22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[abowell97]

4 hours ago, JPJamie said:

"Identities Unknown"

Not sure but man on left may be Walter Patrick.

 

 

Certainly is. A duplicate one of the pictures of the PT Instructor Training I put up a while ago.

 

I wouldn't have thought anyone outside the PT Instructor Class would've had pictures of it.

Edited 17 August , 2017 by abowell97

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

Certainly is. A duplicate one of the pictures of the PT Instructor Training I put up a while ago.

 

I wouldn't have thought anyone outside the PT Instructor Class would've had pictures of it.

 

Yes!  I missed you had posted this, but it is another duplicate.

 

JJ

Edited 18 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Major's Motorcycle and Sidecar

Grandfather writes: "J Girdwood and a Sgt in the Major's side car."

Paul: you commented on a picture of a woman with a dog obscuring her face in this same motorcycle and sidecar.

The propeller in front is in both images, though not as obvious in this one.

 

Edited 18 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Grandfather writes: "Pontoon bridge near Pashawar"

Anyone know what this vehicle is, where manufactured etc.?

This is probably the Bara River.

Peshawar is the correct spelling.

 

Edited 18 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[abowell97]

11 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Major's Motorcycle and Sidecar

Grandfather writes: "J Girdwood and a Sgt in the Major's side car."

Paul: you commented on a picture of a woman with a dog obscuring her face in this same motorcycle and sidecar.

The propeller in front is in both images, though not as obvious in this one.

 

 

By the looks of it, it's Sgt. Butt, going off this photo, he's in the middle.

 

As for the armoured truck, I can't seem to find anything on it. There's only a couple of other image of it on the internet, and that has no description outside the the fact that it's in India in 1917, so it may well have been a standard transport vehicle up-armoured in the field and not something that was produced in numbers. 

Edited 18 August , 2017 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

The armoured car is a locally produced effort - there were various types, basically some available car or lorry chassis with sheet steel cladding (not true armoured plate) used by the various A.M.B units. Photo below are the Rolls Royce based cars belonging to 1st A.M.B based in Peshwar, and who were at Parachinar. Noting in the other photo the car has solid steel wheels not spokes, but could be a later upgrade.

[MaureenE]

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Royal Tank Corps https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Royal_Tank_Corps#Armoured_Motor_Batteries_and_Armoured_Motor_Brigades_MGC_1915-1921 contains some links to images of early armoured cars, including the following from the  Tank Museum, http://web.archive.org/web/20080212104358/http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/newsart1002.html probably the same cars as David has posted above

Cheers

Maureen

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

By the looks of it, it's Sgt. Butt, going off this photo, he's in the middle.

 

 

 

Spot on it's Butt for sure. Again as he's just mentioned as "a Sgt." and not by name implies he was in a different section. The bike I think was also a Clyno, just with a civilian type sidecar. Fielder mentioned in the newspaper that the solo bikes were Triumphs.

[david murdoch]

48 minutes ago, Maureene said:

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Royal Tank Corps https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Royal_Tank_Corps#Armoured_Motor_Batteries_and_Armoured_Motor_Brigades_MGC_1915-1921 contains some links to images of early armoured cars, including the following from the  Tank Museum, http://web.archive.org/web/20080212104358/http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/newsart1002.html probably the same cars as David has posted above

Cheers

Maureen

I've seen the photo of the Straker Squire armoured cars (in the link) titled as 11th AMB "The 11th Armoured Motor Battery (AMB) was created in Ambala, India, in 1915. The battery consisted of three Straker-Squire Armoured Cars, plus support elements After the Great War, the three mentioned Straker-Squire were replaced by three Austin Armoured Cars of the 4th series, proceeding from the Middle East."

This is the unit Dowie went to after being commissioned in India. He did not qualify a  GSM/clasp for NWFF 1919, so presumably was elsewhere (but still in India).

Still need to look at the  Officer record for Sgt William Welsh 1652, as he looks to have followed a similar path to Dowie. 

[david murdoch]

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 02:13, JPJamie said:

Grandfather writes: "Pontoon bridge near Pashawar"

Anyone know what this vehicle is, where manufactured etc.?

This is probably the Bara River.

Peshawar is the correct spelling.

 

Just looking through some of my armoured car info. I noticed this photo actually appears in David Fletcher's War Cars book (from 1987)! This probably means there has been another copy of this photo residing in the Tank Museum archives for some time. It may be they have received a donated album at some time in the past. I spoke with David Fletcher some years ago and he told me most of this type of photos came from donations. Noting the camp photo from Parachinar 1919 also appears in War Cars. There may be more 22nd battery related photos in their archive.

Edited 20 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

Fort at Kohat pass.

[abowell97]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Fort at Kohat pass.

Great image, David. Looks like they must've had quite a few variants of armoured improvised trucks. 

 

Couple of images I just scanned in.

"6" Batt Guard, Sunday 28/5/16"

 

"Howitzer"

Looks like a BL 6 inch 30 cwt Howitzer but taken off it's wheels and placed on a platform. 

Unsure where this is, however I recall having some artillery live fire photos from Morgha, so it may be there.

 

I recognise the foremost two men, whom I think are in No.2 section (The 2nd closest man was pictured in one of the dugout photos with No.2 section).

Looks like it's taken at Rawat fort, south-east of RP, as I have an image of the gateway in the bottom right closer up. 

Unsure who the Sgt is, 4th from the front. 

 

Hope these help, 

Alex.

 

 

Edited 22 August , 2017 by abowell97

[david murdoch]

Another photo of Billy and Peter - from the family of Thomas Collins in Canada.

It looks like this photo was  taken at almost  the same time as the other, but from a different angle and there are some differences with positions of the dogs and the men in the background. I think from a different camera. In the second photo you can see the shadow of the man who took probably the other one.

[david murdoch]

On ‎22‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 13:43, abowell97 said:

Great image, David. Looks like they must've had quite a few variants of armoured improvised trucks. 

 

Couple of images I just scanned in.

 

"6" Batt Guard, Sunday 28/5/16"

 

 

"Howitzer"

Looks like a BL 6 inch 30 cwt Howitzer but taken off it's wheels and placed on a platform. 

Unsure where this is, however I recall having some artillery live fire photos from Morgha, so it may be there.

 

 

I recognise the foremost two men, whom I think are in No.2 section (The 2nd closest man was pictured in one of the dugout photos with No.2 section).

Looks like it's taken at Rawat fort, south-east of RP, as I have an image of the gateway in the bottom right closer up. 

Unsure who the Sgt is, 4th from the front. 

 

Hope these help, 

Alex.

 

 

 

 Interesting photo of No.6 Battery - looks as though it's at the MMGS training centre. As it has a very specific date to it - wonder who was there at the time as 22nd Battery were already in India, and 6th Battery were on the Western Front by spring 1915. It is for sure after MGC took over as they are missing the MMG off their cap badges.

 

In the photo of No.2 section  it's not quite clear, but looks like more of the 22MMGS shoulder titles.

Edited 23 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 17:42, JPJamie said:

Loudon & Bartholomew

I don't find Bartholomew listed in the 1st section, but wondering which section he is in.

Overexposed in the center of the image.

 

Doing a little research on Gunner Bartholomew, which I will add to. Looks like he was born in 1899, and a later recruit to MGC(M). Will likely have to try to determine his enlistment date by his service number 79566. He may have been a replacement for Alan Gilmour or Alexander Dowie.

I have no address for Louden, but by his number likely one of the Edinburgh group of volunteers, so from around that area. I'll work to positively identify him.

 

Looking at the Battery as a whole most of the original group appear to have stayed with the battery from start to finish. Therefore the group of additional MGC men (non MMGS) who were with the battery and appear on GSM/NWF1919 roll are additional manpower and not replacing people who left or were demobbed.

I have seen on the NAM site they mention both 19th and 22nd MMG batteries, and also state both those units had a section of armoured cars! 

"Two Motor Machine Gun Batteries, numbers 19 and 22, served during the 3rd Afghan War (1919) and the revolt in Waziristan (1919-1920). They were equipped with Matchless, Premier, Zenith, Enfield and Clyno motorcycles, many of which were fitted with Vickers machine-guns mounted on sidecars. Both units also had armoured car sections."

Also have seen 15th MMG was also involved in 3rd Afghan.

The number's tally for enough men to crew three of these old Indian pattern cars. The AMB units were re equipping with Admiralty pattern Rolls Royce cars being shipped in from Mesopotamia and with combat experienced crews. It may be the old local cars were added to the batteries as a "4th" section, to boost firepower and continue to make use of them. Most of the additional group of MGC(M) men had previous experience in other regiments, and some at least combat experienced in other theatres (some have 14/15 stars). Also number's wise we have roughly the same amount of people later transferring to Tank Corps. So possibly this indicates the section of cars and the car crews were taken over by Tank Corps in December 1919/January 1920 as the rest of the battery was wound up, leaving just enough men to crew them until new post war crews arrived to take over from the "duration of the war men". This group includes several original battery members who possibly swapped sections to be the actual gunners on these cars. Some of our missing ASC drivers may also be hiding on the Tank Corps roll. 

I've noted down previously all original MMGS men who received GSM/NWF clasp from the roll, and apart from the three MMG batteries there are more scattered among various  different AMB units. Some of those may have come in as ex L.A.M.B crews coming with the cars from Mesopotamia. I need to revisit this and check complete headcount for each AMB unit and the other two MMG batteries.

Edited 24 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[abowell97]

16 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Doing a little research on Gunner Bartholomew, which I will add to. Looks like he was born in 1899, and a later recruit to MGC(M). Will likely have to try to determine his enlistment date by his service number 79566. He may have been a replacement for Alan Gilmour or Alexander Dowie.

I have no address for Louden, but by his number likely one of the Edinburgh group of volunteers, so from around that area. I'll work to positively identify him.

 

That would certainly make him one of, if not the youngest member researched? I also wasn't aware that Alexander Dowie left the service early, but now see that it was 19/8/1918. Any idea why that was?

 

Yesterday I came into a camera that is old enough to have been taken to India at my Great Uncle's (WP's son's) house. It's an old 2A Folding Autographic Brownie, which began production in early 1915. Not a huge probability, but interesting to come into considering there was a lot of stuff regarding my Great Grandfather there, like his old company newspaper with his retirement article, and later death article. Unfortunately there was no trace of anything regarding the Battery, like badges or medals...  

[david murdoch]

5 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

That would certainly make him one of, if not the youngest member researched? I also wasn't aware that Alexander Dowie left the service early, but now see that it was 19/8/1918. Any idea why that was?

 

Yesterday I came into a camera that is old enough to have been taken to India at my Great Uncle's (WP's son's) house. It's an old 2A Folding Autographic Brownie, which began production in early 1915. Not a huge probability, but interesting to come into considering there was a lot of stuff regarding my Great Grandfather there, like his old company newspaper with his retirement article, and later death article. Unfortunately there was no trace of anything regarding the Battery, like badges or medals...  

If he was a replacement it's more likely he would enlist later than the others rather than being under age. He was there by 1918 as he qualified for the British War Medal. 

Dowie left the battery in August 1918, but he had applied for a commission. His first choice was for the Tank Corps but remained in India with MGC(Motors) in an Armoured Car unit. He was discharged March 1920

[JPJamie]

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 05:58, abowell97 said:

 

That would certainly make him one of, if not the youngest member researched? I also wasn't aware that Alexander Dowie left the service early, but now see that it was 19/8/1918. Any idea why that was?

 

Yesterday I came into a camera that is old enough to have been taken to India at my Great Uncle's (WP's son's) house. It's an old 2A Folding Autographic Brownie, which began production in early 1915. Not a huge probability, but interesting to come into considering there was a lot of stuff regarding my Great Grandfather there, like his old company newspaper with his retirement article, and later death article. Unfortunately there was no trace of anything regarding the Battery, like badges or medals...  

 

Too bad there was no trace of anything regarding the Battery.  However, you do have the luxury of being able to visit your Great Uncle's house.  When my grandfather died, I didn't have that opportunity, but my cousin Iain English has a lot of his stuff.  Hang on to that 2A Folding Autographic Brownie and it was more than likely used for a few of the shots we have in our albums.  I find it interesting they could "autograph" the film to make notes on it before it was developed, which may give us a clue as to what camera was being used.  It consisted of a tissue-like carbon paper sandwiched between the film and the paper backing. Text was entered using a metal stylus, and would appear in the margin of the processed print. The system was never very popular, and was discontinued in 1932.  So if you happen to have any photographs which have writing on them, the 2A Brownie was probably used.  

Edited 27 August , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

5 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Too bad there was no trace of anything regarding the Battery.  However, you do have the luxury of being able to visit your Great Uncle's house.  When my grandfather died, I didn't have that opportunity, but my cousin Iain English has a lot of his stuff.  Hang on to that 2A Folding Autographic Brownie and it was more than likely used for a few of the shots we have in our albums.  I find it interesting they could "autograph" the film to make notes on it before it was developed, which may give us a clue as to what camera was being used.  It consisted of a tissue-like carbon paper sandwiched between the film and the paper backing. Text was entered using a metal stylus, and would appear in the margin of the processed print. The system was never very popular, and was discontinued in 1932.  So if you happen to have any photographs which have writing on them, the 2A Brownie was probably used.  

Here's an example of this on one of the photos Paul posted up a while back. It was maybe done more often, but just cropped out or trimmed off most of the prints that were saved to the albums. I have one of my grandfather's photos and on the side is written "Soldiering in Mespot" - I have the original negative as well.

[abowell97]

17 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 I find it interesting they could "autograph" the film to make notes on it before it was developed, which may give us a clue as to what camera was being used.  It consisted of a tissue-like carbon paper sandwiched between the film and the paper backing. Text was entered using a metal stylus, and would appear in the margin of the processed print. The system was never very popular, and was discontinued in 1932.  So if you happen to have any photographs which have writing on them, the 2A Brownie was probably used.  

Ah, nice!

 

I have one or two images with white writing on them. Not in the margin, and  just a word (usually the location) and a number. I think I've seen similar white annotations on pictures that have been on the forum, so they were likely given to many of the Battery.

 

I found around three old cameras at my Great Uncles, and two would've been my Great Grandfathers. The 2A Brownie and another box camera from the late-20s (likely used to take photos at some of the Jamieson-Patrick meet ups, post war).

 

I'll see if I can get some of the annotated photos up in the next few days when I get internet again, currently using mobile data.

 

 

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-8-14 at 17:58, JPJamie said:

 

 

 

Fishing

My grandfathers album also has a Fishing Party photo -not the same as this one though.

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-8-16 at 18:31, JPJamie said:

 

Paul:

When I first saw this picture from Iain I thought for sure your Grandfather was in there somewhere.  Really happy you have an image(s) of him finally.  In the enlargement David posted above, the man in the middle with the moustache, is definitely trying to look like Kitchener. 

 

I just rechecked the Battery image, and only one man is wearing (assuming) prescription spectacles as seen in the enlargement above.  I would think, good eyesight for this Battery would be a requirement.  Any comments on that?  Also, please explain "warrant officer."  What I know when it comes to military jargon and rank is from movies.   So I know "you salute the rank, not the person", from Band of Brothers...that was a great scene.

 

Spectacles - yes I think good eyesight would have been an initial requirement for MMGS - but if eyesight deteriorated during the course of your engagement then the authorities would have sought correction rather than lose trained manpower. And I think the calibre of man who applied for MMGS weren't the sort of characters to let poor eyesight stand in the way of them joining - they would have disguised it until they were in. And as the war went on then i'm sure the authorities became less fussy!

Warrant Officers -David has explained.

Saluting. May be different in the US Army but in the British Forces the salute is an acknowledgement of the holding of the Queen's (or during the war the King's) Commission -rather than a rank. Although when both people concerned are officers (ie commission holders) - the junior salutes the senior first. Not sure if US Army have commissions -presumably they do from the President as Commander in Chief.

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-8-17 at 18:07, JPJamie said:

"Taken on town. Cleaning the guns after firing! Note the crowds of natives in the back."

Very poor for facial recognition, but Indian and British officers.

 

Need to check but I think both these pictures (this and previous post - or very similar ) are in my grandfathers album.

[pjwmacro]

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 19:01, david murdoch said:

 

Looking at the Battery as a whole most of the original group appear to have stayed with the battery from start to finish. Therefore the group of additional MGC men (non MMGS) who were with the battery and appear on GSM/NWF1919 roll are additional manpower and not replacing people who left or were demobbed.

%0

Edited 29 August , 2017 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 19:01, david murdoch said:

 

 

Looking at the Battery as a whole most of the original group appear to have stayed with the battery from start to finish. Therefore the group of additional MGC men (non MMGS) who were with the battery and appear on GSM/NWF1919 roll are additional manpower and not replacing people who left or were demobbed.

I have seen on the NAM site they mention both 19th and 22nd MMG batteries, and also state both those units had a section of armoured cars! 

"Two Motor Machine Gun Batteries, numbers 19 and 22, served during the 3rd Afghan War (1919) and the revolt in Waziristan (1919-1920). They were equipped with Matchless, Premier, Zenith, Enfield and Clyno motorcycles, many of which were fitted with Vickers machine-guns mounted on sidecars. Both units also had armoured car sections."

Also have seen 15th MMG was also involved in 3rd Afghan.

The number's tally for enough men to crew three of these old Indian pattern cars. The AMB units were re equipping with Admiralty pattern Rolls Royce cars being shipped in from Mesopotamia and with combat experienced crews. It may be the old local cars were added to the batteries as a "4th" section, to boost firepower and continue to make use of them. Most of the additional group of MGC(M) men had previous experience in other regiments, and some at least combat experienced in other theatres (some have 14/15 stars). Also number's wise we have roughly the same amount of people later transferring to Tank Corps. So possibly this indicates the section of cars and the car crews were taken over by Tank Corps in December 1919/January 1920 as the rest of the battery was wound up, leaving just enough men to crew them until new post war crews arrived to take over from the "duration of the war men". This group includes several original battery members who possibly swapped sections to be the actual gunners on these cars. Some of our missing ASC drivers may also be hiding on the Tank Corps roll. 

I've noted down previously all original MMGS men who received GSM/NWF clasp from the roll, and apart from the three MMG batteries there are more scattered among various  different AMB units. Some of those may have come in as ex L.A.M.B crews coming with the cars from Mesopotamia. I need to revisit this and check complete headcount for each AMB unit and the other two MMG batteries.

 

Must be lack of practice!  Tried to edit my previous post and managed to remove it all!

Armoured Cars:

No mention of armoured cars or any additional sections in the 22 Bty was diary for 3rd Afghan War. May have already been chipped to Tank Corps / or armoured car companies?  Or just left in Rawalpindi when the Bty deployed?

I will attempt to get to Bovington Tank Museum in next couple of months to check their archives.

Also mentioning that my Grandfather commanded the Peterborough company of the Home Guard during the 2nd War - and during this time he and his company constructed an armoured car - probably very similar to the improvised versions seen in India - so I guess some of the inspiration came from his time with 22 Bty.