusiliers c1904.   They are clearly marching at ease, the mounted officer has a cigar on the go, and even a couple of ORs behind him are smoking. Interesting to see the signalers up front. The Sjt Major and another officer marching are also visible .