22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

Mine doesn't have an annotation either.

My mistake. My copy isn't in the best condition though (on top of being extremely small), so your note clarified who was in it, thanks.

[david murdoch]

45 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

On the subject of being under age.

We have John Girdwood and William Telfer  so far, and I'd suspect one of the Collins. I suspect but not proven yet they my have been  brothers as enlisted pretty close together  Edward Collins 1622 and Thomas Collins 1624. Tommy Collins was one who joined Tank Corps at the end and gave a c/o address in Canada on his medal card, so If I can track him down, then back track and see if I can find them together on a earlier Census return.  Edward Collin's has no address on his MIC, and they are both common names (with no middle name clues). We have named photos of T. Collins, and confirmed by the photo he sent to the Motor Cycle which notes him in the group.

Quoting myself. I have identified Thomas Collins  in the archives - younger brother of Edward. He would be 17 on enlistment and his brother 19. Gathering more information on them now.

[JPJamie]

52 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Quoting myself. I have identified Thomas Collins  in the archives - younger brother of Edward. He would be 17 on enlistment and his brother 19. Gathering more information on them now.

 

Great catch David and seems like my grandfather below has a couple of fish as well! 

 

Fishing

Edited 14 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

The Well

My grandfather writes: "The well, which can cause a lot of trouble"

 

[JPJamie]

The Two Men Behind Gilmour

An enlargement of the previous submission of Gilmour in hospital bed.

 

Edited 14 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Three with Monkey

My Grandfather is on the left.

[JPJamie]

Grand father writes: "Sgt. and Cpl in our Battery, taken near Murwa."

Would I be correct in that it appears the stripes "stand out" more than "acting" corporal stripes?

The Sergeant appears to have a Kodak "pull out" camera in his hands.

 

 

 

Edited 15 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

The corporal with two stripes and Sergeant with three. Either could be "acting" in which case they held the position temporarily with or without pay. On these tropical tunics it looks like the stripes are just tacked on  - this is common in hot climates due to the amount of washing. My grandfather was also an acting sergeant. In photo below he has stripes just pinned on to his shirtsleeves.

 

"An acting rank is a military designation allowing a commissioned or non commissioned officer to assume a rank—usually higher and usually temporary—with the pay and allowances appropriate to that grade. As such, an officer may be ordered back to the previous grade. This situation may arise when a lower-ranking officer is called upon to replace a senior officer, or fill a position higher than the current rank held When addressing an individual with an acting rank, the person should be addressed as if the full rank was held."

 

In the photo he refers to a "Sgt. and Cpl in our Battery" . As he does not note them by name implies they were another section and he was less familiar with them.

[JPJamie]

6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

The corporal with two stripes and Sergeant with three. Either could be "acting" in which case they held the position temporarily with or without pay. On these tropical tunics it looks like the stripes are just tacked on  - this is common in hot climates due to the amount of washing. My grandfather was also an acting sergeant. In photo below he has stripes just pinned on to his shirtsleeves.

 

"An acting rank is a military designation allowing a commissioned or non commissioned officer to assume a rank—usually higher and usually temporary—with the pay and allowances appropriate to that grade. As such, an officer may be ordered back to the previous grade. This situation may arise when a lower-ranking officer is called upon to replace a senior officer, or fill a position higher than the current rank held When addressing an individual with an acting rank, the person should be addressed as if the full rank was held."

 

In the photo he refers to a "Sgt. and Cpl in our Battery" . As he does not note them by name implies they were another section and he was less familiar with them.

 

Thanks David

I would never have thought of washing clothes in a tropical climate and how the dye of sewn on rank stripes would fade them. 

It's all in the details and a lot of those details are right before our eyes.  At times though, you need to know where to look! 

 

Jim

[david murdoch]

Gunner Edward Collins 1622

Gunner Thomas Collins 1624

These two I suspected were brothers, and this turns out to be the case.

Gunner Harold John Haycock 1623 got between them when enlisting. Maybe not known to them as from slightly different area. All three would almost certainly have enlisted in Coventry on the same day  - probably third week in June 1915, and at the same time as Walter Patrick 1621 then all four ended up in  22^nd Battery. Edward Collins may have returned from Canada to enlist.

The Collins brothers were part of a large family. Their parents Edward Collins and Elizabeth Spriggs had ten children, 6 daughters and 4 sons. Thomas was the second youngest, born  17^th December 1897, and  Edward the third youngest  born 12^th July 1895. Both were born in Smethwick, Staffordshire (area of Birmingham). The parents and all those siblings are found to have died in Canada (apart from one who died in infancy).

On 1911 Census they were living at 48 Exeter Road Smethwick (house still in existence), and both left school and working.

Edward was a Telegraph Messenger, and Thomas was a Pawnbrokers Apprentice. Father Edward Collins (senior) was an Iron worker.

It appears the  whole family emigrated to Canada (most likely in 1912), though some of the older siblings may have moved at later dates. They settled in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

The youngest brother Albert (born 1901) enlisted in the Canadian forces  under age in early 1918 – giving a false date of birth His record gives parents address as 217 25^th St West, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

Edward Collins was discharged 16^th November 1919. Thomas transferred to the Tank Corps in India and was discharged later, on 10^th June 1920.

Thomas is found leaving England 1^st March 1921 bound for Canada (Liverpool – St John New Brunswick) Arriving 10^th April. On his passenger declaration he states intended trade as Mechanic, and also “Returning home”, Giving his parents in Canada as contact address. So from this must have returned from India to UK mid 1920 after demob.

Thomas Collins has an address on his MIC  c/o Charles Cook Esq. Dafoe, Saskatchewan, Canada.

Checking this location it’s a tiny prairie village in the middle of nowhere (population of 15 in 2011!)

On the 1921 Canada Census both Thomas and Edward appear living as boarders in Calgary – shown as being Canadians but born in England.

Edward Collins (age 25) Immigration  date 1912 occupation Motor Mechanic.

 Annie Collins  (age 23) Immigration  date 1919

Joan Collins (age 2) born Canada

Thomas Collins (age 23) Immigration date 1921, occupation Motor Mechanic.

Thomas married Mary Jane Baley (b. 1893 Shropshire England d. 27^th February 1982 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada) in Defoe on 22^nd July 1922.

Annie Collins was Edward’s wife  born Annie Maria Florence Clarke  Coventry England.  Record appears to show she married Edward in Chilliwack, British Columbia in 1918 – something I have yet to discover how he came to be there at this time (when he should have been in India!) and Joan was their daughter.

Edward Collins died in Chilliwack, British Columbia, Canada 12^th December 1951 age 56.

Thomas Collins died in Chilliwack, British Columbia, Canada 31^st January 1954 age 56.

I am doing some further research into children/grandchildren, but these are not on public family trees online. There seems to be various people researching descendants of the Collins family.

I have contacted a lady in Canada, who has researched the Collins family tree so hopefully will be able to add to this story.

We have several identifiable photos of Thomas Collins, the individual ones noted "T Collins" as opposed to Gr. Collins as there were two of them!

Seems these two brothers were close and stuck together all their lives.

Edited 20 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[JPJamie]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 16:41, david murdoch said:

Gunner Edward Collins 1622

Gunner Thomas Collins 1624

These two I suspected were brothers, and this turns out to be the case.

Gunner Harold John Haycock 1623 got between them when enlisting. Maybe not known to them as from slightly different area. All three would almost certainly have enlisted in Coventry on the same day  - probably third week in June 1915, and at the same time as Walter Patrick 1621 then all four ended up in  22^nd Battery. Edward Collins may have returned from Canada to enlist.

The Collins brothers were part of a large family. Their parents Edward Collins and Elizabeth Spriggs had ten children, 6 daughters and 4 sons. Thomas was the second youngest, born  17^th December 1897, and  Edward the third youngest  born 12^th July 1895. Both were born in Smethwick, Staffordshire (area of Birmingham). The parents and all those siblings are found to have died in Canada (apart from one who died in infancy).

On 1911 Census they were living at 48 Exeter Road Smethwick (house still in existence), and both left school and working.

Edward was a Telegraph Messenger, and Thomas was a Pawnbrokers Apprentice. Father Edward Collins (senior) was an Iron worker.

It appears the  whole family emigrated to Canada (most likely in 1912), though some of the older siblings may have moved at later dates. They settled in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

The youngest brother Albert (born 1901) enlisted in the Canadian forces  under age in early 1918 – giving a false date of birth His record gives parents address as 217 25^th St West, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

Edward Collins was discharged 16^th November 1919. Thomas transferred to the Tank Corps in India and was discharged later, on 10^th June 1920.

Thomas is found leaving England 1^st March 1921 bound for Canada (Liverpool – St John New Brunswick) Arriving 10^th April. On his passenger declaration he states intended trade as Mechanic, and also “Returning home”, Giving his parents in Canada as contact address. So from this must have returned from India to UK mid 1920 after demob.

Thomas Collins has an address on his MIC  c/o Charles Cook Esq. Dafoe, Saskatchewan, Canada.

Checking this location it’s a tiny prairie village in the middle of nowhere (population of 15 in 2011!)

On the 1921 Canada Census both Thomas and Edward appear living as boarders in Calgary – shown as being Canadians but born in England.

Edward Collins (age 25) Immigration  date 1912 occupation Motor Mechanic.

 Annie Collins  (age 23) Immigration  date 1919

Joan Collins (age 2) born Canada

Thomas Collins (age 23) Immigration date 1921, occupation Motor Mechanic.

Thomas married Mary Jane Baley (b. 1893 Shropshire England d. 27^th February 1982 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada) in Defoe on 22^nd July 1922.

Annie Collins was Edward’s wife  born Annie Maria Florence Clarke  Coventry England.  Record appears to show she married Thomas in Chilliwack, British Columbia in 1918 – something I have yet to discover how he came to be there at this time (when he should have been in India!) and Joan was their daughter.

Edward Collins died in Chilliwack, British Columbia, Canada 12^th December 1951 age 56.

Thomas Collins died in Chilliwack, British Columbia, Canada 31^st January 1954 age 56.

I am doing some further research into children/grandchildren, but these are not on public family trees online. There seems to be various people researching descendants of the Collins family.

I have contacted a lady in Canada, who has researched the Collins family tree so hopefully will be able to add to this story.

We have several identifiable photos of Thomas Collins, the individual ones noted "T Collins" as opposed to Gr. Collins as there were two of them!

Seems these two brothers were close and stuck together all their lives.

 

 

Once again great work David!  So Dafoe (probably named after author Daniel Dafoe) is straight  north of Regina (pronounced like "red-gina," not like Regeena!)  Americans cannot pronounce the capitol a Saskatchewan properly, because it sounds like another word.   I used to live in Carlyle, Saskatchewan and was in Regina a few times.   

Edited 18 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

Once again great work David!  So Dafoe (probably named after author Daniel Dafoe) is straight  north of Regina (pronounced like "red-gina," not like Regeena!)  Americans cannot pronounce the capitol a Saskatchewan properly, because is sounds like another word.I used to live in Carlyle, Saskatchewan and was in Regina a few times.   

Dafoe is a tiny place, but it's on the railway. I think it was/is a loading point for grain from the surrounding prairie farms. I need to check the census and see if his wife's family were living in the area in the 1921 census. The address he gave for the medal index card is c/o so he must have gone there after the 1921 census and been there for a little while around 1922 to be married and to have his WW1 medals sent there. I think in all my searching there is another link between the Collins and Beylay families.

I've found now he had a daughter Bessie Isabel Collins born 4th April 1923 in Jansen, Saskatchewan, Canada  - that's the next place up the railway from Dafoe. She died 16th March1995 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. Also two sons who are not named on the public tree, but shows there were/are several grand children and great grandchildren. I found on the public family tree a note regarding Thomas Collins (actually on Edward Collins page). Referring to source material  Thomas Collins' Army Book - recorded by daughter Bessie Read - it does not elaborate. Hopefully I will get feedback from my message to the family member - it may be a diary, memoir or photo album!

Edited 16 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-8-14 at 20:00, JPJamie said:

Grand father writes: "Sgt. and Cpl in our Battery, taken near Murwa."

Would I be correct in that it appears the stripes "stand out" more than "acting" corporal stripes?

The Sergeant appears to have a Kodak "pull out" camera in his hands.

 

 

 

Left hand Sgt could well be my Grandfather. Trying not to get too excited! Have sent to my Father for a 2nd opinion. Although at age 86 I am starting to trust my own instinct more than his.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-8-14 at 17:19, david murdoch said:

Paul. Yes some cracking photos in the last week. Hopefully you will be able to identify your grandfather at last from the battery photo. 

 

The battery photo is an absolute cracker (thanks so much @JPJamie and @IEnglish) I think (90%) that my Grandfather is the seated LCpl on the left (looking at photo) of the sitting row of officers/NCOs. I am seeking a 2nd opinion - but also need to see it on proper computer not phone/tablet.

One querry - it struck me that Molony (the CO) might not be the big man in the centre of the officers row. The officer chap with the moustache and stick sitting immediately to the right (left as you look at it) of the big officer in the centre  looked to me rather more like the photos I have seen of Molony and particularly the photo of the officers of 1st R Dubs Fus pre embarkation for Gallipoli. Seams unlikely that the CO wouldn't be the central figure - but just a thought.

Best, and thanks again

Paul

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

The battery photo is an absolute cracker (thanks so much @JPJamie and @IEnglish) I think (90%) that my Grandfather is the seated LCpl on the left (looking at photo) of the sitting row of officers/NCOs. I am seeking a 2nd opinion - but also need to see it on proper computer not phone/tablet.

One querry - it struck me that Molony (the CO) might not be the big man in the centre of the officers row. The officer chap with the moustache and stick sitting immediately to the right (left as you look at it) of the big officer in the centre  looked to me rather more like the photos I have seen of Molony and particularly the photo of the officers of 1st R Dubs Fus pre embarkation for Gallipoli. Seams unlikely that the CO wouldn't be the central figure - but just a thought.

Best, and thanks again

Paul

For sure looking at the photo there are only four officers present. That row is sitting in order of importance from the centre out. I'd agree the officer with the moustache looks more like the CO in the newspaper battery photo. The chap in the centre  has Captain cuff ranks (clear enough to make out he's not a Colonel). Moloney at this time would also be Captain at this point he then became acting Major and then Major in January 1917. The big officer may be from the training establishment visiting or senior rank at the camp rather than in the battery itself - for sure the senior rank is normally centre. Looking to the left has these three men. Again you would expect highest rank nearest the officers, at a guess these are Warrant Officers. The one nearest the officers certainly Non Commissioned (by his tunic style and lack of Sam Browne, but no stripes ) - possibly W.O. but just can't see his sleeve rank. The chap with the moustache definitely looks like a regular soldier - possibly the original BSM - looks the  part! Both of them have whistles . The chap with the glasses does appear in some of the India photos, so one of the original NCOs.

 

Edited 16 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

The battery photo is an absolute cracker (thanks so much @JPJamie and @IEnglish) I think (90%) that my Grandfather is the seated LCpl on the left (looking at photo) of the sitting row of officers/NCOs. I am seeking a 2nd opinion - but also need to see it on proper computer not phone/tablet.

One querry - it struck me that Molony (the CO) might not be the big man in the centre of the officers row. The officer chap with the moustache and stick sitting immediately to the right (left as you look at it) of the big officer in the centre  looked to me rather more like the photos I have seen of Molony and particularly the photo of the officers of 1st R Dubs Fus pre embarkation for Gallipoli. Seams unlikely that the CO wouldn't be the central figure - but just a thought.

Best, and thanks again

Paul

 

Paul:

When I first saw this picture from Iain I thought for sure your Grandfather was in there somewhere.  Really happy you have an image(s) of him finally.  In the enlargement David posted above, the man in the middle with the moustache, is definitely trying to look like Kitchener. 

 

I just rechecked the Battery image, and only one man is wearing (assuming) prescription spectacles as seen in the enlargement above.  I would think, good eyesight for this Battery would be a requirement.  Any comments on that?  Also, please explain "warrant officer."  What I know when it comes to military jargon and rank is from movies.   So I know "you salute the rank, not the person", from Band of Brothers...that was a great scene.

Edited 16 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

Paul:

When I first saw this picture from Iain I thought for sure your Grandfather was in there somewhere.  Really happy you have an image(s) of him finally.  In the enlargement David posted above, the man in the middle with the moustache, is definitely trying to look like Kitchener. 

 

I just rechecked the Battery image, and only one man is wearing (assuming) prescription spectacles as seen in the enlargement above.  I would think, good eyesight for this Battery would be a requirement.  Any comments on that?  Also, please explain "warrant officer."  What I know when it comes to military jargon and rank is from movies.   So I know "you salute the rank, not the person", from Band of Brothers...that was a great scene.

 Warrant  officer WO1 and WO2 are ranks above NCOs but below officers as they are not commissioned. It's a rank rather than a title. The Battery Sergeant Major was normally a W.O. possibly Armourer Sergeant Major and Quartermaster Sergeant ie responsible positions. In the MMGS early on at least, they transferred in experienced soldiers to certain positions, as basically everyone else were right off the street.

 

"A warrant officer (WO) is an officer in a military organisation who is designated an officer by a warrant, as distinguished from a commissioned officer who is designated an officer by a commission, and a non-commissioned officer who is designated an officer, often by virtue of seniority".

 

In the US a Warrant Officer is a commissioned rank.

[JPJamie]

Loudon & Bartholomew

I don't find Bartholomew listed in the 1st section, but wondering which section he is in.

Overexposed in the center of the image.

 

Edited 17 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

"One of the Batty Fellows"

(unknown)

 

Edited 17 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

"This fellow is in my section and comes from Musselburgh, near Edinburgh"

(unknown)

 

Edited 17 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

"Identities Unknown"

Not sure but man on left may be Walter Patrick.

 

[JPJamie]

"This photo was taken in town, Kohat, after firing. I think this is my gun but am not certain but it is our officer standing in front."

No faces here, but worth it for the officer's uniform.

 

[JPJamie]

"Taken on town. Cleaning the guns after firing! Note the crowds of natives in the back."

Very poor for facial recognition, but Indian and British officers.

 

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

Loudon & Bartholomew

I don't find Bartholomew listed in the 1st section, but wondering which section he is in.

Overexposed in the center of the image.

 

Gunner (Acting Corporal) James Arthur Bartholomew 79566 MGC(M) He was one of the group of later MGC incomers/replacements. He received BWM and GSM/Clasp. He looks pretty young, and did not have previous service elsewhere.

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

"This fellow is in my section and comes from Musselburgh, near Edinburgh"

(unknown)

 

Not sure who he is but will try and work out by elimination. We have a group of seven known to be from Edinburgh and area. We have identifiable photos of most of them, and some have addresses on their medal index cards who we can discount. Possible match  at the moment is James Lindsey 2410 He was from Dalkeith (from his Medal Index Card), and I found him previously on the 1911 census at the same address. 28 year old Bank Teller then so 32 when he enlisted, and maybe 34 by the time this photo was taken. Dalkeith is a separate place south of Musselburgh, but only about 10 minutes drive.