JPJamie Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 Does anyone know the badge on the cap in the "Railway Comfort" image? I just realized it's a pith helmet upside down and it's on the left side! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 On 12/07/2017 at 02:23, JPJamie said: Does anyone know the badge on the cap in the "Railway Comfort" image? I just realized it's a pith helmet upside down and it's on the left side! LOL! Pretty sure it's this MMGS sew on shoulder patch. This was original to the MMGS. I've seen in all the photos three distinctly different helmet badges - possibly indicating each section used a different one. The majority seem to be this distinct shape - but then most of the photos are No.1 section. Convention always seems to be on the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, david murdoch said: Pretty sure it's this MMGS sew on shoulder patch. This was original to the MMGS. I've seen in all the photos three distinctly different helmet badges - possibly indicating each section used a different one. The majority seem to be this distinct shape - but then most of the photos are No.1 section. Convention always seems to be on the left side. I was sure you had posted something previous and was going to link to what you just did on page 8! HA! Thanks David! Edited 11 July , 2017 by JPJamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 (edited) On 2017-7-11 at 00:40, abowell97 said: I have this image as well! I think it's captioned "Action on the NWF". Alex, Jim In fairness North West Frontier includes both Abazai and Mirimshaw (now Miramshaw). Abazai is about 25 miles north of Peshawar, close to the Khyber Pass, while Miramshaw is over in Wazirastan, closer to Bannu. Best, Paul Edited 12 July , 2017 by pjwmacro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 4 hours ago, JPJamie said: I was sure you had posted something previous and was going to link to what you just did on page 8! HA! Thanks David! Again - not sure yet if this patch was discontinued when MGC took over, as they basically cancelled the Motor Machine Gun Service plan to have 40 batteries and moved away into armoured cars and the heavy section. Some of the batteries kept going as motorcycle units and some were disbanded/re equipped. The units that ended up in hot places and using tropical helmets seem to have made up their own helmet badges or tactical flashes. In out of the way places probably just with approval at battery CO level. Picture of 1st AMB in UK they were issued their tropical kit before leaving, and they were wearing their regular MGC metal cap badges on the front of the tropical helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 3 hours ago, david murdoch said: Pretty sure it's this MMGS sew on shoulder patch. This was original to the MMGS. I've seen in all the photos three distinctly different helmet badges - possibly indicating each section used a different one. The majority seem to be this distinct shape - but then most of the photos are No.1 section. Convention always seems to be on the left side. Agree David - that's exactly what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 5 hours ago, JPJamie said: Wonderful images, especially the one on top. I've got a quote from Gunner J.T. Gough with "Railway Comfort:" "On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi." Making pieces fit together to re-create the storyline is what this thread is all about. Now I know, my grandfather was more than likely on that same train. They look happy and probably figured out what the next few years were going to be like for them...compared to thousands of others on the Western Front. Looking at the map of India/Pakistan was just over 1600 km from Bombay to Rawalpindi, and 1930 km Rawalpindi to Calcutta so they must have had probably 5 day rail journey when they went there on leave. In this photo they look well scrubbed up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 On 10/07/2017 at 20:00, david murdoch said: I've found a casualty relating to 22nd Battery. One of the ASC lads. Pte/Driver William Arthur Cordwell. M2/101516. Died Age 33 Rawalpindi 5/4/1918, buried 6/4/1918 Rawalpindi War Cemetery. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/909563/CORDWELL, WILLIAM ARTHUR Born 1/1/1885 Enfield, resident South Kensington. Found on 1911 Census - was single and occupation Motor Car Driver. Going back the older Census he had two older brothers, two older sisters and two younger sisters. Checking on Ancestry he has been researched by a family descendent - I've sent a message to this person. I'm sure he will be in some of the group photos and be one of the older ones. Presuming he died of illness - medal roll just stated died. Looking for more information on this chap. Added him to the spreadsheet list, but presumably he was replaced, so I think still looking for another 3 or 4 more Army Service Corps. I'm presuming all original ASC group were enlisted through the MMGS recruiting and have M2 (Motor Transport) prefix service numbers. The ones that have found service records enlisted early June 1915. Interestingly William Cordwell had an older brother Herbert who was in 2nd Reserve Cavalry Regiment, and killed in action 24/04/1916 in Dublin (Easter Rising) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Another confirmed identity. Been hunting him for ages! "Sgt Kellett" on left of picture in The Motorcycle. A/Sgt Walter Rennie Kellett M2/106170 Army Service Corps. Enlisted 14/06/1915 at Bisley. Age 35, single Residence Walton on Thames. Profession Motor Engineer. (on 1911 Census Electrical Engineer) Appointed A/Sgt 08/09/1915 at MMGS Training Centre. To India 26/02/1916 with 22nd MMG Battery BWM and GSM with NWF 1919 clasp. MIC shows he was commissioned Lieutenant in RASC, but no clear date, and 2nd Lieutenant I.A.R.O Gazette date 22/07/1918 His GSM is on the officers roll - so need to check this if he was still with the battery by then. Service record surviving. Got married June 1920, died 15/03/1950 age 70. From his age and electrical/mechanical experience would appear he was the main man regarding vehicle maintenance senior to Fielder. In the photos be looking for one of the older men with Sgt. stripes. I think his promotion date of 08/09/1915 to Acting Sgt is significant - probably when he went from training and assigned to 22nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 12 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2017 4 minutes ago, david murdoch said: Another confirmed identity. Been hunting him for ages! "Sgt Kellett" on left of picture in The Motorcycle. A/Sgt Walter Rennie Kellett M2/106170 Army Service Corps. Enlisted 14/06/1915 at Bisley. Age 35, single Residence Walton on Thames. Profession Motor Engineer. (on 1911 Census Electrical Engineer) Appointed A/Sgt 08/09/1915 at MMGS Training Centre. To India 26/02/1916 with 22nd MMG Battery BWM and GSM with NWF 1919 clasp. MIC shows he was commissioned Lieutenant in RASC, but no clear date, and 2nd Lieutenant I.A.R.O His GSM is on the officers roll - so need to check this if he was still with the battery by then. Service record surviving. Got married June 1920, died 15/03/1950 age 70. From his age and electrical/mechanical experience would appear he was the main man regarding vehicle maintenance senior to Fielder. In the photos be looking for one of the older men with Sgt. stripes. I think his promotion date of 08/09/1915 to Acting Sgt is significant - probably when he went from training and assigned to 22nd. Well done David! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 12 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2017 8 hours ago, JPJamie said: Wonderful images, especially the one on top. I've got a quote from Gunner J.T. Gough with "Railway Comfort:" "On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi." Making pieces fit together to re-create the storyline is what this thread is all about. Now I know, my grandfather was more than likely on that same train. They look happy and probably figured out what the next few years were going to be like for them...compared to thousands of others on the Western Front. Jim/Alex worth reading chapter 4 of "The Last of the Bengal Lancers" by Francis Ingall. It's 13 years after our grandfathers/great grandfathers made the journey - but is a vivid description of exactly the journey they made from Bombay to Rawalpindi. Ingall then continues by train up to Peshawar. Best Paul https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PUt-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA26&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Paul. I just updated as I found his gazette date 22/7/1918. This date is fitting in with when others started to move on. If I can find him on the GSM officer roll, should state if he was still with 22nd Battery or moved on to perhaps moved to repair workshop unit or the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 12 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2017 11 hours ago, abowell97 said: Excellent, that's certainly quite the life he had, what luck to be sent to India after going through the ordeal of Gallipoli, though I think most who served in India can be considered at least luckier than the majority of those who joined up around the same time... Been trying to find the name of one battery member, in this photo he's to the right of Walter Patrick, pulling a face: And in this one, he's to the left of Walter Patrick (far right). I've seen him in quite a few group photos, but can't find any individual photos of him, and as he crops up a fair bit,I just wondered if anyone had an idea of who he might be. Irritatingly, his name may well be written on the back of one of the pictures, but I can't get them out of the album... Hope these pictures help. Thanks, Alex. Sorry Alex - I don't recognise any of the faces. I'm useless at recognising faces and family resemblances in photos. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 12 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2017 6 minutes ago, david murdoch said: Paul. I just updated as I found his gazette date 22/7/1918. This date is fitting in with when others started to move on. If I can find him on the GSM officer roll, should state if he was still with 22nd Battery or moved on to perhaps moved to repair workshop unit or the like. Ack - that thought just occurred to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 On 12/07/2017 at 10:18, pjwmacro said: Jim/Alex worth reading chapter 4 of "The Last of the Bengal Lancers" by Francis Ingall. It's 13 years after our grandfathers/great grandfathers made the journey - but is a vivid description of exactly the journey they made from Bombay to Rawalpindi. Ingall then continues by train up to Peshawar. Best Paul https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PUt-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA26&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false Paul that was a great read! I always wondered what "WOG" meant (Westernized Oriental Gentleman). The description of the toilet leaves not much to the imagination, but I am surprised there was a shower! Since we see four men in the image kindly supplied by Alex, they were most likely in a four-berther, probably on the Frontier Mail and traveling first class! However, we must keep in mind the Frontier Mail started in 1928. As far as I can tell, there was only one first class carriage per train, and that carriage could hold approx. 30 passengers and sleep 24. So with that in mind, how did others in the battery head to "Pindi" heading north? You could write a book based on all this research... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Here is a description and layout of a carriage from that era below... "The first class coaches are 75 feet long and nominally six compartment; but an arrangement of connecting doors between the middle two compartments can provide two "double saloons." Each compartment provides accommodations for 6 persons by day and 4 by night; they contain two sofas running lengthwise, surmounted by two upper berths, which are let down at night for sleeping purposes. Each compartment has a lavatory and bathroom with shower, two or more electric fans, electric lighting, including bed lamps, two Queen Anne armchairs, a small collapsible table and chest of drawers; the large windows each have a pane of glass, a mesh of fine gauze wire as a protection against dirt and dust, and wooden shutters to exclude the glare of the sun. Each traveler has to provide their sheets, blankets and pillows, and will probably be accompanied by a native servant who travels in a special compartment at the end of the carriage." So about 28 of the men would be traveling on one train, assuming there was only one first class carriage. The photographer was probably sitting in one of the Queen Ann armchairs in one of the two middle "saloons." You can clearly see in the photograph Alex provided "Toilet" in the top right of the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Dear JPJamie, Well observed! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abowell97 Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 10 hours ago, pjwmacro said: Jim/Alex worth reading chapter 4 of "The Last of the Bengal Lancers" by Francis Ingall. It's 13 years after our grandfathers/great grandfathers made the journey - but is a vivid description of exactly the journey they made from Bombay to Rawalpindi. Great find, Paul! Excellent insight into the journey, thanks for providing this.To think this was before air conditioning 'developed' into fanning a block of ice... And another good insight, JP! That diagram fits the image layout perfectly, the toilet and shower must've been extremely narrow. Thanks, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, abowell97 said: Great find, Paul! Excellent insight into the journey, thanks for providing this.To think this was before air conditioning 'developed' into fanning a block of ice... And another good insight, JP! That diagram fits the image layout perfectly, the toilet and shower must've been extremely narrow. Thanks, Alex. Would anyone care to speculate on the logistics of how men from the Beltana eventually got to Rawalpindi from Bombay? There was probably only one set of tracks back then, so returning trains would have had to wait on "sides." We have information from 1928 when the Frontier Mail started but nothing so far from 1916. Edited 12 July , 2017 by JPJamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 On 13/07/2017 at 00:04, JPJamie said: Would anyone care to speculate on how all the men from the Beltana eventually got to Rawalpindi from Bombay? There was probably only one set of tracks back then, so returning trains would have had to wait on "sides." I've found information from 1928 when the Frontier Mail started but nothing so far from before that time. Hard to say what the exact route would be - The Indian railway network of the time was pretty extensive and of high quality. Need to find better resolution period map of the network, when it was British India, as they would cross from what is now India into Pakistan. They would have made an even longer journey by rail to go on leave to Calcutta. I'm thinking the visit to the Taj Mahal was possibly a stop over on the rail journey to or from Calcutta. Looking at the main lines they probably went east towards Delhi and then north west. On this first journey al the bikes and trucks would be on flat cars or goods wagons. During my raking through "The Motorcycle" I found an article about a motorcycle journey (civilian) where they went to Peshwar and Murree, and on the Trunk Road from Rawalpindi. I will dig this out as it describes the road conditions and landmarks, and likely the same route the battery took going up to Kuldana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 17 hours ago, pjwmacro said: Ack - that thought just occurred to me. I found Kellett's GSM entry on the officers roll, but it does not state what unit he was with at that time (on the roll some do and some don't depending who sent the entry in). Noting that when the battery left UK they did not have any ASC officers in the compliment. So when he got promoted would not be directly replacing someone else or moving up within the battery. I suspect he moved sideways to take charge of a vehicle repair shop with more responsibility. His original service record does not record his commission or any transfer after 26/2/1916, but may have an officer record hiding somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, david murdoch said: Hard to say what the exact route would be - The Indian railway network of the time was pretty extensive and of high quality. Need to find better resolution period map of the network, when it was British India, as they would cross from what is now India into Pakistan. They would have made an even longer journey by rail to go on leave to Calcutta. I'm thinking the visit to the Taj Mahal was possibly a stop over on the rail journey to or from Calcutta. Looking at the main lines they probably went east towards Delhi and then north west. On this first journey al the bikes and trucks would be on flat cars or goods wagons. During my raking through "The Motorcycle" I found an article about a motorcycle journey (civilian) where they went to Peshwar and Murree, and on the Trunk Road from Rawalpindi. I will dig this out as it describes the road conditions and landmarks, and likely the same route the battery took going up to Kuldana. That map makes it obvious why Peshawar in the Northwest Frontier was so important. German agents were working in Afghanistan with the aim of invading India. Also, one wonders if a port in Karachi was used to ship hardware (bikes and Ford vans) to Rawalpindi as that route is shorter and much more direct than from Bombay. I am surprised at the quality and amount of railways in 1909! We know of course who built all that track. They weren't the ones sitting in the shade discussing cricket while drinking (Bombay Sapphire) Gin. In 1912, the British passed an act of parliament explicitly making it impossible for Indian workshops to design and manufacture locomotives. Sorry...couldn't resist, so back on topic! Edited 12 July , 2017 by JPJamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Been back looking again at Sgt Fielder's record and comparing to Kellett's Kellett enlisted 14/06/1915 and appointed A/Sgt 08/09/1915 at MMGS Training Centre. Fielder enlisted 25/05/1915 and appointed A/Sgt 05/09/1915 These dates may be indicators of them being allocated from the training pool to battery. Of the original compliment who sailed to India 68 NCOs and other ranks, now have 54 MGC and 7 ASC confirmed. Of the unidentified names Gnr.Parker by rank and photo is MGC. Ross "Banker" from photo most likely to be MGC, and Sgt. Whitfield could be either MGC or ASC So giving us now 64 names. I think the remaining shortfall are most likely to be ASC drivers due to the number of trucks they had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 (edited) Dear All, The response to this thread has been astounding - and even more so, have been the positive results. Well done! Good work by all concerned, and one is amazed that such a relatively insignificant (sorry) unit operating in a Backwater, could have left such an imprint, whereas next to nothing is known about, say, the 32nd Lancers, Indian Cavalry, in Mesopotamia, Kurdistan, etc. Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 12 July , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 1 hour ago, david murdoch said: Been back looking again at Sgt Fielder's record and comparing to Kellett's Kellett enlisted 14/06/1915 and appointed A/Sgt 08/09/1915 at MMGS Training Centre. Fielder enlisted 25/05/1915 and appointed A/Sgt 05/09/1915 These dates may be indicators of them being allocated from the training pool to battery. Of the original compliment who sailed to India 68 NCOs and other ranks, now have 54 MGC and 7 ASC confirmed. Of the unidentified names Gnr.Parker by rank and photo is MGC. Ross "Banker" from photo most likely to be MGC, and Sgt. Whitfield could be either MGC or ASC So giving us now 64 names. I think the remaining shortfall are most likely to be ASC drivers due to the number of trucks they had. Great work and great synopsis David! JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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