22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[david murdoch]

Paul.

Found in "The Motorcycle" issue 1st July 1915. Your grandfather's enlistment mentioned by name. Unfortunately the photo is from the intake the week before.

Bainbridge was  A/Sgt Gordon Ferguson Bainbridge 1654. He ended up as 206199 A/WOII Tank Corps and then commissioned 2nd Lt. in Tank Corps. (Gazette15/08/1917 notes he was Acting Regimental QMS). Final rank Major

By his MIC he did not get to France until 20/08/1916, so possibly went to Heavy Section.

 

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

The response to this thread has been astounding - and even more so, have been the positive results. Well done!

Good work by all concerned, and one is amazed that such a relatively insignificant (sorry) unit operating in a Backwater, could have left such an imprint, whereas next to nothing is known about, say, the 32nd Lancers, Indian Cavalry, in Mesopotamia, Kurdistan, etc.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Kim

Thank you - even if Motor Machine Gunners are turning in their graves!

I'd particularly like to pay credit to David Murdoch, whose effort in support of this particular project has been tireless - when it is but a small subset of his own research project.

My next stage is to take the various dates in photo albums, accounts in The Motor Cycle et al and try and produce a timeline, probably very rough and ready to start with, of 22 Battery's movements in India from formation through to drawdown in late 1919 or early 1920.  I've made a start - but still free hand so need to type it up.

Regards, Paul

[JPJamie]

19 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Kim

Thank you - even if Motor Machine Gunners are turning in their graves!

I'd particularly like to pay credit to David Murdoch, whose effort in support of this particular project has been tireless - when it is but a small subset of his own research project.

My next stage is to take the various dates in photo albums, accounts in The Motor Cycle et al and try and produce a timeline, probably very rough and ready to start with, of 22 Battery's movements in India from formation through to drawdown in late 1919 or early 1920.  I've made a start - but still free hand so need to type it up.

Regards, Paul

 

Paul:  the timeline is a great thing to work on.  I wish I had more time to help.  You probably already saw it, but in David's post of the MotorCycle above, an E.W. Macro is listed.

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-11 at 23:28, david murdoch said:

Looking for more information on this chap. Added him to the spreadsheet list, but presumably he was replaced, so I think still looking for another 3 or 4 more Army Service Corps.

I'm presuming all original ASC group were enlisted through the MMGS recruiting and have M2 (Motor Transport) prefix  service numbers. The ones that have found service records enlisted early June 1915.

Interestingly William Cordwell  had an older brother Herbert who was in 2nd Reserve Cavalry Regiment, and killed in action 24/04/1916 in Dublin (Easter Rising)

 

 

Another good find David.

Cordwell listed as a gas fitter on the 1901 census. I cannot find a Service Record for him.

Paul

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul.

Found in "The Motorcycle" issue 1st July 1915. Your grandfather's enlistment mentioned by name. Unfortunately the photo is from the intake the week before.

Bainbridge was  A/Sgt Gordon Ferguson Bainbridge 1654. He ended up as 206199 A/WOII Tank Corps and then commissioned 2nd Lt. in Tank Corps. (Gazette15/08/1917 notes he was Acting Regimental QMS). Final rank Major

By his MIC he did not get to France until 20/08/1916, so possibly went to Heavy Section.

 

David

Good find - thank you. I hadn't gone through the Motor Cycle in detail as there didn't seem to be avail electronic copies available for Jan-Jun 1915.  And this raises a question - my grandfathers RAF service record is quite clear - attestation date is 26th March 1915 - and apparently into MMGS. So either that's wrong, or the Motor Cycle have delayed an announcement - or what was he doing from late March through to late Jun? Curious!

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Would anyone care to speculate on the logistics of how men from the Beltana eventually got to Rawalpindi from Bombay?  There was probably only one set of tracks back then, so returning trains would have had to wait on "sides."  We have information from 1928 when the Frontier Mail started but nothing so far from 1916.  

Jim

I'm guessing but i'd be surprised if when the battery travelled en masse on arrival in India if all the troops travelled in first class. Probably, like the Beltana, officers in 1st class, SNCOs in 2nd, soldiers in cattle class. Equipment on flat beds as per David's suggestion. I reckon Alex's photo is probably a leave party, smaller group and in India even soldiers could afford 1st class if not travelling en masse.

You mentioned Karachi.  Bombay was the main shipping port on west coast India - everything went in and out through there unless it went round to the east coast and Madras or Calcutta. Don't forget the equipment was also on the Beltana, so they wouldn't have gone to a separate port to unload it. I'd need to check, but I don't think Karachi was nearly the major port then that it is now . Best

Paul

[delta]

Paul

Not sure if you need to go down the Bainbridge bunny hole 

Bainbridge served with C Coy as  CQMS in Summer 1916,  He stated with Tanks for the rest of the war.  He died in Kenya and my book has the ket details  

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, delta said:

Paul

Not sure if you need to go down the Bainbridge bunny hole 

Bainbridge served with C Coy as  CQMS in Summer 1916,  He stated with Tanks for the rest of the war.  He died in Kenya and my book has the ket details  

Thanks Delta  - just mentioned him in passing as was looking at the people who enlisted same time as Paul's Grandfather, but I will enter any additional details on my own MMGS database.

 

 

[david murdoch]

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

David

Good find - thank you. I hadn't gone through the Motor Cycle in detail as there didn't seem to be avail electronic copies available for Jan-Jun 1915.  And this raises a question - my grandfathers RAF service record is quite clear - attestation date is 26th March 1915 - and apparently into MMGS. So either that's wrong, or the Motor Cycle have delayed an announcement - or what was he doing from late March through to late Jun? Curious!

Regards, Paul

Paul - I tend to think the service record has a mistake. Going by the service numbers - using the SWB list to pick up known enlistment dates. Gunner Robert Peet 1667 is the closest and his enlistment is 30th June 1915. Back in March the service numbers were around mid 500s and up to 1500s by end of May. Given Bainbridge is 1654 on the same publication, I'd say he was attested on 26/6/1915. The only other thing I can think of is there are several mentions in The Motorcycle of people wanting to join at future dates - I take it due to wanting to work their notice in existing jobs. MMGS were so over subscribed by applicants they discouraged this and took people available there and then. The exception to this was specific individuals coming from oversees who had submitted application and were provisionally accepted before they travelled back.

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Thanks Delta  - just mentioned him in passing as was looking at the people who enlisted same time as Paul's Grandfather, but I will enter any additional details on my own MMGS database.

 

 

Thanks both. I won't get distracted but I do need to get Bainbridge into my C Coy  at Flers community in Lives!

Coming back on topic now!

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul - I tend to think the service record has a mistake. Going by the service numbers - using the SWB list to pick up known enlistment dates. Gunner Robert Peet 1667 is the closest and his enlistment is 30th June 1915. Back in March the service numbers were around mid 500s and up to 1500s by end of May. Given Bainbridge is 1654 on the same publication, I'd say he was attested on 26/6/1915. The only other thing I can think of is there are several mentions in The Motorcycle of people wanting to join at future dates - I take it due to wanting to work their notice in existing jobs. MMGS were so over subscribed by applicants they discouraged this and took people available there and then. The exception to this was specific individuals coming from oversees who had submitted application and were provisionally accepted before they travelled back.

Thanks for that David. If it is mistake  (and i have seen them before in all sorts of records!) then it is definately one of recording not transcription. I have just checked the record (his airman's service record) and it is clearly written as 26.3.15 and the 3 is definately a 3 not a 5 or 6 - it is categorically different from the 5 and 6 adjacent.

Grandfather was a student at University College, London so he had nothing to delay his joining up once accepted - and he certainly wasn't overseas so far as I am aware. I wish his Army Service Papers had survived! So I tend to subscribe to your theory based on the numbers - but, as you have pointed out in the past, service numbers don't always reflect enlistment date, and i cannot see why the Motor Cycle would delay any enlistment announcement.  And i am certainly not aware of any other EW Macro within the MGC. All in all it's curious.

Paul

[abowell97]

Few more scans:

Pretty damn awful scan of a damaged image, but this is 'Sgt. Ward'.

I assume it's 'Cpl. Albert Ward' from David's list of servicemen, thought after a promotion

(he's listed as an Acting Warrant Officer as well, so I assume it's before he took that post, if it is him).

 

 

These photos underneath look like they've been taken in the UK, judging by the buildings and trees.

Possibly some time in mid-late 1915 (looks like autumn or winter).

One 'Sgt. Davis', who I don't think is on the list of personnel, though may well not have gone to India.

Dowie on the left, I didn't realise 'Sandy' was a nickname for Alexander until now, in both pictures I have of him, he's labelled as 'Sandy Dowie'. 

 

 

I don't recognise anyone in this photo, it may well be from another section, unsure.

 

Hope these help, 

-Alex. 

[david murdoch]

One 'Sgt. Davis', who I don't think is on the list of personnel, though may well not have gone to India.

Dowie on the left, I didn't realise 'Sandy' was a nickname for Alexander until now, in both pictures I have of him, he's labelled as 'Sandy Dowie'. 

 

Alex - both these in the UK for sure and wintertime with no leaves on the trees. I'll try and id Sgt Davis  -  could have been one of the training instructors. The one on the right with Dowie maybe machine gun school - those could be targets away in the background. The other lad is wearing an MGC cap badge with no MMG - so after MGC took over -  taken in the last couple of months in 1915 or very early 1916 before they left.

Edited 14 July , 2017 by david murdoch

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Alex - both these in the UK for sure and wintertime with no leaves on the trees. I'll try and id Sgt Davis  -  could have been one of the training instructors.

Yeah, I suspected so, I have another of Davis I think, though it's another of him on a motorbike in the same position. On a side note, I'm going to the Wolverhampton Archives tomorrow specifically to look for anything relevant to the MMGC, so I'll be sure to let you know if I find anything. 

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Few more scans:

Pretty damn awful scan of a damaged image, but this is 'Sgt. Ward'.

I assume it's 'Cpl. Albert Ward' from David's list of servicemen, thought after a promotion

(he's listed as an Acting Warrant Officer as well, so I assume it's before he took that post, if it is him).

 

 

These photos underneath look like they've been taken in the UK, judging by the buildings and trees.

Possibly some time in mid-late 1915 (looks like autumn or winter).

One 'Sgt. Davis', who I don't think is on the list of personnel, though may well not have gone to India.

Dowie on the left, I didn't realise 'Sandy' was a nickname for Alexander until now, in both pictures I have of him, he's labelled as 'Sandy Dowie'. 

 

 

I don't recognise anyone in this photo, it may well be from another section, unsure.

 

Hope these help, 

-Alex. 

Alex 

Sgt Ward we think went on to be the Battery Sergeant Major - senior NCO within the Battery 

Agree too that next photos are UK. I dont recognise Davis either. I'll keep my eyes open. Not did I know Sandy as a nickname for Alexander. 

Don't see my grandfather in the bathing party or recognize anyone. It's a photo of a fishing party I have in my Grandfather's album.

What's the place name - Sohan? If so it's in Islamabad in modern Pakistan - very close to Rawalpindi. Any idea of the date?

Best Paul

Edited 14 July , 2017 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

2 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Yeah, I suspected so, I have another of Davis I think, though it's another of him on a motorbike in the same position. On a side note, I'm going to the Wolverhampton Archives tomorrow specifically to look for anything relevant to the MMGC, so I'll be sure to let you know if I find anything. 

Alex wish I could join you. But sadly not.  Worth checking local newspapers in case pictures of 22 Bty boys (local to Wolverhampton ) if they hold in Archives. If you are coming Oswestry way at any stage at w/e then let me know-  try to meet.

I was in TNA yesterday - service record for Roescher (useful ), and for Hargreaves (nothing) but no record for Charles Farmer. Update to follow after w/e.

Best Paul

[abowell97]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

What's the place name - Sohan? If so it's in Islamabad in modern Pakistan - very close to Rawalpindi. Any idea of the date?

Afraid not, annoyingly it may well be written on the rear, but I can't get the picture out...

 

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Alex wish I could join you. But sadly not.  Worth checking local newspapers in case pictures of 22 Bty boys (local to Wolverhampton ) if they hold in Archives. If you are coming Oswestry way at any stage at w/e then let me know-  try to meet.

Will have a look for anything of note. I doubt any of the 22nd members would be in the Express and Star, as (as far as I know) none were from in or around Wolverhampton. I'll be trying to get ahold of any Motorcycle magazine extracts or info on the Vickers-Clyno production though.

Not over Oswestry way at all in the near future, could do at some point though!

 

Regards,

Alex. 

[JPJamie]

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 20:25, pjwmacro said:

Jim

I'm guessing but i'd be surprised if when the battery travelled en masse on arrival in India if all the troops travelled in first class. Probably, like the Beltana, officers in 1st class, SNCOs in 2nd, soldiers in cattle class. Equipment on flat beds as per David's suggestion. I reckon Alex's photo is probably a leave party, smaller group and in India even soldiers could afford 1st class if not travelling en masse.

You mentioned Karachi.  Bombay was the main shipping port on west coast India - everything went in and out through there unless it went round to the east coast and Madras or Calcutta. Don't forget the equipment was also on the Beltana, so they wouldn't have gone to a separate port to unload it. I'd need to check, but I don't think Karachi was nearly the major port then that it is now . Best

Paul

 

Thanks Paul.  Trying to get a feel for what it was like traveling back then and it appears trains were well established.  Also read in the book the dining car was only available to first class, so that was probably only available to officers. Read in the MotorCycle soldiers were paid 2s  21/2d a day.  I still remember the old system as it was still in use before I left Scotland.   

[JPJamie]

The Cook

 

My Grandfather writes: "My first photo taken 8AM, breakfast"

So he was taking photographs.

A few times I'd watch Grandad prepare and down a "Bombay Oyster" which he said was sold on the streets in Bombay in trays.

It may have been of "right of passage" upon arrival in Bombay.

The drink consisted of a raw egg dropped into vinegar and swallowed whole, with water, salt and pepper.

 

 

 

[JPJamie]

Church Parade

You can see white tents off in the distance.

Once again difficult to make out features on the men, because of shadowing from the helmets.

Belts and holsters are worn high on the waist, making for an awkward (right hand) draw. 

I count 33 men, two sergeants and a mostly hidden officer walking in front of the sergeant at right

The sergeant at right may have a whistle in his mouth.

 

 

I was able to gently peel back the photograph above and saw writing underneath!

So my Grandfather did take the image above.  "Church Parade Grisbyterians are nearest the Camera I took this S and Sunday."

The glue isn't that good, but it did pull just a bit off the back of the photo.

I just tried steaming the back of the paper to which a photo was glued without success.  Will now soak an insignificant image in warm water. 

He wrote things on the back, which hopefully will make this experiment worth it, especially for names.  Any other ideas, much appreciated!

 

 

 

 

 

[david murdoch]

5 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Church Parade

You can see white tents off in the distance.

Once again difficult to make out features on the men, because of shadowing from the helmets.

Belts and holsters are worn high on the waist, making for an awkward (right hand) draw. 

I count 33 men, two sergeants and a mostly hidden officer walking in front of the sergeant at right

The sergeant at right may have a whistle in his mouth.

 

 

I was able to gently peel back the photograph above and saw writing underneath!

So my Grandfather did take the image above.  "Church Parade Grisbyterians are nearest the Camera I took this S and Sunday."

The glue isn't that good, but it did pull just a bit off the back of the photo.

I just tried steaming the back of the paper to which a photo was glued without success.  Will now soak an insignificant image in warm water. 

He wrote things on the back, which hopefully will make this experiment worth it, especially for names.  Any other ideas, much appreciated!

 

 

 

 

 

JJ It's Presbyterians are nearest the camera  - he appears to use the same backwards capital P for Parade and Presbyterians. The bit that is peeled off I'd say reads "I took this last Sunday". By stating  the Presbyterians  -  probably means those are the Scots. If they are separated by denomination  - the English lads would be mostly Church of England.

[pjwmacro]

5 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Church Parade

You can see white tents off in the distance.

Once again difficult to make out features on the men, because of shadowing from the helmets.

Belts and holsters are worn high on the waist, making for an awkward (right hand) draw. 

I count 33 men, two sergeants and a mostly hidden officer walking in front of the sergeant at right

The sergeant at right may have a whistle in his mouth.

 

 

I was able to gently peel back the photograph above and saw writing underneath!

So my Grandfather did take the image above.  "Church Parade Grisbyterians are nearest the Camera I took this S and Sunday."

The glue isn't that good, but it did pull just a bit off the back of the photo.

I just tried steaming the back of the paper to which a photo was glued without success.  Will now soak an insignificant image in warm water. 

He wrote things on the back, which hopefully will make this experiment worth it, especially for names.  Any other ideas, much appreciated!

 

 

 

 

 

Surely Presbyterians not Grrisbyterians?

Go steady with steam/soaking - worth a go but not worth ruining your originals! 

 

I am in Devon next w/e so should get another chance to close up my Grandfather's album. Will check out possibility of removing some as well.

Paul

[abowell97]

Went to the Wolverhampton Archives but didn't find a huge amount. Several newspaper articles on Clyno motors, their history and their founder's death. 

They did have several good images of the MMGC though:

http://www.wolverhamptonart.org.uk/collections/getrecord/GB149_P_9448

http://www.wolverhamptonart.org.uk/collections/getrecord/GB149_P_2511

 

I'll look at www.blackcountryhistory.org when it's running again, as they said it'd have quite a lot more there (it's a collection of all the Archives in the black country I think, so it'd be more useful). They also recommended contacting Clyno enthusiast clubs, as they may have information on their WW1 usage. Anyone know where the battery was based before going to India?

 

-Alex.

Edited 16 July , 2017 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Went to the Wolverhampton Archives but didn't find a huge amount. Several newspaper articles on Clyno motors, their history and their founder's death. 

They did have several good images of the MMGC though:

http://www.wolverhamptonart.org.uk/collections/getrecord/GB149_P_9448

http://www.wolverhamptonart.org.uk/collections/getrecord/GB149_P_2511

 

I'll look at www.blackcountryhistory.org when it's running again, as they said it'd have quite a lot more there (it's a collection of all the Archives in the black country I think, so it'd be more useful). They also recommended contacting Clyno enthusiast clubs, as they may have information on their WW1 usage. Anyone know where the battery was based before going to India?

 

-Alex.

Alex conventional wisdom (ie the LLT and David Fletcher's Armoured Cars book)  say the Battery  formed in India. Neither David Murdoch or I believe that is correct.  We think it formed in mid 1915 probably at  Bisley, before shopping to India as a unit. Sorry your time at the archives wasn't more fruitful.

Best Paul

Edited 16 July , 2017 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

First attempt to produce a timeline for 22 Motor Machine Gun Bty (I did say it would be rough and ready!)

 

22 Battery Motor Machine Guns - Timeline                v0.1 as at 17 Jul 17
1915
June 15 - formed Bisley. 2lt EP Windsor posted 23 Jun 15
? Eastbourne trip?  (JJ photo)
Lt MH Roescher A Adjt at Bisley
Nov 16: Maj AW Molony posted in command at Bisley
1916
26 Feb 16. 5 officers and 68 NCOs and soldiers + vans, motorcycles and sidecars embarked Devonport SS Beltana.
20 Mar 16. Disembarked Bombay
Late Mar. Travelled to Rawalpindi. (4 day journey)
Apr 16. NWF tour. See Sgt Fielder letter the Motorcycle July 13th 1916. Depart Pindi 5th Apr for Nowshera. Includes Mardran, Peshawar, Landi Khotal, Thal, Parachinar and Kohat. Return to Pindi 1st May.
Summer 16 (hot season)???: Kuldana/Murree.
Christmas 16: Winter leave period. Sgt Fielder and Cpl Jamieson in Calcutta.
1917
?? Jung, NWF (EWM album)
Summer?? Topa (Himalayan foothills) and Kuldana/Murree (EWM album)
1918
Jan. Morgha (near Pindi) (EWM album).
Summer. Murree
?? Taj Mahal trip (Cpls Jamieson and Patrick + others)
1919
Feb. Gondal (EWM album)
May - Aug. 3rd Afghan War. See war diary: WO95/5392
Autumn?? Battery disbanded. Maj Molony to UK mid Oct. Lt Roescher assumes command, returning to UK himself (depart Bombay 27 Nov 19.)

 

Comment / thoughts, additions welcome. I have a busy week coming up and am then away next weekend - so may not respond very quickly on this means for the next couple of weeks.

Regards, Paul