22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Just want to add here, this is a great research effort but what if my Grandfather was mistaken on the date of July 1918...we will never know. 

Jim

As you say we will never know but:

It certainly wasn't Jul 1919 3rd Afghan Wat time as we know 22 Bty were down at Parachinar then (and I think your Grandfather had left theatre)

I see no particular reason why your grandfather should have been mistaken - everything else he has given has made sense

I cannot find any accounts of other big concentrations at Khyber / frontier disturbances in Jul 17 either.

So I think 22 Bty were up on the Khyber in Jul 1918 - I'm just not sure why/what they were doing there. Also my suspicion is my Grandfather wasn't with them - I think by then he was enroute to Egypt for flying training.

Best Paul

[abowell97]

On 03/08/2017 at 20:18, pjwmacro said:

some suggestion that it may have been strategic posturing to deter Turkey rather than an anti tribes operation. i think this makes sense - but if it was really deliberate then I think there would have been a mention in official despatched or reports

 

Interesting to consider this, I hadn't really thought of that as a possibility. 

One would assume that the slow collapse of the Russian Empire might mean more deployment on the NWF (could be partly behind the mobilisation of several divisions all in July). By June-July 1918, I wouldn't have thought the Ottomans would be in any shape to attack British India, as they were just about to be pushed out of Persia entirely... even with a fair bit if information I still can't find anything substantial that could help.

 

A few photos:

What appears to be a boxing match. Unsure where it is, does anyone else have any boxing images?

 

Making dugouts. The man in the images is from No.2 section, though I'm not sure who.

(I'd assume this is at Morgah, as several other dugout-related images I have are).

 

Signalling practice. I recognise a couple of faces, and Walter Patrick is the taller man at the back. 

 

Edited 5 August , 2017 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

 Can you post more of the dugouts - it's what is commonly known as a sangar (term still in use today) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangar_(fortification)

The signalling photo shows a heliograph on the left and telescope behind the man on the right, as well as the flags, couple of them have notebooks either training manuals or perhaps for jotting down the morse signals they would be receiving from another team.

In the days before radios this was still a common way of communicating.

From my L.A.M.B manual - probably similar requirement with the MMG battery.

(c) Training in Signalling.  All ranks should be efficient in Semaphore. In addition, 16 men per battery should be trained to send and read Morse with a flag only.

[abowell97]

22 hours ago, david murdoch said:

 Can you post more of the dugouts - it's what is commonly known as a sangar (term still in use today) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangar_(fortification)

 

Certainly. Interesting to read that the word being used originated from it's use on the NWF. 

Here are the other two from the album:

 

From closest to furthest on the left hand side, I make out Gr. Lafferty, Walter Patrick, Gr. Hargreaves.

Unsure about the man on the right with the cigarette.

 

There may be a couple more loose images, so I'll have a look for those. 

Hope this helps. 

Edited 6 August , 2017 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

On ‎06‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 13:53, abowell97 said:

 

Certainly. Interesting to read that the word being used originated from it's use on the NWF. 

Here are the other two from the album:

 

 

From closest to furthest on the left hand side, I make out Gr. Lafferty, Walter Patrick, Gr. Hargreaves.

Unsure about the man on the right with the cigarette.

 

There may be a couple more loose images, so I'll have a look for those. 

Hope this helps. 

Interesting - as it's at Morgha close to Rawalpindi base it's most likely part of a training exercise / something to keep them busy. In the first one it appears to be under construction as you can see  couple of pieces of corrugated iron and a shovel. Is the first dugout photo you posted labelled as No.2 section, as we don't have much on them. The chap in that photo appears to have some fairly large piece of equipment in it's cover - not sure what it is. The range finders (from what I've seen) came in it's own wooden storage/kit box, and the signalling kit came in a leather pouch and scabbard for the tripod.

[abowell97]

15 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Is the first dugout photo you posted labelled as No.2 section, as we don't have much on them. 

Thanks for the info David!

 

Yes, the first image of the man standing next to the dugout with the machine gun muzzle visable is labelled as No.2 section. Both the other images are no.1 section 

(I assume the second of the three images is, as I recognise the central man as one from the signalling image, possibly the man waving the flag to the left of W.Patrick, however I'm not certain of this).

 

On a side note, another possibility for increased mobilisation in 1918 may be due to the Russian/revolutionary activity in Transcaspia around that time, seeing as the entire region was destabilised.  

Edited 8 August , 2017 by abowell97

[delta]

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks to you all

[david murdoch]

1600 Gunner William Frederick Telfer.

Have an interesting and slightly complicated research here. It’s a bit long winded, but I’m sure this is our man.

By service number likely enlistment date June 1915.

Address given on Medal Index Card

c/o Butterfield & Swire

Hong Kong,China & Japan

Wuhan, China

Shipping company founded 1866 and still in existence today internationally as Swire Group.

From this obviously working in the Far East soon after the war.

I don't see any passenger list for him travelling from UK to China, so possibly went there direct after demob in 1920.

I had a haunch he may be Scottish, but checking the records on Scotland’s People did not find any birth record or clear census return. However, there is a marriage certificate, and this comes from overseas records.

June 17^th 1935 in Peking and registered by UK Consulate.

William Frederick Kimberly Telfer, Shipping Manager, resident Ghansha married

Kathleen Francis Benington, Hong Kong Education Department, resident Hong Kong

I’m sure it must be him but gives ages as being 35, and this would make him 15 when he enlisted!

I have checked back and found various inward and outward shipping passenger lists for (both of them) and the ages match the years correctly. Also on several he lists his employer or contact as

Butterfield & Swire and later Swire!

Crossing back to Ancestry/Find my Past

Kathleen Francis Benington was born in Belfast 1900 Her father William Robinson Benington appears to have been a goods manager. On 1911 Census she was at a boarding school in Hemsworth (Near Leeds) So presuming her parents were overseas. She left UK first in 1929 to Hong Kong listed as a Crown Agent. In and out the UK to Hong Kong in 1933 listed as a teacher.

William F. K. Telfer on Ancestry has some discrepancies on several public family trees as to where born - ­either Carlisle England or Perth Scotland.  His Father Frederick James Telfer was from Stanwix Carlisle, and an Insurance man. He appears on English 1891 Census, and married 1899, then had four sons between 1900 and 1907. However, the trees have conflicting information and infer there were two brothers William Frederick Telfer born 1900 (England) and William Frederick Kimberly Telfer also born 1900 but in Perth Scotland – I find hard to believe a couple would have two sons in the same year with the same name.  On Scotland 1901 Census the father is living near Perth as a boarder and noted as Insurance Clerk with another Telfer family (presumably relations). William Telfer is shown on 1901 English Census as living with his mother and maternal Grandmother in Carlisle. The younger three brothers I have identified as being born in Perth area (parents matching). The father then emigrated to Canada via USA in 1908 travelling on his own (passenger list). Listed as English and giving the Perth address/relative as nearest contact. He may have gone out to take up a job– or he may have taken off on his own. He is shown as having died in Canada in 1940. Another of the sons is shown as having moved to Canada in 1927 (passage paid by father) and who died in Canada in 1953. His wife died in England in 1949, so it looks like she never went to Canada. I have found further ship passenger lists 1927 indicating William FK Telfer returned to UK via Canada – presumably to visit his father.  On this list, he gives his place of birth as Carlisle, England and his nationality as “Scotch” His mother was Scottish, and so I suspect he was born in Carlisle and moved to Perth as a baby with his mother sometime after 1901 Census, and grew up there.

February 1940 has he and his wife travelling 1^st class from Liverpool to Shanghi – bearing in mind the Japanese had already invaded China by then.

They are seen again returning to UK from Hong Kong in December 1945, so may have been interned by the Japanese, after they invaded Hong Kong or rounded up foreigners in China once UK and Japan went to war.

They travelled back London to Shanghi in 1947, finally returning to UK in 1951.

W F K Telfer died in London December 1954.

His wife died in Plymouth 9/2/1979.

I still need to trace where he was in 1911 Census.

Edit. Have since traced one of the brothers on the Scotland 1911 Census. Confirms all living in Perth Scotland at this time. Address 164 Windsor Terrace, Perth.  Some of the houses are still there but the higher numbers were replaced in 1926.

Mother (Head of household) four school age sons, maternal grandmother and a lodger (Father in Canada for three years by then). 

 

We have a good named photo of him, and if taken 1917/1918 he looks well older than his years (which could explain him being able to enlist so under age).

I also need to get copy of The Motorcycle for January/June 1915 as he may be listed with home town in one of the June issues. If he was in Perth he may have attested in Dundee around same time as Dowie.

I have also contacted one of the Telfer family members in Canada I think must be a nephew, and another Telfer who lives in Carlisle.

Edited 8 August , 2017 by david murdoch
added additional information.

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, delta said:

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks to you all

Stephen. Do you have by chance copies of or link to "The Motorcycle" for January to June 1915. I'm looking for  the listings of MMGS volunteers. I know from  previous threads  quite a few of the early tankers were some of the early volunteers from Coventry, you were looking at several years ago. I've never tracked down Volume 14, and that one covers the period many of the 22nd Battery men enlisted.

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear David,

Brilliant research. Well done!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[delta]

David

Maureene found the source

You can find them @

https://archive.org/search.php?query=publisher%3A"London+%3A+'The+Motor+Cycle'"&sort=-date

 

[JPJamie]

A huge thanks to my cousin Iain English who sent me a PDF file with many images.  I hope everyone can find the image below helpful as it is labeled 22nd machine gun corps.  There are many more great images of the men I have never seen.  If you click on the image the larger image is displayed. 

 

Thanks to David Murdoch for pointing out this image was taken at Eastbourne, England, most likely 1915 during training.

 

Edited 11 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

On Board the SS Beltana

 

"On the SS Beltana with lifebelts on.  We had to wear these always until out of the danger zone."

 

[JPJamie]

Grandfather writes: "Taken at Upper Thow? Murwa Hills, Rawalpindi, India July 1918"

So who was at the Khyber Pass in July 1918?

 

 

Below is almost the same group seating arrangement from above, but second (or first for that matter) shot with some hats off and an additional dog.

You get (to my count 34 men in each photograph) a slightly different view of each man...

 

Edited 10 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Tennis Group

Walter Patrick to right of James P. Jamieson who is top row third from right.

(those on the Western Front must be rolling over in their graves)

 

Edited 10 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Railway

The black part to the right of the man standing appears to be a hole in the carriage, but is an anomaly.

 

Edited 9 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[abowell97]

 

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

Fantastic photos!

I have the tennis image, and seeing your copy made me dig it out. The last time I saw it was just after I acquired the images, so I didn't know what your grandfather looked like then. Turns out my copy is an exact duplicate.

 

I recognise a couple of faces on the train image, one being the man inside the carriage, 2nd from the left (the leftmost man looks like Walter Patrick): 

The same man in another group photo, though I'm not sure of who he is. I'd have thought he'd be No.1 section though.

Thanks to you and Iain English for posting!

-Alex

Edited 9 August , 2017 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

These latest photos are excellent! Got a lot of detail in them to pick over. I'm sure Paul will be delighted when he gets back as the battery photo must have his Grandfather in there somewhere and almost everyone is pretty sharp. I see 64 + four officers. It's just about the full number that sailed on Beltana. So must include the ASC lads (badged MMGS). Most everyone you can see is wearing MMGS cap badge with the MMG lettering. Some badges look different shapes, but I think that is down to just the sun reflecting off them, but seems there are one or two plain crossed guns with no lettering. This picture looks like down on the south coast  with chalk downs and decent weather, so looks like they were camped down there, and this probably taken around same time as the "Eastbourne" photo.

I would say Max Roesher sitting on the CO's left (right looking at photo) and big Sergeant four to his left is definitely Fielder. Two,three and four to his right (left looking at the picture), second  is not wearing officers tunic or sam browne, but may be the other officer but he is neither he wearing stripes,or cuff rank and all that row are either Officers then NCOs with Lance corporals at the ends. Man with the moustache has a distinctly more military look to him, and looks like a whistle at his pocket . Possibly the original Battery Sgt Major  though you can't see any rank visible. The Sergeant next to him with glasses I had not seen before, however he also appears in the new Murwa Hills group.

The Beltana  photo, the "danger area" would be going out through the English Channel due to mines and submarines. Note on this one by the time they left UK the MMG is removed from all their cap badges thanks to the MGC!

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

These latest photos are excellent! Got a lot of detail in them to pick over. I'm sure Paul will be delighted when he gets back as the battery photo must have his Grandfather in there somewhere and almost everyone is pretty sharp. I see 64 + four officers. It's just about the full number that sailed on Beltana. So must include the ASC lads (badged MMGS). Most everyone you can see is wearing MMGS cap badge with the MMG lettering. Some badges look different shapes, but I think that is down to just the sun reflecting off them, but seems there are one or two plain crossed guns with no lettering. This picture looks like down on the south coast  with chalk downs and decent weather, so looks like they were camped down there, and this probably taken around same time as the "Eastbourne" photo.

I would say Max Roesher sitting on the CO's left (right looking at photo) and big Sergeant four to his left is definitely Fielder. Two,three and four to his right (left looking at the picture), second  is not wearing officers tunic or sam browne, but may be the other officer but he is neither he wearing stripes,or cuff rank and all that row are either Officers then NCOs with Lance corporals at the ends. Man with the moustache has a distinctly more military look to him, and looks like a whistle at his pocket . Possibly the original Battery Sgt Major  though you can't see any rank visible. The Sergeant next to him with glasses I had not seen before, however he also appears in the new Murwa Hills group.

The Beltana  photo, the "danger area" would be going out through the English Channel due to mines and submarines. Note on this one by the time they left UK the MMG is removed from all their cap badges thanks to the MGC!

 

Thanks David!  Was wondering what the "danger area" was exactly.

 

JJ

[JPJamie]

Tea with a welterweight Boxer?

My Grandfather was a boxing fan and lived directly behind where Scottish flyweight champion Walter McGowan  practiced in Hamilton, Scotland.  Grandad would often walk to watch him work out.  My Grandfather is sitting front left on this photograph and writes:

"The fellow opposite me is the champion welter weight of India - Hoisey?"

I've Google searched for "Hoisey" without success. 

 

 

Edited 10 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Eastbourne Group?

Looks like the English Channel upper right hand corner.

My Grandfather is on the right.

Thanks to David Murdoch for pointing out this is at Beachy Head. 

Eastbourne is in the distance.

 

Edited 11 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

18 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Eastbourne Group?

Looks like the English Channel upper right hand corner.

My Grandfather is on the right.

Yes  - shows they were camped right on the coast. Same area where the Battery photo was taken.There were lots of camps all over this area from early in the war. Photo below is No.1 camp at Beachy Head so is Eastbourne in the background, but shows how they would have been camped out. They are up higher ground above the camp and may be similar background. So at Beachy Head or close by.

[david murdoch]

1442 Gunner  Charles Corr Keddie

Another very interesting history !

By service number likely enlistment date mid May 1915 (age 24).

Enlisted Edinburgh – date corresponds to MMGS recruiting there at this time, and we have several consecutive service numbers all from Edinburgh/Leith who may have been friends prior to enlistment.

Address given on Medal Index Card :-

12 Shaw Street,

Edinburgh.

 Keddie was born 7^th October1890  in Edinburgh, part of a large family . He had two elder sisters, four elder brothers and one younger brother.

On 1911 census he was living in Stanwell Road Leith Edinburgh. Listed as 20 years old and a Photographic Process Operator.

Prior to WW1 he shows up being a trade union member of Amalgamated Society Of Lithographic Artists, Designers, Engravers & Process Workers

and notes profession as Lithographer.

He discharged from the army 1^st January 1920.

He was married soon after on 2^nd July 1920 to :-

Isabella Shiels Anderson  born 1922 and aged 28.

He gives age as 29 and address as 12 Shaw Street, and profession Photographic Process Operator, so he returned to his pre war profession.

1st September 1922 he relocated to Egypt with his wife. His occupation then Government Official.

He had two children

Charles Corr Keddie born 1927 overseas (presumably Egypt)

Mary Isabella born Egypt 21^st June 1930.

From ships passenger lists, the family returned to Edinburgh 22^nd August 1930, arriving from Port Said to Plymouth. He is listed as Government Official

They are seen returning to Egypt in October 1932. London to Port Said. He is listed as Civil Servant.

Charles Corr Keddie died Johannesburg South Africa 18^th August 1942 aged 52.

Found picture of his grave stone in South Africa.

His wife is seen returning to Edinburgh alone 18^th December 1942, Travelling Durban South Africa via Basra to Liverpool. Giving usual residence as Zanzibar (Tanzania).

It is possible the children remained in Africa for safety during the war.

Both children appear to have returned and settled in Scotland.

Charles Corr Keddie (son) married Elisabeth M. S. Jamieson in Leith in 1951, and had a son also Charles Corr Keddie born in Leith 1951.  Charles Corr Keddie (son) died in Leith 1976.

Keddie’s wife died in Portsoy (North of Scotland)3^rd January 1985 aged 93.

His daughter Mary died in Cullen (close to Portsoy) 5^th September 2012 aged 82.

I have found a record for a Charles Corr Keddie (grandson) married in 1975 to Sandra Grace Ross (born 1954 in Elgin) Again close to Portsoy and Cullen.

I have found no Scottish death records for this couple and since found both are on 2017 voter’s roll,  so have a  living grandson (aged 66) and maybe great grandchildren.

 

I think this is a significant breakthrough as have a chance to contact another living descendant of No.1 Section.

Also “Gunner Keddie’s” profession before and after WW1 points to him being behind many of the photographs and also the photo albums. For sure he (and possibly others) would have cameras, but more importantly he would have had the skills to develop film and print multiple copies. Being based in Rawalpindi must have had the opportunity to set up a dark room and these albums were produced “in house” rather than by a local photographer, and the likelihood more people would have had copies of these pictures.  I think now those original prints we have him to thank for, and 22nd Battery being the most photographed unit!

Edited 11 August , 2017 by david murdoch
added additional information.

[abowell97]

13 hours ago, david murdoch said:

1442 Gunner  Charles Corr Keddie

 

Great research David!

 

A good chance to make contact with another descendant of a Battery member. 

 

What you said about him developing a lot of the photos on the NWF certainly makes sense. I have photos with developing studios on the back (I think Benares and Calcutta off the top of my head) but none on the NWF, which would suggest they at least did a large proportion themselves. His background and then-future in photography would definitely put him as the most likely to be doing this for the Battery, fantastic background research! 

 

I don't have many pictures of Keddie, just the one with him dressed as a cowboy I think... Will have another look soon. He's likely on a lot of the group photos though.

 

Regards,

Alex. 

Edited 11 August , 2017 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

There are a couple more named photos of him from early on in the thread. Two different cowboy photos, and the one of him on the bike, and also one of him with the basket on his head. From these looks like he was a bit of a character and liked a joke and a laugh. The "chai wallah"  photo is a good recognisable face shot to identify him in group photos. The photos printed in Benares and especially those in Calcutta they probably got done when travelling on leave, so got their film developed there. I think quite a few of these individual photos of people would originally be printed and some sent home in letters. After they left UK they were away for four years without home leave.

I have some similar from my grandfather  - where there are small prints that probably came back in a letter but I also have the original negatives. He was in France until late 1917 then two years in Mesopotamia.