22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[JPJamie]

20 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. That's correct - the produced their own little magazine the name is MOMAGU  MOtor MAchine GUn! The images and write up sent back from India to "The Motorcycle" and they published the article end of March 1918 - so allowing for it to get back they probably they started it beginning of 1918 so could have been several issues! I'm sure a lot of the photos like the football teams and "battery news" would be in it. Scanning through copies of "The Motorcycle" Sgt Fielder  also sent them "updates" from India. I've also seen some others from "known players" by then in the L.A.M.Bs  - they were all part of the motorcycling network, and kept in touch.

 

I'm just getting all this "into my head" at this time!  We're rummaging through this attic, finding all sorts of things and connecting the dots! 

Edited 3 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-1 at 23:43, david murdoch said:

Paul. I think I wrote down Lindsey from the GSM roll, where I first noted him as being with 22nd. He's Lindsay on his MIC and that is the correct spelling - another Scot from Dalkeith Midlothian. He's on the 1911 Census age 28 and a bank teller and living at home with father and a younger brother and sister. So he would be 32 when he enlisted - so looking for one of the older lads in the photos. His address on his MIC is the same - 135  Croft St, Dalkeith   Let me put all the MICs on a zip file and send to you. I have all of them downloaded and quite a few medal roll pages too.

 

Thanks David. Got him. Father James, Mother Margret, 2 older siblings as well and on 1901 census a 3rd younger sibling. 1891 living at Porteous Place and 1901 South St -both Dalkeith. Strangely, I cannot find a 1911 census return - was that through Scotlands People?

Best Paul

[david murdoch]

5 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Thanks David. Got him. Father James, Mother Margret, 2 older siblings as well and on 1901 census a 3rd younger sibling. 1891 living at Porteous Place and 1901 South St -both Dalkeith. Strangely, I cannot find a 1911 census return - was that through Scotlands People?

Best Paul

Paul.

Yes I'm on Scotlands People for family tree research.

James Lindsay's address on MIC is Croft St Dalkeith. I checked him up on the 1911 Census, and he was there at the same address - actually was No.135 Croft St.  He was there with his father  and a younger brother and sister. Moving back to 1901 Census gets both parents, an older sister and two more brothers. All three of his brothers would  fighting age in WW1 but do not appear on Dalkeith war memorial , so looks like they all survived, so could have  descendants. I have not found any marriage record for him but he was born in 1882 and living at home still not married by 28 and would  be 37 when he got back from the war.  

[abowell97]

 

Just an image I found the other day. Quite damaged (took a lot of scans before the two halves lined up), and most of the names are off the page.

I assume it was taken before W.Patrick (2nd row from the back, 3rd from the right) was sent to India, as none of the names correspond to any in the list of MMGC servicemen. One or two common names such as Parker or Bartholomew, but it's doubtful as they aren't the correct rank. 

This is the annotation on the rear:

Row - Cpl. Kigley, Cpl. Puddefoot, Bdr Ainey, (?) Livinglirn, P.M.G. Earle, P.M.G. Thille, (?) Parker, L/Cpl Underwood, Cpl. Few.

Row- Br. Hartnell, L/Cpl. Bartholomew, ... ... Bdr. Brown, Cpl. Way. 

Only a few of the names are listed, and most have been torn off. Not sure if anyone on there is recognisable to anyone...

[JPJamie]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

 

Just an image I found the other day. Quite damaged (took a lot of scans before the two halves lined up), and most of the names are off the page.

I assume it was taken before W.Patrick (2nd row from the back, 3rd from the right) was sent to India, as none of the names correspond to any in the list of MMGC servicemen. One or two common names such as Parker or Bartholomew, but it's doubtful as they aren't the correct rank. 

This is the annotation on the rear:

Row - Cpl. Kigley, Cpl. Puddefoot, Bdr Ainey, (?) Livinglirn, P.M.G. Earle, P.M.G. Thille, (?) Parker, L/Cpl Underwood, Cpl. Few.

Row- Br. Hartnell, L/Cpl. Bartholomew, ... ... Bdr. Brown, Cpl. Way. 

Only a few of the names are listed, and most have been torn off. Not sure if anyone on there is recognisable to anyone...

 

Nice one! 

Would love to start a "clone tool" job on this one to get those rips taken care of.  Nice one of your Great Grand Father Alex!

 

JJ

[david murdoch]

Come up with some more information on Dowie. He appears in London Gazette December 1944. MBE for services as Major Alexander Morrison Dowie, Machine Gun Unit, 1st Battalion Glasgow Home Guard. Actually Forces War Records has him as Major, acting Lt Colonel.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36840/supplement/5744/data.pdf

With this should be able to find more archives on this and maybe a photo.

As I mentioned  - in ancestry they have him as an OBE, but this may be a mistake - unless he got one of those at ta later date (not seeing any gazette for this though).

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

Just an image I found the other day. Quite damaged (took a lot of scans before the two halves lined up), and most of the names are off the page.

I assume it was taken before W.Patrick (2nd row from the back, 3rd from the right) was sent to India, as none of the names correspond to any in the list of MMGC servicemen. One or two common names such as Parker or Bartholomew, but it's doubtful as they aren't the correct rank. 

This is the annotation on the rear:

Row - Cpl. Kigley, Cpl. Puddefoot, Bdr Ainey, (?) Livinglirn, P.M.G. Earle, P.M.G. Thille, (?) Parker, L/Cpl Underwood, Cpl. Few.

Row- Br. Hartnell, L/Cpl. Bartholomew, ... ... Bdr. Brown, Cpl. Way. 

Only a few of the names are listed, and most have been torn off. Not sure if anyone on there is recognisable to anyone...

I'll take a look at those names and see what comes up.  Only one  - there was a James Arthur Bartholemew in the list of later MGC members of the battery. Photo is definitely India  - they are wearing these light coloured Chukka boots that appear in various photos.

Puddefoot being an unusual name  - not many of them around. Have one Mechanical Transport ASC, and another Walter J.Puddefoot ex Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire) Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 163488, and that number fits with the other 163*** transfers on the list.

[pjwmacro]

39 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Come up with some more information on Dowie. He appears in London Gazette December 1944. MBE for services as Major Alexander Morrison Dowie, Machine Gun Unit, 1st Battalion Glasgow Home Guard. Actually Forces War Records has him as Major, acting Lt Colonel.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36840/supplement/5744/data.pdf

With this should be able to find more archives on this and maybe a photo.

As I mentioned  - in ancestry they have him as an OBE, but this may be a mistake - unless he got one of those at ta later date (not seeing any gazette for this though).

 

Gazette searching often seems to be hit or miss.  I`ll have a go tonight.

[pjwmacro]

14 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

I'll take a look at those names and see what comes up.  Only one  - there was a James Arthur Bartholemew in the list of later MGC members of the battery. Photo is definitely India  - they are wearing these light coloured Chukka boots that appear in various photos.

Puddefoot being an unusual name  - not many of them around. Have one Mechanical Transport ASC, and another Walter J.Puddefoot ex Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire) Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 163488, and that number fits with the other 163*** transfers on the list.

 

Agree - I was thinking India rather than UK - but I hadn't noticed the boots.  Was there a central PT School in India - to which a range of units might have sent potential PTIs for training?  Which would explain names we don't recognise.  And I think those are PTI badges on the chests of the 2 seated guys in the centre?  Also notice a couple of Bdrs as well as Cpls - which suggests a gunner regt / multiple units in the photo.  (I think MMGS used Cpl rather than Bdr?)

 

Great photo Alex.

[abowell97]

On 04/07/2017 at 00:33, pjwmacro said:

Was there a central PT School in India - to which a range of units might have sent potential PTIs for training?

Yes, I think I uploaded one of the PT school earlier in the forum. I found a few more yesterday labelled as PT school, and one with two PT instructors, though I wasn't aware of this when I uploaded the image.

Edit: found it-

On 26/06/2017 at 20:45, abowell97 said:

 

Walter Patrick, second from the right.

Though I'd have thought If Walter Patrick went to the PT school in India, he'd go with the battery. Maybe they did and just didn't make it onto the same photo, or their names ripped off (most did), not sure...

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Yes, I think I uploaded one of the PT school earlier in the forum. I found a few more yesterday labelled as PT school, and one with two PT instructors, though I wasn't aware of this when I uploaded the image.

Edit: found it-

Though I'd have thought If Walter Patrick went to the PT school in India, he'd go with the battery. Maybe they did and just didn't make it onto the same photo, or their names ripped off (most did), not sure...

 Those are PTIs - badge still in use today. It's possibly actually some kind of "team" photo - maybe athletics or the like. At Rawalpindi would be other units, so could be a "British Army" team. My grandfather played hockey in Mesopotamia - British Army against Indian Army. Chap 2nd from left at the front looks to be Indian.

[pjwmacro]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:24, JPJamie said:

David that's a great photograph is a Clyno!  Totally different dimension when you see their equipment in colour.  I see this may be an American web editing tool as colour shows up as being the wrong spelling of color! LOL!

 

+++++

 

Here they are on tour.  What's interesting about this photo is Nicholson's Obelisk is faintly visible in the upper part of the photograph.  The photographer did a nice job of composition as the intent was to get the Obelisk, the human interest of the lad in the foreground and the motorcycles with side cars all in one. Too bad he got it over exposed.  I cut out the date below, which my grandfather penned as 1916.    Being the original is so small I didn't notice Nicholson's Obelisk until after scanning at 600dpi.  The lad in the foreground has just pushed his goggles above his eyes and it does appear to very dusty. Why did my grandfather refer to Nicholson's Obelisk as "Nicolson's[sic] Neck?"  Probably referencing the road?

 

The code (cascading style sheet, JavaScript and HTML) has resized my uploaded image which is understandable.  When editing in Photoshop, I found larger dimensions worked better with this image, however that was not allowed after uploading.  I uploaded it at 954x1322 (width x height) pixels, which is rather large.   

 

Hi James

Here is my grandfather's photo of Nicholson's Neck - slightly different angle but not nearly such  a good photo as yours. Also attached is a photo of Attock Bridge -mined as the last line of Defence of the NWF! I have checked my grandfathers album again - no photos of theTaj Mahal or of Calcutta.

 

Regards, Paul

 

 

[pjwmacro]

This one puzzled me - it's in the last section of my grandfather's album in a section labelled Kashmir -  and I think they were taken early in 1919, before the 3rd Afghan War. Sorry about the quality of the photo - best I can do until I can access the album itself. But  - the rider is in uniform, the combination appears a standard military machine but is unarmed. And the passengers are clearly a dog, who sadly  pretty much obscures the face a young lady, who to my mind, might just be in white/ a wedding dress?? I am sure the rider is not my grandfather - but I just wondered if he might be John Travell Manton Gough? Sorry the photo quality is so poor I don't think one can say much with any certainty.

Best, Paul

 

[david murdoch]

On 04/07/2017 at 10:11, pjwmacro said:

This one puzzled me - it's in the last section of my grandfather's album in a section labelled Kashmir -  and I think they were taken early in 1919, before the 3rd Afghan War. Sorry about the quality of the photo - best I can do until I can access the album itself. But  - the rider is in uniform, the combination appears a standard military machine but is unarmed. And the passengers are clearly a dog, who sadly  pretty much obscures the face a young lady, who to my mind, might just be in white/ a wedding dress?? I am sure the rider is not my grandfather - but I just wondered if he might be John Travell Manton Gough? Sorry the photo quality is so poor I don't think one can say much with any certainty.

Best, Paul

 

Paul. I think that is Sgt Fielder. For sure this is the COs bike - Clyno with the comfy civilian side car.

I was about to post that I think that is Fielder to the left of Moloney in the battery photo in UK.  Have two other photos  of him riding this specific bike. It's mentioned in the newspaper clipping about the miniature aircraft propeller attached to the front - and you can see it again in this photo too. Fielder states that " it had been through a good many trials back home" - so it belonged to him and he fitted it to the bike. It appears to have been his "trade mark" from his pre war racing days. It is not on the bike in the battery photo, but is seen of four photos in India.

 

[pjwmacro]

14 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. I think that is Sgt Fielder. For sure this is the COs bike - Clyno with the comfy civilian side car.

I was about to post that I think that is Fielder to the left of Moloney in the battery photo in UK.  Have two other photos  of him riding this specific bike. It's mentioned in the newspaper clipping about the miniature aircraft propeller attached to the front - and you can see it again in this photo too. Fielder states that " it had been through a good many trials back home" - so it belonged to him and he fitted it to the bike. It appears to have been his "trade mark" from his pre war racing days. It is not on the bike in the battery photo, but is seen of four photos in India.

 

David i'll buy that it is the CO's machine /combination. And it could well be Sgt Fielder - but it's really difficult to tell without the original photo to go on. And if it is Fielder that leaves me even more puzzelled as to who the girl is  - Fielder was married and I wouldn't have thought his wife would have been able to come up to India. UNnless it was a photo taken in UK wich has somehow got into these pages of my grandfather's Album. And Molony never married. Curious!

[JPJamie]

I've been watching a few YouTube videos of Pakistan and it appears motorcycles are THE mode of transportation within Pakistan, partly because of the mountains.

Edited 4 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-2 at 18:28, JPJamie said:

Thanks to Maureen for posting the link to the online copies of MotorCycle Magazine!

 

MOMAGU

 

Names: Sgt. J.R. Slater; Gunner J.T. Gough

"On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."

"We have now been in the country for almost two years..."

"This battery, of course is composed entirely of men who enlisted for the purpose of fighting in France, but we were sent to India; and not knowing what to expect, we were highly pleased to receive this order. "

 

Now we know not only how they got to Rawalpindi, but how long it took to get there.

Also, the reference of "We have now been in the country for almost two years..." compared to the print time on the page of March 28th, 1918, would make them in country two years previous, which matches the time my Grandfather and others were there.

 

I actually searched for "Blighty" in Google and of course figured out it's slang for England.

Funny how MOMAGU sounds Indian, but just means MOtorcycle MAchine GUn

I heard "blighty" while in Scotland, but never made the association with England...learned something today.

Does the reference to the "duration man" mean (the obvious) he's in this for the duration of the war?  

 

The MotorCycle article below is from March 28th, 1918, and contains therein an exact copy of a picture I have in my Grandfather's photograph album...

 

I have just posted into the "Lookups and Requests" forum just to spread the net a little further - to look for any copies of MOMAGU which might still be out there. I'm sure somebody will have them in their attic!

Best Paul.

 

[Guest]

On 16/04/2017 at 23:10, pjwmacro said:

Maureen many thanks for coming back. I have found the NAM photos - there is a possibility that the prone figure behind the combination is my grandfather - my Father believes so - but I think that the NAM sent him the photos when he lodged my grandfather's report of his action with them - I think the case is unproven!

I have also found the auction photos - sadly the aution house won't tell me who sold or bought the pictures. But thank you for responding . I do need to try the IWM in case there are oral histories recorded - and i think the majority of Indian Army records are lodged with the British Museum. Best wishes Paul

 

On 09/05/2017 at 22:58, JPJamie said:

 

Thanks for this David!

Yes he was Scottish.  He probably left out the P (Petrie) when he signed.  My father (his son) and our entire family left Scotland in 1963.  He didn't talk much about India.  I just knew he had been there.  Didn't ask him much about it as I was about 14 when I last saw him.  I could tell he liked motorcycles and had a small "moped" in Hamilton, Scotland where he lived while we all lived in Scotland.  I never associated his "moped" with his service in India. I never saw the British War Medal, but he probably had it tucked away somewhere.        

 

[abowell97]

Just found that Walter Patrick must've been a PT Instructor, if these photos are anything to go by:

Just getting to grips with a new handheld scanner, so not exactly great scans...

 

[david murdoch]

On 08/07/2017 at 01:39, abowell97 said:

Just found that Walter Patrick must've been a PT Instructor, if these photos are anything to go by:

Just getting to grips with a new handheld scanner, so not exactly great scans...

 

Possibly makes the torn phot posted earlier  - class graduation photo, so people from other units. In that one the chaps with the badges on the vests are qualified instructors - Army Physical Training Staff. They  possibly sent more than one from the battery (maybe one for each section) and they would return to run the PT sessions to the correct standard.

Below is quoted from L.A.M.B  training manual, but they would have had similar instructions. Those who became qualified instructors would themselves qualify for a trade badge.

(b) Physical Training.  To maintain the men in good bodily health during the hot weather, it is important that all ranks should be put through at least half an hour’s  physical training every day. These may be varied by occasional route marches; in places where bathing is possible, they may well be combined with bathing parades held immediately afterwards.

 

[JPJamie]

Welcome to the thread IEnglish!

Iain is my cousin and Acting Corporal Gunner James P. Jamieson is also his grandfather.

 

JJ

[pjwmacro]

Welcome IEnglish. Best Paul

[david murdoch]

Another positive Identity.

"Duncan ASC"

 Driver/Pte.  John Thornton Duncan  M2/103063 Army Service Corps.

Age 21, occupation Motor Apprentice.

Residence:- The Vicarage, Kirkoswald, Penrith, Cumbria.

Attested 2/6/1915 Coventry

Joined 3/6/1915 Grove Park

26/2/1916 to India with 22nd MMGS.

Discharge Medical 23/10/1919 Rawalpindi.

Returned to UK Departing Bombay 8/11/1919 Arriving Woolwich Dock 3/12/1919

BWM and GSM/clasp. Service record surviving!

Going by these details - almost certain he travelled to Coventry specifically to join MMGS as per the recruiting procedure advertised in "The Motorcycle".

 

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Another positive Identity.

"Duncan ASC"

 Driver/Pte.  John Thornton Duncan  M2/103063 Army Service Corps.

Age 21, occupation Motor Apprentice.

Residence:- The Vicarage, Kirkoswald, Penrith, Cumbria.

Attested 2/6/1915 Coventry

Joined 3/6/1915 Grove Park

26/2/1916 to India with 22nd MMGS.

Discharge Medical 23/10/1919 Rawalpindi.

Returned to UK Departing Bombay 8/11/1919 Arriving Woolwich Dock 3/12/1919

BWM and GSM/clasp. Service record surviving!

Going by these details - almost certain he travelled to Coventry specifically to join MMGS as per the recruiting procedure advertised in "The Motorcycle".

 

 Good one David! Love the details, the more the better.

 

JJ

Edited 8 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

Well done David (and James for providing the photo!)- another good result.