22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[abowell97]

21 hours ago, david murdoch said:

 Nice information!  I had him on my MMGS list but not connected to Walter until now. His service record survives and in good condition - his record page is very well filled out and legible. He was Gunner 2712 MMGS/MGC(Motors)/MGC (Heavy Section) and then 200573 Tank Corps. He enlisted 29/11/1915. Arrived France 10/9/1916. He spent some time at MGC base depot at Camiers, and posted very briefly to 13th MMG Battery (in the field), then C Battalion Heavy Branch (Tanks). Renumbered Private 200573 into Tank Corps and served with C Coy. 3rd (L) Battalion Tank Corps. Discharged 1/2/1919.

Ah, thanks for that David!

A bit off topic, I know, but I was surprised when I found out he'd applied for the MMGC. I do have his medal card, however some records list him as MMGC, some as Royal Field Artillery, so wasn't sure which he'd been involved with. Thanks for the clarification though!

-Alex.

[pjwmacro]

Best wishes for 2018 to all users of the GWF and followers of this thread, and particularly to the descendants of those who served in 22 Motor Machine Gun Battery, and all Motor Machine Gunners.

 

Paul

[pjwmacro]

Been doing some further work on the soldiers of 22 Bty, including 1529 Gunner Robert P Malcolm, whom David Murdoch listed as a "probable"- not definite member of the Battery. ( @David - I cannot remember why you were uncertain about him?)

If I have found the correct Robert Malcolm, then he appears in the 1901 census as living in Easter Rd, Leith. He was born 1895 in Leith to Robert (b 1861 in Kinrosshire, a Grocer and Wine Merchant) and Mary LG (b 1865 in Edinburgh). Also on the census are 3 sisters, Jeannie G (b 1890), Mary E (b 1892) and Maggie G (b1895 twin??). Robert and Mary also had an adopted daughter Cashalia M Jess (b 1882).

 

Regards, Paul 

[david murdoch]

16 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 Been doing some further work on the soldiers of 22 Bty, including 1529 Gunner Robert P Malcolm, whom David Murdoch listed as a "probable"- not definite member of the Battery. ( @David - I cannot remember why you were uncertain about him?)

If I have found the correct Robert Malcolm, then he appears in the 1901 census as living in Easter Rd, Leith. He was born 1895 in Leith to Robert (b 1861 in Kinrosshire, a Grocer and Wine Merchant) and Mary LG (b 1865 in Edinburgh). Also on the census are 3 sisters, Jeannie G (b 1890), Mary E (b 1892) and Maggie G (b1895 twin??). Robert and Mary also had an adopted daughter Cashalia M Jess (b 1882).

 

Regards, Paul 

Paul. That's him. I have his birth certificate from Scotlands People born 11th August 1894. Robert Philip Malcolm and Maggie Gibbons Malcolm his twin sister. The sister died 175 Easter Road, Leith in 1950 - on her death certificate notes her father was still alive, and Robert was the informant. I have him on the 1911 Census aged 16 still living with family at Easter Road, and noted as a law clerk. Robert Philip Malcolm died 17/12/1965 in Aberdour (Fife) age 71. He was single and a law firm cashier.

Those on the Battery roster still in blue  were listed as "probable" as not named in photos or in writing ie GSM roll as being 22nd. I'm pretty sure all those "probable"  are 22nd Battery members as they are in the BWM only roll all together with the known members. They are the ones who never received a GSM/Clasp. His service number fits right in with the Leith contingent, and discharge date fits.

Edited 3 January , 2018 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 03/01/2018 at 00:41, david murdoch said:

Paul. That's him. I have his birth certificate from Scotlands People born 11th August 1894. Robert Philip Malcolm and Maggie Gibbons Malcolm his twin sister. The sister died 175 Easter Road, Leith in 1950 - on her death certificate notes her father was still alive, and Robert was the informant. I have him on the 1911 Census aged 16 still living with family at Easter Road, and noted as a law clerk. Robert Philip Malcolm died 17/12/1965 in Aberdour (Fife) age 71. He was single and a law firm cashier.

Those on the Battery roster still in blue  were listed as "probable" as not named in photos or in writing ie GSM roll as being 22nd. I'm pretty sure all those "probable"  are 22nd Battery members as they are in the BWM only roll all together with the known members. They are the ones who never received a GSM/Clasp. His service number fits right in with the Leith contingent, and discharge date fits.

Thanks David. More good stuff.

I couldn't find either of the death records, but i'll re-search within narrower boundaries. I'm assuming Maggie was single / childless (I wonder if Gibbons is her Mothers maiden name?) if Robert notified the death, and I cannot find a marriage record. I've also searched for marriage records for Jeanie G and Mary E.  The only possible I came up with was Jeanie  Gilchris who married William James Clements in 1914 at Penninghame - so that might be an avenue for descendants - if a longshot!

Hope all well

Paul

[david murdoch]

12 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Thanks David. More good stuff.

I couldn't find either of the death records, but i'll re-search within narrower boundaries. I'm assuming Maggie was single / childless (I wonder if Gibbons is her Mothers maiden name?) if Robert notified the death, and I cannot find a marriage record. I've also searched for marriage records for Jeanie G and Mary E.  The only possible I came up with was Jeanie  Gilchris who married William James Clements in 1914 at Penninghame - so that might be an avenue for descendants - if a longshot!

Hope all well

Paul

Paul. I have both death certificates on file from Scotlands People. Robert was listed as single meaning he never married. Maggie was also listed as single, meaning she never married either. She is given as school teacher (retired). Their parents were Robert Malcolm and Mary Laidlaw Malcolm (Ms Gibbons). The older sisters were Jane Gibbons Malcolm b.1890 - d.1958. She died in hospital in Edinburgh, but resided in Aberdour, also single/never married and retired from law firm. Mary Evelyn Malcom b.1891- d.1979 I did not find a death certificate for her but she's listed as buried in Aberdour Cemetery, Fife, Scotland under her maiden name, so I suspect also never married. 

[pjwmacro]

Thanks David. Doesn't look like we'll find descendants for Robert then. Unless the adopted daughter (Castalia M Jess) married. I assumed Jess was her birth name (slightly surprising if she is adopted) ,but she is listed as "help" on the census with no indication of married or single - so it could be a married name. Or more likely she would have married later.

Incidentally - are Jeanie and Jane often used interchangeably in Scotland? The census (transcript!) definitely lists the eldest natural daughter as Jeanie G, rather than Jane Gibbons.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

@david murdoch David. Do you have evidence that would suggest 1615 Gnr Norman Smeal was a Scot?

 

The only possible I can find at present is a Norman Gray Smeal b 1883 in Pollockshaws, Glasgow to John (and Mary?) Smeal - John was a Commercial Traveller. The 1891 census records a Norman Smeal (b 1883 in Glasgow) as living  with his grandparents (Fountain and Hannah Clarbour) in Bothwell Lancs. I think he was educated at High Ackworth School, Yorks between about 1891-and 1898 - his address is given as 6 Kelvin Drive, Glasgow. The 1901 census records Norman as living with his parents in Maryhill, Glasgow, occupation given as Clerk. 2 younger brothers are listed as Albert H (b 1892) and John C (b 1895). There is a possible marriage for Norman in Q3 1920 to a Laura M Gurnett in Whitby Yorks.

 

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

@david murdoch David. Do you have evidence that would suggest 1615 Gnr Norman Smeal was a Scot?

 

The only possible I can find at present is a Norman Gray Smeal b 1883 in Pollockshaws, Glasgow to John (and Mary?) Smeal - John was a Commercial Traveller. The 1891 census records a Norman Smeal (b 1883 in Glasgow) as living  with his grandparents (Fountain and Hannah Clarbour) in Bothwell Lancs. I think he was educated at High Ackworth School, Yorks between about 1891-and 1898 - his address is given as 6 Kelvin Drive, Glasgow. The 1901 census records Norman as living with his parents in Maryhill, Glasgow, occupation given as Clerk. 2 younger brothers are listed as Albert H (b 1892) and John C (b 1895). There is a possible marriage for Norman in Q3 1920 to a Laura M Gurnett in Whitby Yorks.

 

Regards, Paul

Paul. I'm pretty sure that's our man. His birth and death certs are on Scotlands people, but no marriage cert( due to being married in England) However his wife is named on his death certificate Laura Melita Gurnett. He died in Glasgow in 1938 aged 55. registered by brother John.  This brother served in WW1 and was Lieutenant in RNVR and MiD.

[david murdoch]

Paul. There are a number of other members of the Battery who were Scottish in addition to the ones identified previously. There are some I've looked at briefly on Scotlands People. I will go through the battery roster and pick them out. I've been busy populating my main MMGS spreadsheet (trying to get too side tracked by interesting stories). At the moment just at a rough estimate at least 30% of the MMGS other ranks were Scottish. My intention in future is to note everyone's place of origin. At the same time I'm flagging everyone who ended up in the Tank Corps either as an other rank transfer or commissioned. Especially among the early numbers there is a high percentage of commissions both to MGC(M) and to Tank Corps as well as many other individual units. As I look into these it's adding to the casualty list. 

[pjwmacro]

On 06/01/2018 at 02:08, david murdoch said:

Paul. I'm pretty sure that's our man. His birth and death certs are on Scotlands people, but no marriage cert( due to being married in England) However his wife is named on his death certificate Laura Melita Gurnett. He died in Glasgow in 1938 aged 55. registered by brother John.  This brother served in WW1 and was Lieutenant in RNVR and MiD.

 

Thanks David. Certainly sounds as if he is our man. I was really wondering whether you could place him amongst the Socttish emlistee's group.  But the Norman I have found is clearly a Scot and the only one I can find so I am pretty sure he  is our man. I was also wondering, given the 11 year age gap between John and Mary, and the 9 year gap between first and second children ,  whether Mary might be John' s 2nd wife'- and Norman's step Mother rather than natural. Presumably his birth certificate would settle this one way or another.

Best, Paul

23 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. There are a number of other members of the Battery who were Scottish in addition to the ones identified previously. There are some I've looked at briefly on Scotlands People. I will go through the battery roster and pick them out. I've been busy populating my main MMGS spreadsheet (trying to get too side tracked by interesting stories). At the moment just at a rough estimate at least 30% of the MMGS other ranks were Scottish. My intention in future is to note everyone's place of origin. At the same time I'm flagging everyone who ended up in the Tank Corps either as an other rank transfer or commissioned. Especially among the early numbers there is a high percentage of commissions both to MGC(M) and to Tank Corps as well as many other individual units. As I look into these it's adding to the casualty list. 

 Interesting.

[abowell97]

I can't remember exactly, but I seem to recall reading that those who served in India weren't entitled to the Victory Medal as it wasn't classed as a theatre of war. Was this the case?

 

I ask, as among some of my Great Uncles (Walter Patrick's son) belongings, there were a pair of military award ribbons. Only recently did I look up what they were for, and one was for the British War Medal, and one was the Victory Medal. I'd assume they were W Patrick's, but I wasn't sure if he was entitled to both...

 

Thanks,

Alex.

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

I can't remember exactly, but I seem to recall reading that those who served in India weren't entitled to the Victory Medal as it wasn't classed as a theatre of war. Was this the case?

 

I ask, as among some of my Great Uncles (Walter Patrick's son) belongings, there were a pair of military award ribbons. Only recently did I look up what they were for, and one was for the British War Medal, and one was the Victory Medal. I'd assume they were W Patrick's, but I wasn't sure if he was entitled to both...

 

Thanks,

Alex.

You are  correct - most of the 22nd Battery men only received the British War Medal due to serving only in India during the war, and some also a General Service Medal for North West Frontier 1919. For sure Walter Patrick only received a BWM and not a Victory medal. These medal ribbons possibly belonged to his brother Leonard as he was entitled to both BWM and VM. I have both their medal index cards.

David

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, abowell97 said:

I can't remember exactly, but I seem to recall reading that those who served in India weren't entitled to the Victory Medal as it wasn't classed as a theatre of war. Was this the case?

 

I ask, as among some of my Great Uncles (Walter Patrick's son) belongings, there were a pair of military award ribbons. Only recently did I look up what they were for, and one was for the British War Medal, and one was the Victory Medal. I'd assume they were W Patrick's, but I wasn't sure if he was entitled to both...

 

Thanks,

Alex.

 

Alex - I seam to recall you saying you didn't have the medals - if you had the medals themselves then you can tell which brother they belonged to as they should be engraved with number, initials and regiment/corps in addition to name. As David says, Victory medal wasn't awarded for service in India. My grandfather got his through undergoing pilot training in Egypt - which somewhat ironically was counted as a theatre of war.  The fact that neither Walter Patrick,  your Great,Great Uncle, or James Petrie Jamieson, James's grandfather, got IGSM with NWF 1919 bar, suggests both were detached from 22 Bty, possibly somewhere else in India, by May 1919, when the 3rd Afghan War kicked off.

Best Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 06/01/2018 at 02:08, david murdoch said:

Paul. I'm pretty sure that's our man. His birth and death certs are on Scotlands people, but no marriage cert( due to being married in England) However his wife is named on his death certificate Laura Melita Gurnett. He died in Glasgow in 1938 aged 55. registered by brother John.  This brother served in WW1 and was Lieutenant in RNVR and MiD.

 

David

 

Norman Gray Smeal's wife, Laura Melita Gurnett, was born 1890 in Liverpool. In 1901 she was living with an Aunt and Uncle in Bishop Auckland, Durham. In the 1911 census she is living in a Drs household in  Hornsey, Middx working as a Dispenser. She died in 1947.

 

So far as I can see Norman and Laura had 2 children. First a daughter, Melita Dorothy Louise Smeal b 16 Nov 1922, died Q2 1999 (reg May) in Yorkshire. And a son, John Lumsdaine Smeal, b 1924, died Leeds, Q4 1953. Looks as if Laura and her children returned to Yorkshire after Normans death. So far as I can see, neither Melita or John married/had children, so chance of descendants would be through Norman's nephews/nieces if his brothers Arthur and John had children.  Do you know if either did so?

 

Best, Paul

[abowell97]

13 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Alex - I seam to recall you saying you didn't have the medals - if you had the medals themselves then you can tell which brother they belonged to as they should be engraved with number, initials and regiment/corps in addition to name.

 

I don't have the medals themselves, just the ribbons on their own. Those and a metal South Staffordshire cap badge, which I would also assume is Leonard's. 

- Alex.

Edited 9 January , 2018 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

7 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

I don't have the medals themselves, just the ribbons on their own. Those and a metal South Staffordshire cap badge, which I would also assume is Leonard's. 

- Alex.

Alex. I see nothing in Leonard's record which suggests S Staffs. He joined MMGS and transfered into Tank Corps when that formed. Frustratingly cannot read the entry on his conduct sheet! Best Paul 

[pjwmacro]

Reference Gunner 1623 Harold John HAYCOCK. I can find at least 3 possibles :

• My favourite: b 1894 in West Ham / Stratford Essex. Son of Augustus J and Amy B Haycock. By the 1911 census is recorded as living in Allesly, Warks with his Uncle & Aunt (Hitchins) and working as a Motorworks, Fitters Apprentice.
• 2nd favourite was born in 1894 in Leicester to Sarah Haycock, who appears to have been widowed by the1901 census. Harold listed as "Harold" not "Harold J"
• 3rd was b Kidderminster 1892 and is another "Harold" not "Harold J". Parents James & Harriet Haycock. Appears on both 1901 and 1911 census.
• There are others

Grateful if any forum member might have some information which might help narrow down and identify better Gnr Harold Haycock's origins and potential descendants.

Best, Paul

[david murdoch]

49 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Reference Gunner 1623 Harold John HAYCOCK. I can find at least 3 possibles :

• My favourite: b 1894 in West Ham / Stratford Essex. Son of Augustus J and Amy B Haycock. By the 1911 census is recorded as living in Allesly, Warks with his Uncle & Aunt (Hitchins) and working as a Motorworks, Fitters Apprentice.
• 2nd favourite was born in 1894 in Leicester to Sarah Haycock, who appears to have been widowed by the1901 census. Harold listed as "Harold" not "Harold J"
• 3rd was b Kidderminster 1892 and is another "Harold" not "Harold J". Parents James & Harriet Haycock. Appears on both 1901 and 1911 census.
• There are others

Grateful if any forum member might have some information which might help narrow down and identify better Gnr Harold Haycock's origins and potential descendants.

Best, Paul

Paul. I have 1623 Harold John Haycock as the one born in Essex and working in Coventry when he enlisted. He managed to get in between the Collins brothers when they enlisted, but not sure if they were known to each other. Here's my (incomplete) list of locations for battery members. Some are direct from medal cards as they returned to former homes, some worked back to where they were at 1911 Census, or where they were born from birth certificates. One or two from surviving service records.

903	A/Sgt.	Percy Butt	Birmingham
1068	Gunner	John Travell Maton Gough	King's Norton, Worcestershire
1239	Gunner	Alexander Carmichael
1276	Gunner	George Learmouth Harkness	Edinburgh
1368	Gunner	Alexander Cunningham Young
1390	Gunner	Thomas Boulton	Liverpool
1397	Gunner	James May Clark
1408	Gunner	James Baldie Draper	Falkirk
1422	Gunner	William Ferguson Bennett	Newtonards, County Down
1439	Gunner	Harry Hargreaves
1441	Gunner	Alexander Kilgour	Leith, Edinburgh
1442	Gunner	Charles Croll Keddie	Leith, Edinburgh
1443	Gunner	Robert Louden	Scottish probably Edinburgh
1445	Gunner	David Griffith Lawrie	Edinburgh
1529	Gunner	Robert Philip Malcolm	Leith, Edinburgh
1565	A/Cpl.	James Petrie Jamieson	Dysart ,Fife
1567	Gunner	William Lafferty
1570	Gunner	Reginald Moss
1587	A/Sgt.	Sydney John Powell
1591	Sgt.	Joseph Reginald Slater	Liverpool
1592	Cpl.	Arthur Sutcliffe	Hartwith, Yorkshire
1594	Gunner	David Summers
1599	Cpl.  A/Sgt	Thomas Stewart
1600	Gunner	William Frederick Telfer	Carlisle
1604	Cpl.  A/WO.2	Albert Ward	Huddersfield
1609	Cpl.	Ernest Warburton	Rock Ferry, Birkenhead
1615	Gunner	Norman Smeal	Glasgow
1618	Gunner	Alexander Morrison Dowie	Dunfermline,Fife
1621	A/Cpl.	Walter Patrick	Tipton, Staffordshire
1622	Gunner	Edward Collins	Smethwick, Staffordshire
1623	Gunner	Harold John Haycock	Stratford, Essex
1624	Gunner	Thomas Collins	Smethwick, Staffordshire
1636	Gunner	John Alexander Galt	Scottish probably Glasgow
1641	Gunner	Alex Chisholm	Aberchirder, Banffshire
1644	Gunner	James Gibson Hepburn	Arbroath, Angus
1645	Gunner	Hector McDonald	Scottish
1647	Gunner	Archibald Joseph Purves	Edinburgh
1650	Gunner	Charles Thomson
1652	Sgt.	William Welsh
1658	Cpl.  A/Sgt	Ernest William Macro
1660	Gunner	James Muir Roger
1721	Gunner	John Peat
1751	Gunner	Edward Dennys Losco Walton	Nottingham
1753	Gunner	Ralph Henry Weston
1875	Gunner	Harry Young
1878	Gunner	James George Warren Tyler	West Ham, Essex
2220	Sgt.	Alfred A.T. Barton
2298	Gunner	Harry Edward Laws	Norwich
2370	Gunner	Charles Joseph McDonald	Edinburgh
2398	A/Sgt.	Philip Bolger
2400	Gunner	James Alexander Lyon	Scottish
2410	A/Cpl.	James Lindsay	Dalkeith, Midlothian
2419	Gunner	George Botterill
2420	Gunner	Allan Gilmour	Likely Scottish
MGC(M)
113344	Private	William Burke	Doncaster
163649	Private	Arthur Fovargue	London
118816	Private	George Norman Burns	Falkirk
163654	Gunner	William Lobley
79566	Gunner	James Arthur Bartholomew
68955	Gunner	William James Hitchcock
19847	Private	William John Jones
163651	Gunner	John William Rigg
163655	Gunner	Thomas Wilson
62542	Private	Thomas Garrity	Glasgow
61542	Gunner	Joseph Walker	Stoke on Trent
191854	Gunner	Thomas Lloyd Williams
61694	Gunner	John Allen
10861	Private	John B Adams
ASC
M2/106170	A/Sgt	Walter Rennie Kellett	Walton on Thames
M2/100503	Sgt.	Alfred James Fielder	London
M2/102138	Private	Harry Albert Cutler
M2/097864	Private	John Girdwood	Wishaw, Lanarkshire
M2/115535	Private	Edgar William Davis
M2/103063	Private	John Thornton Duncan	Kirkoswald, Cumbria
M2/101516	Private	William Arthur Cordwell
Unidentified
		Ross (Banker)
		Whitfield
		Gnr Parker
		Frank Taylor RAMC
		J. Thomson RAMC

[pjwmacro]

23 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Here's my (incomplete) list of locations for battery members.

David

Many thanks. Very useful. I can confirm 1658 Ernest William Macro was born in London, West Hackney. His parents remained in London until the war. Post war he moved to Eye /Peterborough - as per the address on the reverse of his MIC. He remained in that area until his death in 1974.

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

Just found this clipping while reading through an old thread on Coventry and the MMGS. 

Three Collins brothers. Gunner Edward Collins 1622 MMGS and Gunner Thomas Collins 1623 MMGS( later 321476 Tank Corps) and Sgt Charles Collins ASC(MMGS) all joined up on the same day 10/6/1915 in Coventry per the Midland Daily Telegraph of that day along with Gunner Harold John Haycock 1623 MMGS and F.Waddington ASC(MMGS). The three Gunners stayed together and served in India with 22nd MMG Battery. I presume as they all enlisted through the MMGS recruiting system the two ASC would likely be fitters or artificers and assigned to an MMG battery - Narrowed down to two Frank Warringtons so far. Haycock was from Essex, but living and working as a fitter in a Coventry motor works. The Collins parents and some of the family  had emigrated to Canada before WW1. Edward Collins possibly returned to UK to enlist in MMGS. The two younger Collins brothers moved to Canada after the war working as mechanics and set up a motorcycle delivery service. In WW2 Tom Collins served in Canada training motorcycle dispatch riders and then after the war as a civilian running military vehicle repair depot. Hoping to get a better copy of this newspaper cutting, but now have specific enlistment date for these three.

Edited 11 January , 2018 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 11/01/2018 at 10:42, david murdoch said:

Hoping to get a better copy of this newspaper cutting, but now have specific enlistment date for these three.

Thanks David.

Saw you ask on the Coventry thread. I too would be keen to see a better copy of the clipping.

There isn't any indication that Sgt Charles Collins or Frank Waddington served with 22 Bty is there?

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 11/01/2018 at 10:42, david murdoch said:

 

 

1636 John Alexander GALT

Looks as if he was an under age enlistment. He signed up mid Jun 1915, just after his 17th birthday. He was born 11Jun 1898 at 8 Gourlay St, St Rollox, Glasgow (Scotland's People 644/6911). Parents were Robert James Galt (Engine fitter,) and Margaret Rutherford Galt nee Robertson (who had married on 25 Jun 1897). I cannot find them on the 1901 census (wonder if the parents emigrated to S Africa) because on the 1911 census John is living with his Aunt and Uncle Thomas Spence and Emily Mary Galt in Stoke Newington. A 1 year old niece, Agnes Annie, Galt, (John Alexander's brother?) is also resident at the address and is listed as born in Transvaal Germiston.

John discharged from the Army on 1 Jan 1920, only listed for BWM, and there is a possible marriage to Margareta Lena Stewart in 1920 (Scotland's People 685/5212). I can find no birth records for Margareta, no death records for her or John (although there are some possibles forJohn) and no records of children - again I wonder if they headed overseas?

 

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

6 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Thanks David.

Saw you ask on the Coventry thread. I too would be keen to see a better copy of the clipping.

There isn't any indication that Sgt Charles Collins or Frank Waddington served with 22 Bty is there?

Regards, Paul

 Looking at all possible F. Waddingtons in Army Service Corps. He would have had an M2/###### service number - identified him today as M2/105282 A/Sgt Frank Waddington  he has 14/15 Star (embarked 28/7/1915 France), BWM/VM and also GSM/NWFF 1919! Discharged 8/1/1920. He was 15th MMG Battery (actually noted on the GSM roll). His embark to France and discharge date matches other known members of 15th Battery. So looks like he was  probably a fitter/mechanic with them for all of his service. I have a group of 15th Battery being discharged (in India) a week or so after the 22nd lads. 

Home address Bradford on his MIC.

There are lots of Charles Collins ASC, but he was for sure Charles Collins was M2/105281 as on the BWM/VM next to Waddington. He was discharged SWB 6/9/1917 due to sickness. I've found his service number links his War Service Gratuity to the Canadian records. It notes he was ASC MT attd. MMGS but not which unit. I've still to download all, but it shows he was living in Canada before the war and travelled back to UK to enlist, and then returned to Canada December 1919. I will check again as I suspect Edward Collins also returned from Canada to enlist - and I presume they returned to enlist specifically in MMGS. Charles was a good bit older than the others so will find him now on Canadian Census and see what his trade was.

 

Edit. Little bit off topic, but clarified he was not a member of 22nd Battery.

Now traced Charles Collins  b. 1883 d. 1948 (I was aware of him before by name from research on the brothers, but not his war service). I have since found census and service records for him. In 1911 Census he was noted as a chauffeur.  He joined ASC(MMGS) same day as his brothers. Gave occupation as motor mechanic. Also on his attestation had prior military experience (South Africa1902) with Imperial Yeomanry (when he attested in 1901 he gave occupation as fitter). He was at Bisley from 7/8/1915 then went to France 12/3/1916 (which may be possibly 8th L.A.B) though not noted on service record. After three months he was taken ill, and then returned to UK 27/6/1916. There is a large amount of medical paperwork,  he but was finally discharged as unfit 6/9/1917. His record states he had bilharzia haematobium (blood flukes) deemed not curable (at that time) and this was determined  by the medical board to have been contracted during his service in South Africa.

 

Edited 12 January , 2018 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 28/06/2017 at 02:48, david murdoch said:

"Rangefinder + taker. This instrument gives the exact range of any object up to 20,000 yds away"

This image seemed more professional, and a company it is stamped on the back as "J.T.M. Gough", which I can only assume is the company used to develop the image, as it has a symbol indicating it was done in India. It's a large, high quality copy so I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few people already had this one. 

The equipment is a Barr & Stroud rangefinder and tripod - for some reason this picture seems familiar, and I'm sure I've seen it before! http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/acc-rangefinder.htm

 

He is  Gunner John Travell Maton Gough 1068. He's on the BWM only roll in among the 22nd Battery names. He never got a GSM/clasp, but 22nd for sure  - check out his 22MMGS shoulder title! 

Baptised 15 Sep 1895 - Dinton, Wiltshire, England - died 28 Aug 1921 aged 26 at British Station Hospital, Murree, India! No CWWG listing for him, but he had discharged from army 72/03/1920. With a name like that easy to find on the archives - he was at Birmingham University 1912-1913. He had a sister Irene Alberta Ingeretha Maton Gough.

 

 

 

An Irene Alberta Ingeretha Maton Gough was executor of her father's will in1940. The father was John Travell Gough of Hinxton Cambridgeshire (I am guessing that JMT Gough's mother was a Maton? Possibly Ellen Maton?). An Irene Ingeretha Maton Gough (possibly born 1905, Windsor, Berks) married in Cambridgeshire in1940 to a John S Ellard (possibly b 1894, Northants, possibly d 1961). I can find no record of children, or of Irene's death. Any help to confirm this, and conclusively link these people to John Travell Maton Gough of 22 MMG Bty would be appreciated. Are there any descendants out there?

Regards, Paul