22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-6-11 at 23:41, JPJamie said:

Paul: here is a better image of the guy you say may be your grandfather. 

600 dpi with some adjustment to better define his eyes...

 

Thanks again - but in close up I do not think it's him.  I`ll await a final view from my father.

 

Updated 13 Jun - my father does not believe this is his father (Ernest Macro) - but is not100% sure.

Edited 13 June , 2017 by pjwmacro
Update

[david murdoch]

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Searching "Lives of the First World War" gives me just over 20 Frank Taylors and a similar number of J Thomsons in the RAMC. It does have service numbers against them though. So we may beable to makesome progress.

For those two RAMC chaps will probably have to go through all the possible medal cards and see if any of them received the GSM with clasp (or a BWM on it's own) then follow them to that medal roll and see if there is any mention of them being "attd" the battery. The chap with the rifle looks like he has full kit with ammunition pouches and pack.

[david murdoch]

Got another one.

Gunner George Botterill  2419

Right next to Allan Gilmour 2420, so probable enlistment date on 13/9/1915 (going by enlistment date on Gilmour's SWB record), and discharged 1/1/1920

BWM only but no GSM/clasp.

[JPJamie]

14 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Got another one.

Gunner George Botterill  2419

Right next to Allan Gilmour 2420, so probable enlistment date on 13/9/1915 (going by enlistment date on Gilmour's SWB record), and discharged 1/1/1920

BWM only but no GSM/clasp.

 

 

Thanks David! 

Edited 13 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

20 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Got another one.

Gunner George Botterill  2419

Right next to Allan Gilmour 2420, so probable enlistment date on 13/9/1915 (going by enlistment date on Gilmour's SWB record), and discharged 1/1/1920

BWM only but no GSM/clasp.

 

Well done David. Curious that he doesn't have a IGSM - given his discharge date is so similar to both Jamie and my grandfathers - he had plenty of time to serve on the NWF during the 3rd Afghan War.

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-6-7 at 03:59, JPJamie said:

Here is Edward Collins Gunner 1622, but I don't understand my grandfather's "T" in what appears to be a representation of his first name....

 

 

May have been known as Ted?? (Shortened version of Edward). He looks very young in this photo.

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-6-7 at 04:18, JPJamie said:

Here is  Robert Louclen Gunner 1443...

 

 

James - I think this is Robert Louden ( not Louclen) for the following reasons David can find medal role records for a MMGS Louden but not Louclen and lookat the other Ds inthe labelling - Girdwood, Edinburgh, India, Fielder - the spacing has just gone a little awray in this photo. My thoughts anyway!

[JPJamie]

43 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

 

James - I think this is Robert Louden ( not Louclen) for the following reasons David can find medal role records for a MMGS Louden but not Louclen and lookat the other Ds inthe labelling - Girdwood, Edinburgh, India, Fielder - the spacing has just gone a little awray in this photo. My thoughts anyway!

 

Yep!  Another great catch Paul!  You are most likely correct. 

[JPJamie]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

May have been known as Ted?? (Shortened version of Edward). He looks very young in this photo.

 

Most likely right again Paul!  I  seem to have little to no imagination when it comes to this stuff!  LOL! 

 

 

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Well done David. Curious that he doesn't have a IGSM - given his discharge date is so similar to both Jamie and my grandfathers - he had plenty of time to serve on the NWF during the 3rd Afghan War.

Paul. I'm still working on this but cross checking the different medal rolls, there may be a few others hiding there that are still not accounted for on the 22nd Battery roster. Basically everyone (so far) has been identified from the named photos and most confirmed on the GSM roll as it notes full names and the individual's unit. On the BWM only roll most of them all appear within a few pages, and a good number discharged 1/1/1920. With the service numbers in numerical order can see little clusters who must have enlisted at the same time. However I'm also seeing other names in amongst them on this roll I have not accounted for - they are BWM only but not on the GSM roll as I have all the other (MMGS) personnel from that already on my master list. So these guys must have enlisted around mid 1915, been in a unit that never saw active service in any theatre during the war but then kept on well after the war then discharged same day as the known 22nd Guys. So hints to India as if they had been back in UK they would have been discharged well before. The other MMG batteries involved in 3rd Afghan all had been on Western Front, so their original personnel would have BWM/VM. It's looking like there were a group from 22nd who were in India until 1920, but for some reason did not qualify for the GSM & clasp.

[david murdoch]

Another previously not listed. Found separately on the GSM medal roll.

Gunner William Ferguson Bennett 1422

BWM, GSM & clasp.  Discharge date 21/12/1919

 

Address on MIC

55 North St,

Newtonards

Co. Down, NI.

Checking on this address it's a motor repair garage with flat above.

Family in  28 North St on 1911 Census. William age 20, born 1891

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Another previously not listed. Found separately on the GSM medal roll.

Gunner William Ferguson Bennett 1422

BWM, GSM & clasp.  Discharge date 21/12/1919

 

Address on MIC

55 North St,

Newtonards

Co. Down, NI.

Checking on this address it's a motor repair garage with flat above.

Family in  28 North St on 1911 Census. William age 20, born 1891

 

Nice one David. Interesting that his MiC shows him as MGC Cavalry - although I have seen this before.

Edited 15 June , 2017 by pjwmacro

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Nice one David. Interesting that his MiC shows him as MGC Cavalry - although I have seen this before.

Deffo  one of 22nd Battery. He's right in between a couple of the other lads on the BWM roll. On the GSM roll he's a hand written entry in the last couple of pages but clearly noted as  22 - MMGS. Your Grandfather is another handwritten right on the last page of the roll. I was careful previously with this roll as were 22nd Squadron MGC on there too! I've contacted a couple of people in Northern Ireland to see if they can come up with anything on him or what business was at his address back then. That area is another hotbed of motorcycling going way back!

[abowell97]

On 2017-6-9 at 23:50, JPJamie said:

Here is "acting" Corporal James Petrie Jamieson at right with shoulder stripe and cap showing badge with two unknowns...

 

I can confirm the man sitting in the chair is Walter Patrick, my Great Grandfather. I've recently come into around 250 photographs of the Battery last week, so I'm starting to research it more thoroughly. 

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

I can confirm the man sitting in the chair is Walter Patrick, my Great Grandfather. I've recently come into around 250 photographs of the Battery last week, so I'm starting to research it more thoroughly. 

Hi and welcome to the Forum, and in particular to this thread. If you read back all the postings you will see it's ongoing to identify all the members of the battery and plot their movements. I'm sure Paul and JJ will be very happy to find another descendent and will be interested to compare photos. I'm assisting with research with a an interest in the whole of the MMGS. I have your Great Great Grandfather already on my general list and also on the 22nd Battery list I'm adding more detail. Some of these guys are fairly easy to trace due to having distinctive names and middle names, so can pick them up in census and civilian life, but I don't have anything on Walter yet apart from his service number and medal card/roll.

Best Regards David

 

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

I can confirm the man sitting in the chair is Walter Patrick, my Great Grandfather. I've recently come into around 250 photographs of the Battery last week, so I'm starting to research it more thoroughly. 

 

Welcome to the Forum abowell97!  My grandfather James Petrie Jamieson, is standing in the photograph to your Great Grandfather's left.   I have a large album of black and white photographs as you probably do as well.  I've been scanning them at 300 or 600 dots per inch.  Since the photographs are small, after scanning them and examining them (especially with Photoshop) you will "discover" missed details.  I've been uploading pictures of men to help identify them, but also have pictures of old India and what is now Pakistan 100 years ago.  Please scan if you have that ability and upload images.  Paul Macro and David Murdoch have been superb help in this thread.  Paul is searching for images of his grandfather who was in the battery.

 

Take a look at this picture and let us know if you see your Great Grandfather in it.  I think he may be to the left of my Grandfather, they both have pipes in their mouths.

Edited 17 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

Looking in more detail on the photos. Interesting to see if can make out badges and other details. On the medal index/roll for Dowie he's listed as Gunner, but in the photo of him sitting on the bike he appears to have a L/Cpl. stripe and also a good conduct stripe on his left sleeve. Above this has another badge - most likely machine gunner trade "MG" badge or instructor qualified. In picture of him standing by truck he has Corporal stripes but then he left the battery and was commissioned 19/8/1918. I don't have a discharge date for him yet, but tracking his movements. He was from Kingsbarns in Fife (near St Andrews) Looks like he got a bank job shortly after getting home - then moved and/or got promoted He was a bank clerk in Elie 1921 (close to home) then Dunfermline and then moving up to Aberdeen. Found a newspaper clipping on him - in Cupar Sheriff Court September 1921 fined 20 shillings for riding a motorcycle at excessive speed (27mph in a 20 limit!)

[abowell97]

 

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Hi and welcome to the Forum, and in particular to this thread. If you read back all the postings you will see it's ongoing to identify all the members of the battery and plot their movements. I'm sure Paul and JJ will be very happy to find another descendent and will be interested to compare photos. I'm assisting with research with a an interest in the whole of the MMGS. I have your Great Great Grandfather already on my general list and also on the 22nd Battery list I'm adding more detail. Some of these guys are fairly easy to trace due to having distinctive names and middle names, so can pick them up in census and civilian life, but I don't have anything on Walter yet apart from his service number and medal card/roll.

Best Regards David

 

Thanks for the welcome! I'm in the process of scanning quite a few of the photos of groups, individuals and military exercises, and the benefit being my Great Grandfather has written on the reverse side of most images about the details of what's going on, or who the individuals are.

Several of the images are extremely faded, and keeping them at a good quality is going to be tricky, and a lot will probably be copies of ones already on here. 

I'd be keen to gain any information about Walter Patrick's medal card, as I'm not aware of that.

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

Take a look at this picture and let us know if you see your Great Grandfather in it.  I think he may be to the left of my Grandfather, they both have pipes in their mouths.

 

As for that specific group photo, I'm afraid he isn't in that one. 

I'll try to get some of my own scans up in the next few days. 

 

[david murdoch]

I'll send his medal index card and roll page by message as technically against forum rules to post up archive downloads.

To get a background take a look at the Long Long Trail http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/motor-machine-guns-of-the-first-world-war/

His card is quite sparse but gives Name/rank/regiment/number  and what medals he was entitled to. Some of the others have home address on them where medals were to be sent after the war.To explain this his official rank was Gunner (equivalent to private), Service number 1621 MGC(M) - Machine Gun Corps (Motors) and he gained the British War Medal.

By his service number being low for the Machine Gun Corps, this shows he actually enlisted in the Motor Machine Gun Service - and probably in the first half of 1915.

His medal roll page, shows him on the same page as several other members of 22nd Battery, and the numbers close by his  means they enlisted at the same time. On the roll states the date he was discharged as 1st January 1920 when many of the battery appear to have been discharged. He is one on my list who for some reason did not qualify for the General Service Medal and Afghanistan 1919 clasp - though he was still in India at the time.

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

Thanks for the welcome! I'm in the process of scanning quite a few of the photos of groups, individuals and military exercises, and the benefit being my Great Grandfather has written on the reverse side of most images about the details of what's going on, or who the individuals are.

Several of the images are extremely faded, and keeping them at a good quality is going to be tricky, and a lot will probably be copies of ones already on here. 

I'd be keen to gain any information about Walter Patrick's medal card, as I'm not aware of that.

As for that specific group photo, I'm afraid he isn't in that one. 

I'll try to get some of my own scans up in the next few days. 

 

 

Regarding the faded photos yes this is tricky stuff.  IF you have an image editor (Photoshop etc.) I've found  for basic adjustment, brightness and contrast helps.  There are other tools in Photoshop, but that's way off topic here.  Some of my photographs are overexposed, so turning down the brightness and adjusting contrast helped.

 

JJ 

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Looking in more detail on the photos. Interesting to see if can make out badges and other details. On the medal index/roll for Dowie he's listed as Gunner, but in the photo of him sitting on the bike he appears to have a L/Cpl. stripe and also a good conduct stripe on his left sleeve. Above this has another badge - most likely machine gunner trade "MG" badge or instructor qualified. In picture of him standing by truck he has Corporal stripes but then he left the battery and was commissioned 19/8/1918. I don't have a discharge date for him yet, but tracking his movements. He was from Kingsbarns in Fife (near St Andrews) Looks like he got a bank job shortly after getting home - then moved and/or got promoted He was a bank clerk in Elie 1921 (close to home) then Dunfermline and then moving up to Aberdeen. Found a newspaper clipping on him - in Cupar Sheriff Court September 1921 fined 20 shillings for riding a motorcycle at excessive speed (27mph in a 20 limit!)

 

 

LOL!  And now we have people doing 120mph between cars!  It's fascinating looking at the details in the photographs.  I distinctly remember holding the badge in the upper left hand corner of what you posted and wondering at 10 years old while "raking" through a chest of drawers, what "MMG" meant.  Of course I never asked my grandfather at the time.  His badge must be somewhere back in Scotland...if it's not already been sold on Ebay. 

 

[pjwmacro]

8 hours ago, abowell97 said:

I can confirm the man sitting in the chair is Walter Patrick, my Great Grandfather. I've recently come into around 250 photographs of the Battery last week, so I'm starting to research it more thoroughly. 

 

Abowell97 greetings! Welcome to the GWF and to this thread on 22 Bty MMG in particular.  As you can see from the thread you are the 3rd descendant of battery soldiers to join the thread - and David Muroch has given lots of research assistance - his grandfather was also MMGS, although not 22 Bty. Additionally I have made contact  (outside the forum) with the descendants of Lt Charles Farmer - although they have been unable to add anything to the Battery Story. My interest is my grandfather 1658 Cpl (A/Sjt) Ernest "Bill" Macro and an action near Badama Post 30/31 Jul 19 to recover the crew (and aircraft) from a crashed UK aircraft during the 3rd Afghan War for which my Grandfather was MiD. But in doing so we are also trying to build a more detailed picture of all the members of the Battery - and what the Battery actually did from its arrival/forming in India in Apr 16, through to the end of the 3rd Afghan War - following which it appears the Battery disbanded in late 1919 (or pergaps early 1920 - frustratingly we cannot locate official army orders for forming or disbanding! 

Was William Patrick a Scot? It appears the battery gad a fairly large nunver if Scots in their ranks James's grandfather James Petrie Jamieson was; however  my Grandfather was a London boy.

Any contribution you can add - photographic or story - is very welcome. 

Regards. Paul Macro

[abowell97]

10 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Abowell97 greetings! Welcome to the GWF and to this thread on 22 Bty MMG in particular.  As you can see from the thread you are the 3rd descendant of battery soldiers to join the thread - and David Muroch has given lots of research assistance - his grandfather was also MMGS, although not 22 Bty. Additionally I have made contact  (outside the forum) with the descendants of Lt Charles Farmer - although they have been unable to add anything to the Battery Story. My interest is my grandfather 1658 Cpl (A/Sjt) Ernest "Bill" Macro and an action near Badama Post 30/31 Jul 19 to recover the crew (and aircraft) from a crashed UK aircraft during the 3rd Afghan War for which my Grandfather was MiD. But in doing so we are also trying to build a more detailed picture of all the members of the Battery - and what the Battery actually did from its arrival/forming in India in Apr 16, through to the end of the 3rd Afghan War - following which it appears the Battery disbanded in late 1919 (or pergaps early 1920 - frustratingly we cannot locate official army orders for forming or disbanding! 

Was William Patrick a Scot? It appears the battery gad a fairly large nunver if Scots in their ranks James's grandfather James Petrie Jamieson was; however  my Grandfather was a London boy.

Any contribution you can add - photographic or story - is very welcome. 

Regards. Paul Macro

Hi Paul,

 

I have surprisingly little information on my Great Grandfather, however he wasn't from Scotland, most likely being born in West Bromwich, where he lived after the War before moving to the Wirral. Despite the lack of paper information, I plan on speaking to other family members about him fairly soon, although my closest link (Walter Patrick's son, my Great Uncle) passed away just over a month ago, which is how I came into possession of the photographs. 

I'll attempt to upload the more relevant photos sometime this week.

13 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Regarding the faded photos yes this is tricky stuff.  IF you have an image editor (Photoshop etc.) I've found  for basic adjustment, brightness and contrast helps.  There are other tools in Photoshop, but that's way off topic here.  Some of my photographs are overexposed, so turning down the brightness and adjusting contrast helped.

 

JJ 

I do have Photoshop, so I'll see what I can do to the faded photos. There are some excellent shots, however they're either too small, or have some marking on the image that detracts from the quality. 

I think for now, I'll just scan them in groups to give you an idea of those I have, and determine any duplicates. I'll try to annotate with the exact words Walter Patrick wrote on them. 

Thanks. 

[abowell97]

First few photos, mainly ones with my Great Grandfather in them. Don't want to put too many up at once, and I'm trying to avoid any duplicates if I can. 

From left to right, in his words; "Sgt. Burke, 19th Bty, M.M.G., your humble, Sgt. Butt, Sgt. Fielder and Sgt. Bolger at Pindi in June, India."

"W.Patrick."

 

"Myself on the Machine Gun, at Jang (I think, writing difficult to make out), N.W.7, India". 

 

Edited these quite a bit, as the top one was essentially a white piece of paper when scanned. I'll get some of the group photos and those of other named individuals in the Battery up soon. Hope these help!

 

 

 

Edited 18 June , 2017 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

First few photos, mainly ones with my Great Grandfather in them. Don't want to put too many up at once, and I'm trying to avoid any duplicates if I can. 

From left to right, in his words; "Sgt. Burke, 19th Bty, M.M.G., your humble, Sgt. Butt, Sgt. Fielder and Sgt. Bolger at Pindi in June, India."

"W.Patrick."

 

"Myself on the Machine Gun, at Jang (I think, writing difficult to make out), N.W.7, India". 

 

Edited these quite a bit, as the top one was essentially a white piece of paper when scanned. I'll get some of the group photos and those of other named individuals in the Battery up soon. Hope these help!

 

 

 

 

Thanks Abowell. Some great shots. Do you have any idea which section if the Battery your Great Grandfather was in?  NW7 should be NWF - North West Frontier. Interesting that that there is a 19th Battery face  (Burke) in the photos - not something we gave come across before but suggests there was at least some contact between batteries (which is logical if 19 and 22 were the only MMG batteries in India. Fielder and Bolger are both names we have come across before  (although this is the best photo I have seen). Fielder was ASC attached. Bolger was MMG. Butt is a new name so far as I can recall.

Regards Paul