22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[JPJamie]

Just now, pjwmacro said:

 

Post away if you have Ford van pictures!

 

Will do and have one that was in an accident and rather "bent up." 

[pjwmacro]

19 hours ago, david murdoch said:

"Rangefinder + taker. This instrument gives the exact range of any object up to 20,000 yds away"

This image seemed more professional, and a company it is stamped on the back as "J.T.M. Gough", which I can only assume is the company used to develop the image, as it has a symbol indicating it was done in India. It's a large, high quality copy so I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few people already had this one. 

The equipment is a Barr & Stroud rangefinder and tripod - for some reason this picture seems familiar, and I'm sure I've seen it before! http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/acc-rangefinder.htm

 

He is  Gunner John Travell Maton Gough 1068. He's on the BWM only roll in among the 22nd Battery names. He never got a GSM/clasp, but 22nd for sure  - check out his 22MMGS shoulder title! 

Baptised 15 Sep 1895 - Dinton, Wiltshire, England - died 28 Aug 1921 aged 26 at British Station Hospital, Murree, India! No CWWG listing for him, but he had discharged from army 72/03/1920. With a name like that easy to find on the archives - he was at Birmingham University 1912-1913. He had a sister Irene Alberta Ingeretha Maton Gough.

 

I've also identified "J Rodger" from one of the original postings. He is on this roll too  Gunner James Muir Rodger 1660

 

I've been through all names on this roll not previously linked to 22nd, and I'm pretty certain these are the others - just not positively identified. I've got 18 names (including the two above) 15 Gunners and three NCOs. basically a full section!

Of these only one has a GSM/clasp - when I cross checked him on the GSM roll he's listed as 22nd Squadron (MGC Cavalry) who were also there. I think it's a typo, as there is nothing on his MIC to suggest a transfer.

Another one transferred Commissioned to 2nd HLI same as Dowie.

 

 

Well done David - another result. But I felt sure though that JMT Gough wasn't an Indian photographer!

[pjwmacro]

8 hours ago, david murdoch said:

JJ. Great photos - this is an important part of the story - where they came from, and what became of them after the war. Looks like the kids have got the old army hats out the cupboard for dressing up - think that's a Cameron Highlander on the right!. Part of my MMGS research is to find out where they came from,who were mates and joined up together and also these photos show they did stay in touch afterwards. The MMGS being an unusual unit as it only existed a short while, but recruited from all over the country. The common link to all of them is motorcycles. 22nd Battery is a little snapshot in time as they ended up stuck in India for the duration, and it's looking like for most of them the only unit they served. They were in hindsight probably lucky as they all survived, with Alan Gilmour's broken leg being the worst injury. Picking up their lives after the war or moving on - on the medal cards  have addresses from Canada to China, and now this lad who stayed on in India. Seen evidence Dowie got a speeding fine riding a motorbike after the war. I know my own grandfather bought a Clyno with sidecar with his saved up wages when he got back in 1920. I'm now getting the feeling that my grandfathers original mates who he joined up with were killed.

 

All

Quite agree with David's comment here that all this (incl what people got up to post war) is an important part of the 22 MMGS Bty story. Quite content to let this sort of stuff run - providing we maintain the common 22 Bty link. (In keeping with this i'll look to "freeze" the thread I had running under the soldiers section of this forum and signpost link to this thread - to try and keep the information in a single place).

In line with David's theme of post war motorcycling, I'll add my own family story (which my father reminded me of tonight) on this theme:

 

My grandfather too retained his enthusiasm for motorcycles after the war  - and the family story is that this extended, after he married my grandmother (Avis Prosser), to using a motorcycle and sidecar certainly until my father came on the scene in 1931. The story goes that one dark and wet night he was travelling in this mode - with my grandmother in the sidecar. The front securing bolt is supposed to have come loose, resulting in the sidecar assuming a nose up position, still secured by the rear bolt, with my grandmother tipped backwards and kicking her legs in the air!  As it was a wet and wild night, apparently she was unable to attract my grandfathers attention for a period of time, and he, appothrically, continued blithely down the road for some period of time before realising what had happened! Maybe a degree of "growth in the telling" 'over the years - but still gives me a laugh!

 

I think we still have some family photos of my grand parents with motorcycles and sidecars - I'll liaise with my Father to see what we can dig out and post.

 

Best to all.  Please keep the posts and photos coming - plenty more 22 MMGS Bty descendants still to reach!  Paul

[abowell97]

5 hours ago, JPJamie said:

OK you just PM'd me and I totally get it now.  You want me to enhance the shoulder brass in the image with the guy and the range finder.

OK that's a better project and will give it a go.  Alex, if you want to jump in and make this a team effort I'm in!  Also if you could send me a 600dpi or greater scan of the image that would be superb. 

 

JJ

 Definately, I'll PM you the full scale image tomorrow (or later today, technically) which was scanned at 600 dpi. Should be a fairly decent quality image, just need to get rid of those fingerprints and enhance those areas in Photoshop. Going to be quite fiddly... (and I'm in the middle of a degree for this kind of thing!)

 

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Regarding the list of personnel  - as mentioned there are names on  the BWM only roll we have not  linked to 22nd Battery. The more I'm looking the more I'm convinced these are missing members. I've inserted them all into the tracking sheet, and flagged up their discharge dates brings them up either same day or very close to the known 22nd. Next I will put them in numerical order. This roll is 352 pages to check and there are more low MMGS numbers on it. A few scattered  numbers are commissions who would then have other medal entitlements or officer rolls. There is one other little block of  low service numbers and late discharge dates, but presumably from another battery. How it reads is this entry of numbers  starting with Percy Butt 903 and ending with Allan Gilmour 2420 was submitted and entered on the roll as a block. Gilmour being the highest original service number in the battery his enlistment date was 13/09/1915 so the others prior to this date.

Paul, JJ and Alex I will send you this updated list.

That'd be great, thanks!

[david murdoch]

On 29/06/2017 at 02:01, JPJamie said:

 

I don't have this one in my album and agree the composition seems more professionally done.  In developing the photograph (the un-cropped version, the above is cropped) the right side appears to be overexposed and wondering if this was a camera shutter delay on that side or dark room technique, not sure on that.  One wonders what he died from so young, but I'd suspect some tropical disease as they probably weren't immunized back then, which is another interesting research topic.  The photography has finger prints on it and other dots, more apparent when the image is scaled up.  These marks can be cleaned up in Photoshop with the "Clone" tool which allows you to sample an area adjacent to the mark and "paint" over it.  A Clone tool job on this image would definitely clean it up.  Fun to do, time consuming (ask yourself is this worth the time/effort) but always improves the image.

JJ as mentioned this photo is interesting as it looks to be more "official"  than all the battery shots. It looks primarily to be a promo shot for the rangefinder, Note Gnr. Gough is wearing nice tidy uniform, and looks like socks and shoes rather than puttees.

As you mentioned in pm - he's definitely wearing a wedding ring. I've looked him up  but don't see any record of him being married in UK. Found his parents marriage and his father's death in 1940. He was at Birmingham university as a student  in 1912-13 and would have been 19 when he enlisted (by his service number - first half of May 1915). So unless find a record, probably means he got married in India, but also while in service. For that he would need permission from the CO and also such an event would have surely produced photographs! They have him at time of death as living in Ghoragati, Punjab (actually Ghora Gali close by Murree). I'm thinking he met someone there and decided to stay - I don't see any shipping list of him going back to India as a civilian so thinking when he was discharged March 1920 he never came back to UK and instead went back to Murree. If you look at the link below - Murree was a nice place.

 

http://nativepakistan.com/photos-of-murree/ In this link to Murree there are old and new photos - you can see some landmarks that appear in some of (Paul's) photos. Holy Trinity Church for sure, and also Mall Road. Also pictures of soldiers playing football and another military rock carving (Black Watch). I think can find a contact here to get a picture of his grave or find out more.

 

[JPJamie]

 Here is "Range Finder" cleaned up a bit with the Clone Tool.

Amazing job or research on this guy David!

 

[JPJamie]

Here is a Ford Van after a "Slight Knock"

I'm going to venture the profile of the guy nearest the van resembles the "Range Finder" guy. 

 

[JPJamie]

Here is an image of part of the battery leaving and arriving.

 

[JPJamie]

Because there are so many faces in the image above here is the left side of the group, scaled up ...

 

 

Here is the right side of the group, scaled up...

 

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

Here is a Ford Van after a "Slight Knock"

I'm going to venture the profile of the guy nearest the van resembles the "Range Finder" guy. 

 

Great Photo James - thanks. Not convinced it's Gough/ rangefinder man in the picture though.

The arriving leaving photos are interesting though. Thanks for posting enlargements. I'll look in slower time - we might beable to recognise people even if not captioned.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Note the Officer at left, in the crashed Ford Van picture ('Slight knock')...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[pjwmacro]

On 30/06/2017 at 00:41, david murdoch said:

 

As you mentioned in pm - he's definitely wearing a wedding ring. I've looked him up  but don't see any record of him being married in UK. Found his parents marriage and his father's death in 1940. He was at Birmingham university as a student  in 1912-13 and would have been 19 when he enlisted (by his service number - first half of May 1915). So unless find a record, probably means he got married in India, but also while in service. For that he would need permission from the CO and also such an event would have surely produced photographs! They have him at time of death as living in Ghoragati, Punjab (actually Ghora Gali close by Murree). I'm thinking he met someone there and decided to stay - I don't see any shipping list of him going back to India as a civilian so thinking when he was discharged March 1920 he never came back to UK and instead went back to Murree. If you look at the link below - Murree was a nice place.

 

http://nativepakistan.com/photos-of-murree/ In this link to Murree there are old and new photos - you can see some landmarks that appear in some of (Paul's) photos. Holy Trinity Church for sure, and also Mall Road. Also pictures of soldiers playing football and another military rock carving (Black Watch). I think can find a contact here to get a picture of his grave or find out more.

 

 

David, I have tried a FB group without joy for a Gough marriage record. Certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen, but they couldn't finda record.

 

Great photos at link. I particularly liked the one showing Monro in Muree, (attached)  the further link to 22 Bty being that he wrote the 3rd Afghan War despatch in which my grandfather was MiD.

[pjwmacro]

13 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

Note the Officer at left, in the crashed Ford Van picture ('Slight knock')...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Indeed - shame he has had his face halved - and that the troops are not looking at the camera. Be very difficult to identify any of them.

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

 

David, I have tried a FB group without joy for a Gough marriage record. Certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen, but they couldn't finda record.

 

Great photos at link. I particularly liked the one showing Monro in Muree, (attached)  the further link to 22 Bty being that he wrote the 3rd Afghan War despatch in which my grandfather was MiD.

 

From Churchill!

That totally rocks Paul!

[JPJamie]

Returning Bedding to Stores

 

 

The red arrow references another image that mysteriously is missing, but may be pointing to whom I think is Walter Patrick at the left.

 

 

A closer look left side of image... 

 

A closer look right side of image..

 

[pjwmacro]

17 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

From Churchill!

That totally rocks Paul!

Yes I'm chuffed to have it! Just wished  I could have had a chance to know both my Grandfathers - i have no real memories of Bill, and my maternal grandfather (RFC /RAF -  anoher story!) died when I was 2.

Edited 30 June , 2017 by pjwmacro

[JPJamie]

9 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Yes I'm chuffed to have it! Just wished  I could have had a chance to know both my Grandfathers - i have no real memories of Bill, and my maternal (RFC /RAF -  anoher story!) died when I was 2.

 

I watched my maternal grandmother Florence Carnochan through the back window as we drove away and left for Canada back in 1963.  She was waving a white hanky.  I never saw her again.  My grandfather on that side died before I was born.   

[david murdoch]

More gold!

From The Motorcycle March 23rd 1916 issue. Centre pages. The whole battery - probably taken late 1915 or formed up just prior to leaving for India. I think I can see a headcount of 61 in this. CO + 4 officers. The guys right at the back without bandoleers will be the ASC drivers/mechanics and I count 7 of them

 

 

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

More gold!

From The Motorcycle March 23rd 1916 issue. Centre pages. The whole battery - probably taken late 1915 or formed up just prior to leaving for India. I think I can see a headcount of 61 in this. CO + 4 officers. The guys right at the back without bandoleers will be the ASC drivers/mechanics and I count 7 of them

 

 

David that 's more than gold - it's pure platinum with the Kohi-Nor diamond on top. You are brilliant sir!

That's clearly Molony to the right (as we look at it) of his sidecar - both from his picture on this thread - and the photo of officers of 1 R Dubs Fus pre Gallipoli embarkation (reproduced in Neill's Bluecaps and other Gallipoli books)!

Now we need to locate James P Jamieson, Walter Patrick and Ernest "Bill" Macro. 

I think the IWM holds original copies of Motorcycle -  and I am sure Stephen Pope / Delta has asked the question before about getting told if original copies / photos - I will ask him cos it would be marvelous to track down a quality negative or print of the photo - although I'm sure James and Alex have the skills to do much from this!

WOW! With double brass knobs on!!!!!

Best Paul

[abowell97]

18 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Returning Bedding to Stores

 

 

The red arrow references another image that mysteriously is missing, but may be pointing to whom I think is Walter Patrick at the left.

Similar physique, but I'm afraid that isn't Walter Patrick, great image though!

 

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

More gold!

From The Motorcycle March 23rd 1916 issue. Centre pages. The whole battery - probably taken late 1915 or formed up just prior to leaving for India. I think I can see a headcount of 61 in this. CO + 4 officers. The guys right at the back without bandoleers will be the ASC drivers/mechanics and I count 7 of them

 

 

What a find! Great photo, just shame that it's a bit too low-res to make out faces clearly. Tried looking for any scans of the magazine but all I could find were the front covers.

[abowell97]

One point of interest: There's an exhibit on the Motorcycle Machine Gun Corps in the Black Country Museum, and the images of the MMGC batteries are sourced from the Wolverhampton Archives (as a fair few of the motorcycles were built in Wolverhampton). 

I live only a couple of miles away from this, so I may have a look in there at some point soon to see if they have any information we don't!

[JPJamie]

5 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Similar physique, but I'm afraid that isn't Walter Patrick, great image though!

 

What a find! Great photo, just shame that it's a bit too low-res to make out faces clearly. Tried looking for any scans of the magazine but all I could find were the front covers.

 

I agree great find!  We need a 600dpi scan of this image if possible.  David can you do that?

 

JJ 

[david murdoch]

Paul.

As I mentioned I've got similar photos for several batteries, and they are lined up in their parade order. CO at the front and the four other officers are beside the solo bikes a little further back. The chap on the left of  the CO's transport may be the BSM. and behind them with the solo bike is the COs runner.

I'm sure I read once they moved all the original archives of The Motorcycle to the  National Motorcycle Museum, and they were then lost in the fire there in 2003, but worth checking with them also. I'm sure will be print somewhere  that would stand enlargement and have more recognisable faces.

Couple of other interesting things - they shared  the  article with 4th L.A.M.B who went out to East Africa in February 1916 - looks like they were kitted up with tropical gear before they left. The lads along the front with the rifles and bandoleers will be their solo motorbike scouts. I also found today the battery photo for 25th MMGS - again going by the history they supposedly formed in India in May 1917, but they appear in the UK in The Motorcycle  issue April 13th 1916!

[david murdoch]

On 01/07/2017 at 08:09, abowell97 said:

One point of interest: There's an exhibit on the Motorcycle Machine Gun Corps in the Black Country Museum, and the images of the MMGC batteries are sourced from the Wolverhampton Archives (as a fair few of the motorcycles were built in Wolverhampton). 

I live only a couple of miles away from this, so I may have a look in there at some point soon to see if they have any information we don't!

The Clynos were built in Wolverhampton and the area was a fertile recruiting ground for  motorcyclists and mechanics.There is a Clyno at the National Motorcycle Museum. Maybe you can get a contact at the Black Country Museum - any info you could get there I'd be pleased to have. 

 

[JPJamie]

David that's a great photograph is a Clyno!  Totally different dimension when you see their equipment in colour.  I see this may be an American web editing tool as colour shows up as being the wrong spelling of color! LOL!

 

+++++

 

Here they are on tour.  What's interesting about this photo is Nicholson's Obelisk is faintly visible in the upper part of the photograph.  The photographer did a nice job of composition as the intent was to get the Obelisk, the human interest of the lad in the foreground and the motorcycles with side cars all in one. Too bad he got it over exposed.  I cut out the date below, which my grandfather penned as 1916.    Being the original is so small I didn't notice Nicholson's Obelisk until after scanning at 600dpi.  The lad in the foreground has just pushed his goggles above his eyes and it does appear to very dusty. Why did my grandfather refer to Nicholson's Obelisk as "Nicolson's[sic] Neck?"  Probably referencing the road?

 

The code (cascading style sheet, JavaScript and HTML) has resized my uploaded image which is understandable.  When editing in Photoshop, I found larger dimensions worked better with this image, however that was not allowed after uploading.  I uploaded it at 954x1322 (width x height) pixels, which is rather large.