22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[JPJamie]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 12:21, abowell97 said:

 

 

This is what I've got so far, it may help, may not, but it gives a more visual representation of where the 22nd Bty visited. It seems a good place to compile images of locations and see them on a map, adding details of dates and activities etc. So far I just put all the locations I have photos of.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PGZtYt1k_Wucys39w_fuVFlzfX4&usp=sharing

 

 

At the moment, it's only view-able through that link, though if anyone wants, it can be made collaboration, any of us could edit it and add our own photos and information about each location. Just puts all locations, images, dates and info in one place.

 

Thanks,

Alex. 

 

 

Yes Alex!  Been busy last few days at work (12 hour shifts).

That link has great potential. 

 

Jim

[david murdoch]

22 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Dowie's officers pfile is available in TNA. It includes his original soldier attestation paperwork, as well as his commissioning application and his protection certificate. I can send you photos if you want. Looks like he had an attestation interview in may in dundee and then travelled to Bisley, formally enlisting 2Jun 15. Looks as if he lied about his age, he gives dob as 26 Sep 1892 (I have 1895?). He gives his occupation as bank teller. Commissioned HLI 18 or 19 Aug 1918 and transfered to MGC(M) 18 Nov 18. He clearly never left India claiming to be an ACapt with  11 Armoured Motor Battery. Discharged 18th Mar 1920.

Paul. If you could send me this information by mail would be great. I'm interested in him as I lived just a short way from where he was from and been around the same roads on a motorbike! I will check more on 11th AMB. There were a number involved in 3rd Afghan war, and I saw by the roll there were a number of early MMGS personnel serving with them. I don't have him having a GSM/clasp, but he may be on the officers roll for that.

[abowell97]

I don't have any photos of Shimla, though I have several from Kasauli "Looking towards Shimla",

so maybe it was there in the region they stopped, and not Shimla itself. 

 

Couple more images: 

MMGS Card that was amongst the photos, no writing.

 

"Jhelum River, Kashmir. Showing Major Maloney's house boat."

 

Side note, the map is now able to be edited by anyone using the link 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PGZtYt1k_Wucys39w_fuVFlzfX4&usp=sharing

so any pictures, dates, locations or details that anyone has can be added.

 

Hope this helps,

Alex. 

 

 

[JPJamie]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 05:47, abowell97 said:

I don't have any photos of Shimla, though I have several from Kasauli "Looking towards Shimla",

so maybe it was there in the region they stopped, and not Shimla itself. 

 

Couple more images: 

MMGS Card that was amongst the photos, no writing.

 

"Jhelum River, Kashmir. Showing Major Maloney's house boat."

 

Side note, the map is now able to be edited by anyone using the link 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PGZtYt1k_Wucys39w_fuVFlzfX4&usp=sharing

so any pictures, dates, locations or details that anyone has can be added.

 

Hope this helps,

Alex. 

 

 

 

Alex: I added a few images: One of the Black Hole of Calcutta Memorial, before the memorial was removed to a church graveyard.  Also added one at Sunnybank.  Can't figure out how to insert a camera icon, but it seems that can be done, because there are icons on the map.   

 

UPDATE: I think I figured out how to add an image.  You need to sign on, then EDIT, then click on marker, then click when you want the maker to be on the map.  I didn't upload an image, but I think you can then change to icon to the green camera.  It takes a bit of fiddling around as usual to "finger" out just what's going on. 

Edited 23 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

UPDATE: I think I figured out how to add an image.  You need to sign on, then EDIT, then click on marker, then click when you want the maker to be on the map.  I didn't upload an image, but I think you can then change to icon to the green camera.  It takes a bit of fiddling around as usual to "finger" out just what's going on. 

I think you can set the colour and logo to anything, I just did that to differentiate the sight-seeing locations from the active service ones. Just need to determine which locations were purely for sightseeing, active service, or a mix of both. 

 

[JPJamie]

39 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

I think you can set the colour and logo to anything, I just did that to differentiate the sight-seeing locations from the active service ones. Just need to determine which locations were purely for sightseeing, active service, or a mix of both. 

 

 OK good and you are thinking along the same lines.   I'm wondering if we could have separate layers for sight-seeing, locations and pictures? 

[JPJamie]

Grandfather wrote: "Khyber Pass during Afghan Operation July 1918"

 

Look at all those horses!

Paul we have a 1918 date for this.

[abowell97]

5 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Look at all those horses!

Paul we have a 1918 date for this.

What a photo! That's a fantastic shot.

I don't have many photos that are dated, and those that are, are either '16 or '17, I'll try to add the rough location on the map with the date.

 

This looks like a huge operation though, so it could, and indeed probably was, documented somewhere.

I wonder if the 22nd Battery took part in any active combat or skirmishes against tribal infringements on the NWF border in the years leading up to the 3rd Afghan War, as I've read that small tribal activities in the region weren't uncommon. 

Regards,

Alex.

[pjwmacro]

3 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

What a photo! That's a fantastic shot.

I don't have many photos that are dated, and those that are, are either '16 or '17, I'll try to add the rough location on the map with the date.

 

This looks like a huge operation though, so it could, and indeed probably was, documented somewhere.

I wonder if the 22nd Battery took part in any active combat or skirmishes against tribal infringements on the NWF border in the years leading up to the 3rd Afghan War, as I've read that small tribal activities in the region weren't uncommon. 

Regards,

Alex.

 

Alex - you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Great shot Jim. Definately a lit of horses - but you need to keep in mind that there were lots of cavalry regiments -both Indian and British - and they were all mounted not mechanised. And there were machine gun corps (cavalry) squadrons as well, which also took part in the fighting on the NWF and the 3rd Afghan War.

In terms of specific operations on the Khyber in Jul 1918 I am not aware of them, but as Alex says, the tribes on the NWF were kicking off all the time - it was a dangerous place, and I am sure 22 Bty would have seen its share of action when patrolling up there. But i'll do some google to see if I can come up with something more specific for Jul18 - because this certainly looks like a pretty major operation.

Best Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-21 at 17:49, david murdoch said:

Paul. If you could send me this information by mail would be great. I'm interested in him as I lived just a short way from where he was from and been around the same roads on a motorbike! I will check more on 11th AMB. There were a number involved in 3rd Afghan war, and I saw by the roll there were a number of early MMGS personnel serving with them. I don't have him having a GSM/clasp, but he may be on the officers roll for that.

David, done. Would love to see the report re his speeding fine at some stage!

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-22 at 11:47, abowell97 said:

 

On 2017-7-22 at 11:47, abowell97 said:

 

"Jhelum River, Kashmir. Showing Major Maloney's house boat."

Hope this helps,

Alex. 

 

 

Alex

My grandfathers album also has photos of lakes in Kashmir. I need to check for dates. Not sure why they might have been there - unless it was used as some sort of R&R  centre? And curious that the OC had his own houseboat!

[abowell97]

29 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

My grandfathers album also has photos of lakes in Kashmir. I need to check for dates. Not sure why they might have been there - unless it was used as some sort of R&R  centre? And curious that the OC had his own houseboat!

Not sure either... They must've been there for more than a few days if Major Maloney went as far as to requisition a house-boat, maybe a week at least... As you said, could've just been a R&R area, which seems most likely. I'll have a look at British army interests in Srinigar or Kashmir around that time.

Thanks,

Alex.

[david murdoch]

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

David, done. Would love to see the report re his speeding fine at some stage!

Best, Paul

Paul.

I'll get back to you on this - I have Dowie's birth certificate and marriage certificate and also childhood census returns - so will make up a little time line for him to get his dates straight.

Interesting in his commission application his first choice was for Tank Corps, so probably looking to get back in the war.

I need to check into Sgt William Welsh 1652 (one of the presumed members of 22nd) as he appears to have followed the same path, and he later sent in a claim for the GSM and for a Victory Medal. It's strange they both are listed as being commissioned in 2nd HLI as none of the HLI battalions were in India (Only 1st at the outbreak of war and they quickly headed back to Europe). He (Dowie) only appears to have been with HLI for a three month period - so this maybe corresponds to a period at officer training school (In India), and the HLI connection may have been purely an administrative exercise. Would be interesting to see if William Welsh's record is similar - and it will also confirm without doubt he was also in 22nd Battery.

[david murdoch]

I've added a couple of locations on the map - please check these are ok. One at Parachinar camp during 3rd Afghan war, and another at "Nicholson's Neck" - this one I've added original photo and current photo. Looks like should be able to insert link to historical background of the memorial. If these are good I will try the same with the carved rock photo at Kuldana.

Edited 26 July , 2017 by david murdoch

[abowell97]

21 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

I've added a couple of locations on the map - please check these are ok. One at Parachinar camp during 3rd Afghan war, and another at "Nicholson's Neck" - this one I've added original photo and current photo.

 

Thanks David! 

I have a couple of photos of Nicholson's Neck, though I couldn't find anywhere relating to that name. I assumed it was one of the John Nicholson memorials at Murree, based off the writing in the stone I could make out in one of the images, but I wasn't sure so I left it out. (The only place I could find of that name was in South Africa, which really confused me for a bit...)

Appreciate you finding it and adding it to the map though, I'll add my two pictures to yours when I get a chance. 

Thanks,

Alex. 

[JPJamie]

Just added the image of the Khyber Pass Operation 1918 to the map and of a "Camel Cart" in Agra. 

I'm getting the hang of the maps user interface.

Here's an image of what my Grandfather labeled "GPO Murree Hills."  Just discovered from a Google search, that this is the General Post Office.  Wondering if that building still exists to this day....

 

 

Below is an image of the GPO (General Post Office) taken 1910 and we see the Cafe Royal to the right.

 

[david murdoch]

On 27/07/2017 at 02:06, JPJamie said:

Just added the image of the Khyber Pass Operation 1918 to the map and of a "Camel Cart" in Agra. 

I'm getting the hang of the maps user interface.

Here's an image of what my Grandfather labeled "GPO Murree Hills."  Wondering if that building still exists to this day....

 

Just Googled it. Yes it still exists, and by the looks of things was very recently been restored to original condition.

 

[JPJamie]

15 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Just Googled it. Yes it still exists, and by the looks of things was very recently been restored to original condition.

 

OH WOW!  THAT is amazing!  The camera angle is almost the same!  What a difference a hundred years make!  Looks like they added an addition to the right side and kept the basic motif of the original structure.  The Cafe Royal on the right has also been significantly upgraded.  Thanks David! 

Edited 26 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

 

Thanks David! 

I have a couple of photos of Nicholson's Neck, though I couldn't find anywhere relating to that name. I assumed it was one of the John Nicholson memorials at Murree, based off the writing in the stone I could make out in one of the images, but I wasn't sure so I left it out. (The only place I could find of that name was in South Africa, which really confused me for a bit...)

Appreciate you finding it and adding it to the map though, I'll add my two pictures to yours when I get a chance. 

Thanks,

Alex. 

Alex. "Nicholson's Neck" is not it's official name - I presume it was a rather irreverent nickname used by the soldiers. Its real name is Nicholson's Obelisk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholson's_Obelisk

It's by the roadside on the way north from Rawalpindi on the Trunk Road

Edited 26 July , 2017 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

6 minutes ago, JPJamie said:

 

OH WOW!  THAT is amazing!  What a difference a hundred years make! 

 They seem really proud of it and nice to see they actually wanted to turn the clock back. There were a couple of postage stamps issued in 2015 to mark the restoration. It looks like it was enlarged and a new façade added, but they took it all down and put it back to the original design. It's still a working post office.

 

[abowell97]

On 27/07/2017 at 02:21, david murdoch said:

Alex. "Nicholson's Neck" is not it's official name - I presume it was a rather irreverent nickname used by the soldiers. Its real name is Nicholson's Obelisk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholson's_Obelisk

It's by the roadside on the way north from Rawalpindi on the Trunk Road

Ah, that explains it. I did see that when I was trying to find it, but as I didn't have any of the Obelisk itself, I thought it was taken somewhere else.

These are the two I have:

 

 

I assume the second one will be of the valley you labelled on the map.

Tried to enhance the tablets, but couldn't make any any more than the top row.

EDIT: Just found a transcription - "This column was erected by friends, British and Native, To the memory of Brigadier General John Nicholson. Taking a hero's part in four great wars for the defence of British India, Cabul 1840, First Sikh War 1845, Second Sikh War 1848, Sepoy Mutiny 1957."

Transcription copied from Shiraz Hassan's post on https://www.dawn.com/news/1144829

 

I'll put the top two on the map at the same location.

Hope these help,

-Alex.

 

[JPJamie]

Alex:  Thanks for starting the Google Map!  I've been using it more and feel it's a great place to insert/place images "off topic."  As an example I just put an old image of the Murree GPO (General Post Office) on the map.  It works best to zoom in and find the proper positioning as the map found the current location of the GMO for me.   

Edited 26 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

Ah, that explains it. I did see that when I was trying to find it, but as I didn't have any of the Obelisk itself, I thought it was taken somewhere else.

These are the two I have:

I assume the second one will be of the valley you labelled on the map.

Tried to enhance the tablets, but couldn't make any any more than the top row.

EDIT: Just found a transcription - "This column was erected by friends, British and Native, To the memory of Brigadier General John Nicholson. Taking a hero's part in four great wars for the defence of British India, Cabul 1840, First Sikh War 1845, Second Sikh War 1848, Sepoy Mutiny 1957."

Transcription copied from Shiraz Hassan's post on https://www.dawn.com/news/1144829

 

I'll put the top two on the map at the same location.

Hope these help,

-Alex.

 

 

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

Thanks David! 

I have a couple of photos of Nicholson's Neck, though I couldn't find anywhere relating to that name. I assumed it was one of the John Nicholson memorials at Murree, based off the writing in the stone I could make out in one of the images, but I wasn't sure so I left it out. (The only place I could find of that name was in South Africa, which really confused me for a bit...)

Appreciate you finding it and adding it to the map though, I'll add my two pictures to yours when I get a chance. 

Thanks,

Alex. 

Alex. I added a modern day photo of the carved rock at Kuldana, and also inserted link in the text box  - this appears to work, and takes you right to the history behind this stone.

[abowell97]

3 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Alex:  Thanks for starting the Google Map!  I've been using it more and feel it's a great place to insert/place images "off topic."  As an example I just put an old image of the Murree GPO (General Post Office) on the map.  It works best to zoom in and find the proper positioning as the map found the current location of the GMO for me.   

Great to hear, glad it can be of some use! 

I've added a second layer and moved a lot of the 'locations within locations' onto it, so people can switch to just the main locations, or the photos taken in specific areas, like Bazaars. 

 

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Alex. I added a modern day photo of the carved rock at Kuldana, and also inserted link in the text box  - this appears to work, and takes you right to the history behind this stone.

Link works fine, great bit of extra info added to the location, thanks!

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Great to hear, glad it can be of some use! 

I've added a second layer and moved a lot of the 'locations within locations' onto it, so people can switch to just the main locations, or the photos taken in specific areas, like Bazaars. 

 

Link works fine, great bit of extra info added to the location, thanks!

 

Yes!  Layering is a great idea with one for places and the other images for a start.  Thanks!  

David: Interesting to read about Kitchener in Lahore in 1907.

Edited 27 July , 2017 by JPJamie