Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

Cracking photo, Toby.  One can really see how difficult it was to keep the slouch hat in good order, and one can imagine the justifications that must have been put up to request a proper forage cap for dress in the field.

[Muerrisch]

Lovely. Once again we see unofficial wearing of the Geneva Cross by NCOs of infantry [unless by a long shot they are RAMC attached, belied by cuff facing etc].

I have never seen it sanctioned, but it seems a sensible way to denote those with some medical training and responsibility. I assume that they would not wear the Geneva armlet, because it carries protection. 

 

[Toby Brayley]

Once again it is with the VF, as we saw in a previous post, with the well equipped tent etc. They are well kitted out as "Medical Staff" which would suggest more than just stretcher bearers. 

Edited 16 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

12 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Once again it is with the VF, as we saw in a previous post, with the well equipped tent etc. They are well kitted out as "Medical Staff" which would suggest more than just stretcher bearers. 

 

Not so much overkill as overwell.

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Lovely. Once again we see unofficial wearing of the Geneva Cross by NCOs of infantry [unless by a long shot they are RAMC attached, belied by cuff facing etc].

I have never seen it sanctioned, but it seems a sensible way to denote those with some medical training and responsibility. I assume that they would not wear the Geneva armlet, because it carries protection. 

 

They are indeed RAMC Volunteers.  A scheme was set up so that each auxiliary (Volunteer) brigade had a detachment of RAMC volunteers who were there specifically to support the infantry battalions.  These were the embryos that later (after 1908) became the TF County Field Ambulances.

Edited 16 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

But wearing the uniforms/insignia of the unit they are attached to, rather than the RAMC?   

 

On the subject of non RAMC personnel wearing the Geneva Cross. Way back in the thread Mike H posted this beauty! Post #202. 

 

 

 

Edited 16 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

On 1 April 1885, the Volunteer Medical Staff Corps (VMSC) was ‘gazetted’ with a constitution of four companies, an Adjutant, Quartermaster and Surgeon Commandant. This last was a new title conferred on its founder James Cantlie who was at the time a supernumerary assistant surgeon with the rank of Lieutenant in the London Scottish Volunteers. 

The Volunteer Corps had been authorised by the War Office on 12 May 1859, with each Volunteer Rifle Company having a section of stretcher bearers.
 

Under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act of 1907, the Volunteer Organisations ceased to exist on 31 March 1908, when the VMSC became the Royal Army Medical Corps (Territorial Force).

 

“In the Volunteer Army of Queen Victoria's times there was at first no authorised medical establishment; however, the Volunteer Infantry Brigades raised Bearer Companies in support of the Regiments (VIBBC). The Commanding Officer of a Volunteer Infantry Brigade Bearer Company was a doctor in local practice, the men trained to St John Ambulance Brigade Standards.”

Note:  These VIBBC men wore their own ‘bearer company’ insignia and a Geneva Red Cross as seen in your photos.

 

“Volunteer Medical Staff Corps“ 

“In 1883, Mr James Cantlie formed a Volunteer Bearer Company from the medical students at Charing Cross Hospital (where he was Assistant Surgeon) having seen the drill standards of the VIBBCs. It had followed an invitation to give lectures on first aid to a Volunteer Ambulance class in March 1882, where the instructor in stretcher drill was Sergeant Maclure of the London Scottish Volunteers.

This was followed by a second company raised by J E Squires at University College Hospital. Other companies were rapidly raised at The London, St Bartholomew's, The Middlesex, St Thomas's, Guy's and St Mary's Hospitals. By 1884 there were about 300 personnel (in five London Companies) all uniformed at their own expense (the joining fee was 10 shillings with a further annual subscription of 10 shillings) and awaiting Official Recognition. The officers of the ‘Hospital' Volunteer Medical Staff Corps (VMSC) were surgeons and clinicians with the other ranks medical students with the exception of Birkbeck College (the other ranks consisted of ‘lay' people with no medical pre-knowledge).  

Further VMSC Companies were raised all over the country with Edinburgh, Glasgow, Woolwich, Manchester, Maidstone, Leeds, Aberdeen and Norwich following Mr Cantlie's lead. The VMSC was officially recognised in April 1885 when J Cantlie was commissioned as Surgeon Commandant, and JH Casson, WH Platt, WE Raw, JE Squires and EW Willett were commissioned into the new Corps as Surgeons in June 1885.  

The VIBBC and the VMSC were completely separate organisations and should not be confused with each other.”

Edited 16 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They are indeed RAMC Volunteers.  A scheme was set up so that each auxiliary (Volunteer) brigade had a detachment of RAMC volunteers who were there specifically to support the infantry battalions.  These were the embryos that later (after 1908) became the TF County Field Ambulances.

 

I can see that they might be RAMC but the uniforms are infantry [as far as we can see] except for the Geneva Cross. If RAMC either these men had two uniforms, or they never paraded in regimentals.

Strange set up.

[Toby Brayley]

They are certianly are wearing the uniforms of the East Lancs.  Cap badge on FS cap and roses on the collars of their frocks. 

 

 

Edited 16 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, I could see the regimental insignia, I was erroneously looking only at the man in dark jacket on the floor so apologies for the confusion. The organisation of the Bearer Companies was pretty clear pre-1907/08 and the formation of the TF.  The only thing I can think is that the regulation to wear bearer company insignia was changed to be that of the regiment supported.  More research needed, but the organisational details I posted are kosher.

A key point is that the VF/TF operated differently with regards to supporting medical staff and had personnel wearing Geneva Red Cross who were not Royal Army Medical Corps.

 

Afternote - This written in connection with auxiliary forces of Hampshire:

 

 “the Brigade Bearer Company formed at Sutton Scotney from the 1st VB Bearers was one of the oldest established Bearer units to be converted to Territorial RAMC. “

 

Conclusion - The above implies that VBs had their own bearer sections (presumably regimentally badges) that were then brigaded with other battalion sections to create the ‘Brigade Bearer Companies’.  These latter then formed the TF Field Ambulances RAMC in 1908.

Edited 16 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Which was my point upstream. Still, we have learned something. The wearing of the badge by non-RAMC persisted into the Great War, and possibly by regular soldiers. I will have a look at my archive.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Which was my point upstream. Still, we have learned something. The wearing of the badge by non-RAMC persisted into the Great War, and possibly by regular soldiers. I will have a look at my archive.

Yes, you did mention regimentally badged bearers, but all bearer insignia that I’ve found refers to Brigade Bearer Companies and that did not at first square with the relatively late period of Toby’s photograph.  The conclusion has to be that the changes took place sequentially over a very short span of time.  There’s still more detail to be learned about the change from regimental insignia, the chronology of the timeline is not yet entirely clear.

Edited 17 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Some facts from Volunteer Force Regulations 1901 provisional [as close to likely date of photo as we will get].

 

brief summary of relevant paragraphs@

 

30. members of the bearer company of the brigade will continue to be members of their own unit.

 

but

 

851. where a distinctive uniform is worn by brigade bearer companies it will  follow the Volunteer Medical Staff Corps in all particulars

 

875. the badge [I take this as arm badge as it is in section solely re. arm badges]] of brigade bearer companies and  Volunteer Medical Staff Corps will be as RAMC [sic] but edging silver for NCOs rather than gold etc etc [I take this to be Geneva Cross].

 

875 continued. certificated stretchers bearers, two per company, will wear SB red/blue entwined in red circle, and armlet SB when engaged on those duties.

 

I regret that I have been unable to purchase Volunteer Force Regulations 1901 [later than provisional] yet

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Some facts from Volunteer Force Regulations 1901 provisional [as close to likely date of photo as we will get].

 

brief summary of relevant paragraphs@

 

30. members of the bearer company of the brigade will continue to be members of their own unit.

 

but

 

851. where a distinctive uniform is worn by brigade bearer companies it will  follow the Volunteer Medical Staff Corps in all particulars

 

875. the badge [I take this as arm badge as it is in section solely re. arm badges]] of brigade bearer companies and  Volunteer Medical Staff Corps will be as RAMC [sic] but edging silver for NCOs rather than gold etc etc [I take this to be Geneva Cross].

 

875 continued. certificated stretchers bearers, two per company, will wear SB red/blue entwined in red circle, and armlet SB when engaged on those duties.

 

I regret that I have been unable to purchase Volunteer Force Regulations 1901 [later than provisional] yet

Thank you, that all makes sense and is useful to put things into some perspective. So far all that I have been able to find suggests that the transition to Brigade Bearer Companies took place actually during the 2nd Anglo/Boer war, but that completely contradicts Brigade Bearer insignia with the Queen Victoria Crown so the situation is still unclear.

Edited 17 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Brigade bearer companies were at least as old as 1890 ...... I will have a look at my earlier VF Regs over the weekend.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Brigade bearer companies were at least as old as 1890 ...... I will have a look at my earlier VF Regs over the weekend.

That will be the crux of matters.  Perhaps there were regimental and infantry brigade bearers simultaneously, which would explain the insignia of both types, but at the moment it still seems unclear.

[Muerrisch]

VF Regs.

 

1891 brigade bearer companies estabs described. Men to remain of own unit, . no badges mentioned.

1895 ditto. Members to wear Geneva badge, regimental stretchers bearers SB badge,

1897 ditto ditto

1901 described above.

 

Militia Regs.

 

to follow.

 

Edited 19 January , 2020 by Muerrisch
emboldened

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

VF Regs.

 

1891 brigade bearer companies estabs described. Men to remain of own unit, . no badges mentioned.

1895 ditto. Members to wear Geneva badge, regimental stretchers bearers SB badge,

1897 ditto ditto

1901 described above.

 

Militia Regs.

 

to follow.

 

It does seem like the 2nd Boer War was the transition period then?

Edited 19 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It does seem like the 2nd Boer War was the transition period then?

 

Sorry I do not understand. War was well after transition to brigaded bearer companies. I think we are at cross purposes here/

[Muerrisch]

Militia Regs.

 

1880 no mention of bearers, stretchers, no badges for them or anything.

1889 Medical staff corps reservists to be trained in elementary [my noun] medical and then returned to unit. No badge mentioned.

1895 Ditto,Geneva cross worn.

 

Hope this gives a framework of regs. 

 

Conclusion: Geneva Cross or SB badge appearing in photos of auxiliary forces suggest c. 1895 or later.

Edited 19 January , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

Sorry I do not understand. War was well after transition to brigaded bearer companies. I think we are at cross purposes here/

I’m talking about when the infantry Brigade Bearer company (IBBC) insignia was adopted rather than unit regimental insignia.  I don’t see how the bearers could wear both sets of insignia simultaneously and the changeover date is what I thought we were trying to ascertain.  The Geneva Cross is not the issue as we already knew from photos that it was being worn.

Edited 19 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I have not been looking for Brigade Bearer Company insignia ..... I would not have recognised them if I tripped over them!

My interest was of course Geneva Cross and SB badges history.

 

Why do you think 1899-1902 is the date for BBC to be uniformed as such please?

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I have not been looking for Brigade Bearer Company insignia ..... I would not have recognised them if I tripped over them!

My interest was of course Geneva Cross and SB badges history.

 

Why do you think 1899-1902 is the date for BBC to be uniformed as such please?

in post # 1057 I posted an image (lowermost) as an example of the infantry brigade bearer company helmet insignia (that was entirely separate to the volunteer medical staff corps) and in post # 1062 I made the point that finding the date of changeover of insignia between regimental and brigade was key to understanding better the insignia in Toby’s photograph.  I had understood that you were perusing regulations to try and find that out....

 

The relevance of the date was twofold, first the historical mention in the details I posted of brigading the unit bearer sections into companies seemed to occur around the time of the Boer War and second, the infantry brigade bearer company insignia (helmet plates) have Queen Victoria crowns and so must (presumably?) have occurred before 1902, and thus during the war.  If the bearers had been in ‘regimental insignia’ then they should have been wearing ordinary regimental helmet plates!

Edited 19 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. At #1050 we have two sergeants in line infantry uniform wearing Geneva Crosses. The date must be close to 1902.

I think they are members of a Brigade bearer Company wearing their unit uniforms as per regulation. Do you agree please?

 

My research demonstrates that BBCs  are at least as old as 1891, not Second Boer War.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. At #1050 we have two sergeants in line infantry uniform wearing Geneva Crosses. The date must be close to 1902.

I think they are members of a Brigade bearer Company wearing their unit uniforms as per regulation. Do you agree please?

 

My research demonstrates that BBCs  are at least as old as 1891, not Second Boer War.

 

 

We are going in circles a bit now.  I don’t disagree at all that the photo at post # 1050 shows bearers in regimental uniform, and the style of uniform does indeed seem to suggest a date around the turn of the century, just before drab SD began to be universal.  

The issue I’ve been trying to resolve is the full dress, headwear insignia worn by Infantry Brigade Bearer Companies, which does not square with a regimental identity, as I hope that you can see.  Kipling and King refers.

 

In the following link referring to the Hereford RVC, which formed a VB of the KSLI, it states that a bearer company was formed in 1889, but that it constituted part of another company, as there was no official establishment for it.  It then says that it was not until 1905 that it was given a separate and discrete existence as an Infantry “Brigade” Bearer Company, badged to the RAMC.  See:  https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F7y__ACbNigC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=formation+of+brigade+bearer+companies+in+the+volunteer+force&source=bl&ots=VWk0wsG-cN&sig=ACfU3U08soMvbBoQ1nIWmrOd6h4hbRTxTA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXlJ37jonnAhVaUhUIHdiACNsQ6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=formation of brigade bearer companies in the volunteer force&f=false

The above information makes the change over from regimental badges to corps badges clearer, and definitive, as 1905.  However, this still doesn’t explain why the Welsh Border Brigade Bearer Company helmet plate, which is clearly not ‘regimental insignia’, has a Queen Victoria crown that unequivocally indicates a pre-1902 date.

Edited 20 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE