david murdoch Posted 11 August , 2017 Share Posted 11 August , 2017 (edited) On 09/08/2017 at 21:38, JPJamie said: Tea with a welterweight Boxer? My Grandfather was a boxing fan and lived directly behind where Scottish flyweight champion Walter McGowan practiced in Hamilton, Scotland. Grandad would often walk to watch him work out. My Grandfather is sitting front left on this photograph and writes: "The fellow opposite me is the champion welter weight of India - Hoisey?" I've Google searched for "Hoisey" without success. I checked up the medal index cards, but can find only one Hoisey, and he does not appear to have served in India. There are a number of Hoise and Hoose Hausey type names though. Pity can't make out his shoulder title. The lad behind him looks like another boxer or maybe his trainer. I'll be back in Scotland soon and be over in Hamilton as my sister lives there. I can check the addresses you gave previously and maybe get some street/house photos. Just looking at the group photos. The chap at the back on the left, may be also in the battery at Eastbourne photo. Third left in the back row, if it is him then probably the Battery boxing champ and was up for an inter unit competition. Edited 13 August , 2017 by david murdoch added additional information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 11 August , 2017 Share Posted 11 August , 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, david murdoch said: I checked up the medal index cards, but can find only one Hoisey, and he does not appear to have served in India. There are a number of Hoise and Hoose Hausey type names though. Pity can't make out his shoulder title. The lad behind him looks like another boxer or maybe his trainer. I'll be back in Scotland soon and be over in Hamilton as my sister lives there. I can check the addresses you gave previously and maybe get some street/house photos. Thanks David! My grandparents lived on 74 Russell Street, Burnbank, Hamilton. The "Sani" (TB sanitorium) used to be behind my grandparents house. At the time (1960's) it wasn't a sanitorium when Walter McGowan worked out there. Also, thanks much for the research on Keddie the photography processor. That information is fascinating and there's even another Jamieson in that familiy Nice to know you're going back to Scotland for wee while. Jim J Edited 11 August , 2017 by JPJamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 11 August , 2017 Share Posted 11 August , 2017 Doing some research today on 11th Battery MMGS, I found some interesting information. Actually due to one of the ASC fitters being accidentally shot! His record survives, and this includes witness statement and conclusion of the fatal accident enquiry. In his file is a sheet dated 27/5/1915 that shows the allocation of ASC men to 11th Battery as they were formed - ie when these men were taken onto Battery strength. This in turn gives an (ASC) head count of 11 that 22nd battery would have also have had! 1 NCO Driver 1 NCO Fitter 2 x Fitter 7 x Drivers Normally there was a No.1 and No.2 Driver for the trucks. From the official battery photo they had 5 trucks, and it looks like Sgt Fielder rode the CO's sidecar outfit. We already identified both the NCOs Kellet and Fielder (both who were mechanics), so looks like still looking to identify at least 4 more ASC personnel. The other ranks figure for the Beltana was 65 (looks like adjusted up to 68) It appears they took 3 additional trucks to India (probably as spares or additional capacity due to where they were going), so maybe some additional drivers. Right now we have 61 identified and three names just not positively identified. So four more ASC would give the full compliment. I need to check all those other 11th Battery ASC men, however the chap that died - his service number is in the same range as the 22nd Battery ASC men. I need to go back and search their files and see if there is an "allocation " paper for one of them, as this would give a date very close to the battery physically manning up. Interestingly they were transferred by name and no service number. On the transfer list they have just simple numbers off a list. I think they were in a pool at ASC of those who were recruited for/by MMGS, and these are ledger numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 Grandfather writes: "This is one of our camps at Mardan. Taken when in town." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abowell97 Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 4 minutes ago, JPJamie said: Grandfather writes: "This is one of our camps at Mardan. Taken when in town." Great photo! Good one of a lot of the Section by the looks of it. Anyone know how many sections there were per Battery? Just occurred to me I only know of there being three, but I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 Grandfather writes: "Taken at Kohal when on town. Some of our boys having a good time in the evening. I am elsewhere. Note the native guard on our camp." Not a good quality image, I edited and fixed as much as I could. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 9 minutes ago, abowell97 said: Great photo! Good one of a lot of the Section by the looks of it. Anyone know how many sections there were per Battery? Just occurred to me I only know of there being three, but I'm not sure. Standard formation in the motorcycle batteries was three sections. Each section with two gun carriers and four ammo carriers, and several solo bikes. In the battery photo (from the newspaper) they are in "parade order". CO at the front, then the section officers, two gun carriers with the utility carriers behind, and the support vehicles at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 (edited) No description was provided. Edited 12 August , 2017 by JPJamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 Interesting picnic as there are (British?) women present. Assuming also officers in image? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 The Barracks Not exactly a Western Front trench scene here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, JPJamie said: No description was provided. This is great. This is likely the whole section (by the head count) photo, and includes their section Lieutenant at the back with the Sam Browne. Note the Sergeant at the front has a whistle on his pocket. This would be for giving commands like mount up, start up, move out ect. Looking up this type was generally an NCO's whistle (as opposed to the cylindrical ones you see in the movies of officers signalling to go over the top). On the battery group photo from Eastbourne there are a couple on view, Sgt. Fielder and the professional military looking chap, I think hints to him being the Battery Sergeant Major. Edited 12 August , 2017 by david murdoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 33 minutes ago, JPJamie said: Interesting picnic as there are (British?) women present. Assuming also officers in image? Wonderful snapshot in time - family picnic scene. I guess the lads got an invite - maybe from the eligible daughters! The older chap second left, may be military but in civvies, or local civil service type. Third left looks like his son, older lady his wife and daughters. Indian servants standing back at a respectful distance. Man on the right has a bow tie - maybe the butler there to serve tea and refreshments. Paul posted a picture a while back of Fielder with a woman in the sidecar (of the CO's bike) noted as being in Kashmir. It's all very civilised and a far cry from when they enlisted expecting to go to France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abowell97 Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 Thanks for clarifying, David. Just needed a better understanding of the Battery layout. More great photos! Thanks for sharing. That group photo certainly looks like the whole section (possibly bar one, as one I have I think has 17 people, though I can't tell who's missing). Several must be with men from all sections, or at least 1 and 2 present, as I've noticed the unknown No.2 Section man from one of the Dugout photos on a fair few of them. You're right though, quite the, erm, contrast with the Western Front... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, abowell97 said: Thanks for clarifying, David. Just needed a better understanding of the Battery layout. More great photos! Thanks for sharing. That group photo certainly looks like the whole section (possibly bar one, as one I have I think has 17 people, though I can't tell who's missing). Several must be with men from all sections, or at least 1 and 2 present, as I've noticed the unknown No.2 Section man from one of the Dugout photos on a fair few of them. You're right though, quite the, erm, contrast with the Western Front... Yes I'd say the whole section. Maybe minus he photographer or someone else could have taken it to get everyone in (or it may have been on a self timer which was available by then) On other unit photos you only generally see two men on each sidecar outfit - one riding and one in the sidecar. So numbers wise a section should be. Two Gun Carriers 4 men. Four utility carriers 8 men (I have other battery parade photos which show total of 12 men standing by the sidecar units). One "scout" solo bike 1 or 2 men. One officer on solo bike. Section NCO maybe doubled as No1. Gunner on the lead gun carrier. As well as the dedicated section men, the CO had a "runner" on a solo bike, to take messages and orders back and forth to the section leaders, and the solo scouts would take reports messages back to the CO. There would be at least a couple of armourers, probably one at instructor level, Battery Sergeant Major and a quartermaster (NCO) and maybe a storekeeper. The officers in the day would have a servant, but likely in India most of these duties would be taken by local servants. They may still have had a batman, but likely they would double up as something else. Everyone would multi task. Certainly there were selected men as No.1 No.2 Gunners with higher level of training (seen by their MG trade patches). There was an additional course for the range finders and also certain number of trained signallers. Everyone would be able to ride the bikes, solo and sidecar, service the guns, load ammo belts ect. Everyone also would be able to change tires and make running repairs to the bikes. The ASC fitters would take care of major overhauls and repairs (noting Sgt. Kellett was electrical and mechanical) but likely everyone got involved with "their" machine. Being as they all joined with an interest in motorbikes - one of the recruitment requirements was to demonstrate knowledge and ability to make running repairs. As I've seen with the armoured cars, when the whole battery was on the move or relocating, the additional personnel rode in the support trucks. The situation in India being different from Western Front they would be pretty well self sufficient. Looks like they had a couple of medics attached (we have a picture on one of these on a solo bike) so probably they had solo bikes also to be mobile to cover the battery. Edited 12 August , 2017 by david murdoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 Another Group Shot Girdwood on far left I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 12 August , 2017 Share Posted 12 August , 2017 Six on a Bike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 13 August , 2017 Share Posted 13 August , 2017 (edited) On 8/12/2017 at 12:30, david murdoch said: Wonderful snapshot in time - family picnic scene. I guess the lads got an invite - maybe from the eligible daughters! The older chap second left, may be military but in civvies, or local civil service type. Third left looks like his son, older lady his wife and daughters. Indian servants standing back at a respectful distance. Man on the right has a bow tie - maybe the butler there to serve tea and refreshments. Paul posted a picture a while back of Fielder with a woman in the sidecar (of the CO's bike) noted as being in Kashmir. It's all very civilised and a far cry from when they enlisted expecting to go to France. My cousin Iain English thinks Girdwood is 2nd from the right in the image. Edited 13 August , 2017 by JPJamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 13 August , 2017 Share Posted 13 August , 2017 Girdwood & Jamieson in Barracks Notice the "trunk" with "Dr. Girdwood..." in center. Somebody also likes reading Dickens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abowell97 Posted 13 August , 2017 Share Posted 13 August , 2017 24 minutes ago, JPJamie said: Girdwood & Jamieson in Barracks Notice the "trunk" with "Dr. Girdwood..." in center. Somebody also likes reading Dickens... Thanks for posting this one. I have duplicate of it, though it has no annotation. Not sure where it was taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 14 August , 2017 Share Posted 14 August , 2017 (edited) On 12/08/2017 at 19:15, JPJamie said: Six on a Bike! I think that is William Telfer at the front showing off his "MG" trade badge. You see this quite a lot in other photos, guys obviously turning to deliberately to get trade badges, wound stripes ect in the picture. In the letters pages in The Motorcycle. I've seen several letters relating to photos of multiple people on motorbikes - someone actually complaining it was a bit passé, but you see loads of photos like this. Edited 14 August , 2017 by david murdoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 14 August , 2017 Share Posted 14 August , 2017 (edited) On 13/08/2017 at 15:50, JPJamie said: Girdwood & Jamieson in Barracks Notice the "trunk" with "Dr. Girdwood..." in center. Somebody also likes reading Dickens... This is a nice and interesting photo. We noted before he was one of the ones who joined under age, so at most he could have been studying at the time he enlisted, but certainly qualified and practicing as a dental surgeon by 1927(found in newspaper he qualified 0ctober 1926 from Glasgow Royal Faculty of Physicians and Surgeons). Also in this photo the trunks in the front can be seen at the end of beds in other barrack photos washing/shaving bowls on top in this case. These are probably part of barracks fittings (in the absence of lockers). The one at the back with Girdwood's name on maybe a private purchase. Probably in Rawalpindi with the family photos ect on the shelves. When then they were travelling they would use the army kit bags hanging on the wall at the back. Kit bags for the whole battery would probably fill a whole truck. Just clicked - Dr Girdwood on the box is short for Driver Girdwood not Doctor Girdwood! Also this photo is showing the ASC and MMGS men quartered together. Edited 15 August , 2017 by david murdoch added additional information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJamie Posted 14 August , 2017 Share Posted 14 August , 2017 56 minutes ago, abowell97 said: Thanks for posting this one. I have duplicate of it, though it has no annotation. Not sure where it was taken. Mine doesn't have an annotation either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjwmacro Posted 14 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2017 (edited) Now back from the Fastnet Race and in France on a (very limited) data connection. However, i can see I will have some serious catching up to do when back on net in a couple of weeks time . Some great photos posted (thanks Jim for the battery shot from cousin Ian) - i am scanning it on a phone at present so deciphering detail is a non starter. and great work from David on both Telfer and Keddie. My grandfather's album also includes photos of the troops in dug outs - but at a quick glance i dont have duplicates of any photos posted over the last week or so. Best Paul Edited 14 August , 2017 by pjwmacro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 14 August , 2017 Share Posted 14 August , 2017 On the subject of being under age. We have John Girdwood and William Telfer so far, and I'd suspect one of the Collins. I suspect but not proven yet they my have been brothers as enlisted pretty close together Edward Collins 1622 and Thomas Collins 1624. Tommy Collins was one who joined Tank Corps at the end and gave a c/o address in Canada on his medal card, so If I can track him down, then back track and see if I can find them together on a earlier Census return. Edward Collin's has no address on his MIC, and they are both common names (with no middle name clues). We have named photos of T. Collins, and confirmed by the photo he sent to the Motor Cycle which notes him in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 14 August , 2017 Share Posted 14 August , 2017 4 minutes ago, pjwmacro said: Now back from the Fastnet Race and in France on a (very limited) data connection. However, i can see I will have some serious catching up to do when back on net in a couple of weeks time . Some great photos posted (thanks Jim for the battery shot from cousin Ian) - i am scanning it on a phone at present so deciphering detail is a non starter. and great work from David on both Telfer and Keddie. My grandfather's album also includes photos of the troops in dug outs - but at a quick glance i dont have duplicates of any photos posted over the last week or so. Best Paul Paul. Yes some cracking photos in the last week. Hopefully you will be able to identify your grandfather at last from the battery photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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