22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[abowell97]

A name which, as far as I'm aware, hasn't cropped up in the list of those in the battery, is Gunner Peat (from what I can make out).

 

Plus, a fresh one of Gr. Lafferty (this hand-held scanner does give mixed results, hence the slip-up on the right hand side). 

On the bottom, Walter Patrick labelled as 'some cyclist' and Gr. Jamieson (I did rather ruin this scan). 

Hope these help.

[JPJamie]

5 hours ago, abowell97 said:

A name which, as far as I'm aware, hasn't cropped up in the list of those in the battery, is Gunner Peat (from what I can make out).

 

Plus, a fresh one of Gr. Lafferty (this hand-held scanner does give mixed results, hence the slip-up on the right hand side). 

On the bottom, Walter Patrick labelled as 'some cyclist' and Gr. Jamieson (I did rather ruin this scan). 

Hope these help.

 

Alex that's just superb!   Never seen my grandfather in a kilt and would hope the tartan is Gunn.  If you can would you please rescan just him and PM me with the image?  They are all so skinny!  Couple months on an American diet today would fix all that!

 

The background for Thomson looks like it's the same for my grandfather, better image of my grandfather will help.   The "foliage" looks to be the same in both images. Thomson is sitting where my grandfather is standing, but the angle is just a bit different.

 

Great stuff!

Edited 9 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

Possible match for "Gunner Peat"

Gunner  John Peat 1721

BWM only, and no GSM

He has a low MMGS service number, on medal roll show as MGC(M) then MGC(I) and discharged 28/2/1920.

Hints he was in India during war, transferred to MGC Infantry  but never saw any action - possibly attached to MG training school; as he never changed service number to an MGC(I) one.

Edited 9 July , 2017 by david murdoch

[david murdoch]

9 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Alex that's just superb!   Never seen my grandfather in a kilt and would hope the tartan is Gunn.  If you can would you please rescan just him and PM me with the image?  They are all so skinny!  Couple months on an American diet today would fix all that!

 

The background for Thomson looks like it's the same for my grandfather, better image of my grandfather will help.   The "foliage" looks to be the same in both images. Thomson is sitting where my grandfather is standing, but the angle is just a bit different.

 

Great stuff!

Certainly the same spot. Possibly Thompson was on gate duty - hence the rifle for a RAMC.

Edited 9 July , 2017 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-5 at 00:33, JPJamie said:

I've been watching a few YouTube videos of Pakistan and it appears motorcycles are THE mode of transportation within Pakistan, partly because of the mountains.

And in Afghanistan - favoured mode of transport for Taliban scouts!

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-7 at 16:39, abowell97 said:

Just found that Walter Patrick must've been a PT Instructor, if these photos are anything to go by:

Just getting to grips with a new handheld scanner, so not exactly great scans...

 

 

Hi Alex

As David M said in post id 346 the battery would have sent a few soldiers away to a central PT school to be trained as PT Instructors - hence my question as to whether there was a central school in India. I agree with David the torn photo is probably the class graduation photo - which is why very few people from 22 Bty. Those centrally trained then return to the unit and run PT for the remainder in the unit - it works like that in the Army still today! You said Walter Patrick is in the top right photo above (2nd from right?) - is he in the other two?  The one on the left of the 3 "PT Instructors" would fit with David's suggestion of training 3 for the battery - one per section and the might also train one to cover the Battery HQ.  

 

(Note: in modern parlance these guys are actually APTIs - Assistant Physical Training Instructors - centrally trained - but not actually capbadged to PT Corps. So they remain Machine Gun soldiers but with a secondary trade skill).

Best, Paul

 

Secondary point - I am pretty sure I recognise the dog in the left hand photo is the battery mascot - one of my grandfather's photos has him mounted in the side car - i'll check to see if its one i've posted or otherwise post later this week.

Edited 10 July , 2017 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

20 hours ago, abowell97 said:

A name which, as far as I'm aware, hasn't cropped up in the list of those in the battery, is Gunner Peat (from what I can make out).

 

Plus, a fresh one of Gr. Lafferty (this hand-held scanner does give mixed results, hence the slip-up on the right hand side). 

On the bottom, Walter Patrick labelled as 'some cyclist' and Gr. Jamieson (I did rather ruin this scan). 

Hope these help.

Alex - more great photo - thank you.  Any chance you could scan and post individually the "some of the boys" photo top right? And are those names written on the white margin - or just marks?

Best Paul

[pjwmacro]

17 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Possible match for "Gunner Peat"

Gunner  John Peat 1721

BWM only, and no GSM

He has a low MMGS service number, on medal roll show as MGC(M) then MGC(I) and discharged 28/2/1920.

Hints he was in India during war, transferred to MGC Infantry  but never saw any action - possibly attached to MG training school; as he never changed service number to an MGC(I) one.

 

So he is a possible? I take it there is no way of telling when he might of transfered to MgC(I)? Although the fact his number wasn't changed might also  suggest an attachment or late transfer? And if his photo is in an album it suggests he spent at least some time with 22 Bty - although given conditions in India it doesn't seem unreasonable that he might have been able to visit mates with whom he had trained - even if he was transferred or posted out of t he unit..

Best Paul.

Edited 10 July , 2017 by pjwmacro

[abowell97]

3 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

You said Walter Patrick is in the top right photo above (2nd from right?) - is he in the other two? 

 

Secondary point - I am pretty sure I recognise the dog in the left hand photo is the battery mascot 

He's the leftmost member of the photo with the three instructors, and he's second from the right in the top right photo. I can't make out the bottom-right as it's too small, however it doesn't look like he's in it.

 

I have a picture of the dog with the comment "Our Mascot" so it certainly was!

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Alex - more great photo - thank you.  Any chance you could scan and post individually the "some of the boys" photo top right? And are those names written on the white margin - or just marks?

Best Paul

Will certainly try and get a better scan today, and they're just marks, not text. Unfortunately, I can't get the photos out to see if anything is written on the back...

 

(Not glued in, I think some form of sticky paper they're mounted on which is nigh-impossible to remove without damaging either the photo or the ancient album).

 

Thanks, 

Alex.

Edited 10 July , 2017 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

He's the leftmost member of the photo with the three instructors, and he's second from the right in the top right photo. I can't make out the bottom-right as it's too small, however it doesn't look like he's in it.

 

I have a picture of the dog with the comment "Our Mascot" so it certainly was!

Will certainly try and get a better scan today, and they're just marks, not text. Unfortunately, I can't get the photos out to see if anything is written on the back...

 

(Not glued in, I think some form of sticky paper they're mounted on which is nigh-impossible to remove without damaging either the photo or the ancient album).

 

Thanks, 

Alex.

 

Thanks Alex - the group looked bigger than a section, so interested in case it picked out my grandfather. I`ll see if I can find the mascot picture tonight. I guess if the picture is mounted on a sticky type paper then either there was nothing written on the back in the first place, or, if there was, your great grandfather was sufficiently confident he could remember what the details were whether people or places. For the PT photos I guess it would fit him not being in the photo bottom right if it's of a PT class he was taking - perhaps he was the photographer.

 

Regards, Paul

[abowell97]

On 10/07/2017 at 21:34, pjwmacro said:

I guess if the picture is mounted on a sticky type paper then either there was nothing written on the back in the first place, or, if there was, your great grandfather was sufficiently confident he could remember what the details were whether people or places. For the PT photos I guess it would fit him not being in the photo bottom right if it's of a PT class he was taking - perhaps he was the photographer.

Yeah, a bit annoying because a couple hadn't been stuck in and they had writing on the back, though after trying to get one out and ruining it, I think I'll leave them!

For the PT photo, there's a fair chance you're right, it may well have been a class he took if it's a picture he kept. 

Can't say I recognise anyone, though the man with the middle mascot between his legs does look familiar to me.  I think the hand-held scanner messed up a bit, hence the slightly warped heads at the back... 

Hope it helps! 

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Yeah, a bit annoying because a couple hadn't been stuck in and they had writing on the back, though after trying to get one out and ruining it, I think I'll leave them!

For the PT photo, there's a fair chance you're right, it may well have been a class he took if it's a picture he kept. 

 

Can't say I recognise anyone, though the man with the middle mascot between his legs does look familiar to me.  I think the hand-held scanner messed up a bit, hence the slightly warped heads at the back... 

 

Hope it helps! 

 

Pictures of the men always help!  Thanks again Alex!  My Grandfather is in the back row of six guys.  In the back row, there are two with pith hats on and he's the one on the left.  Also the other guy (to my Grandfather's left) might be Botteril with his moustache shaved.   Botteril tends to wear his helmet tilted back on his head.

Edited 10 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Why "MMG" on one and not the other?

The one with "MMG" is the same size basically as the larger one. 

I just made the one at left (inset) smaller to get both in one image.

 

Thanks to my cousin Iain English (IEnglish) for the originals.

 

Edited 10 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

On 11/07/2017 at 03:32, JPJamie said:

Why "MMG" on one and not the other?

The one with "MMG" is the same size basically as the larger one. 

I just made the one at left (inset) smaller to get both in one image.

 

Thanks to my cousin Iain English (IEnglish) for the originals.

 

The one on the left is the original badge of the Motor Machine Gun Service. When the Machine Gun Corps was created they took over the MMGS and used the badge minus the letters. I've seen the original badge refered to as Machine Gun Corps (Motors), but evidence now shows that it was discontinued from use and all branches of MGC wore the plain crossed guns. In one of the posts further back quotes a letter in "The Motorcycle" where original MMGS men complaining about lack of thier own badge, and mentions they were ordered to break the letters off thier original issue badges.

Should add there are several different versions - with different makers, different style guns and with the MMGS ones some have the letters between the guns and some like the one you posted has the MMG laid in front of the guns. There must have been a finite number ever issued, and then many presumably were modified as ordered. There are any amount of restrikes and fake ones. My grandfather enlisted and went through training more or less same time as most of 22nd Battery as his service number is right in the middle of the range of 22nd Battery. There was a big pool of recruits from all over the country and presumably they got allocated as per their abilities and divided up and allocated to different units. This picture of him is from Bisley August 1915, and he seems to have got a stripe pretty well straight away. Also on his left sleeve you can see the outline of his red Motor Machine Guns patch - where it was originally worn - it's this you can see that 22nd took to wearing on their tropical helmets. On the Eastbourne beach the boys are clearly showing off their MMG badge, but thereafter the photographs show them wearing plain badges.

[david murdoch]

On 09/07/2017 at 23:09, JPJamie said:

 

Alex that's just superb!   Never seen my grandfather in a kilt and would hope the tartan is Gunn.  If you can would you please rescan just him and PM me with the image?  They are all so skinny!  Couple months on an American diet today would fix all that!

 

 

Putting the kilt photos together for comparison. Difficult to identify the tartan from the monochrome, but I think they are different kilts just by contrast with the tunics. At a guess I'd say personal kilts taken out with them.The dark one on the left may be a regimental. May be worth posting this one separately as there are people who can identify different tartans or identifying regiments off old B/W photos!

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-7-2 at 18:28, JPJamie said:

Thanks to Maureen for posting the link to the online copies of MotorCycle Magazine!

 

MOMAGU

 

Names: Sgt. J.R. Slater; Gunner J.T. Gough

"On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."

"We have now been in the country for almost two years..."

"This battery, of course is composed entirely of men who enlisted for the purpose of fighting in France, but we were sent to India; and not knowing what to expect, we were highly pleased to receive this order. "

 

Now we know not only how they got to Rawalpindi, but how long it took to get there.

Also, the reference of "We have now been in the country for almost two years..." compared to the print time on the page of March 28th, 1918, would make them in country two years previous, which matches the time my Grandfather and others were there.

 

I actually searched for "Blighty" in Google and of course figured out it's slang for England.

Funny how MOMAGU sounds Indian, but just means MOtorcycle MAchine GUn

I heard "blighty" while in Scotland, but never made the association with England...learned something today.

Does the reference to the "duration man" mean (the obvious) he's in this for the duration of the war?  

 

The MotorCycle article below is from March 28th, 1918, and contains therein an exact copy of a picture I have in my Grandfather's photograph album...

 

 

 

Jim - just realised we have another duplicate photo - the one above duplicated in MOMAGU /the Motorcycle. Interesting to note the captioning differences - never trust a caption. Paul.  

[pjwmacro]

9 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Yeah, a bit annoying because a couple hadn't been stuck in and they had writing on the back, though after trying to get one out and ruining it, I think I'll leave them!

For the PT photo, there's a fair chance you're right, it may well have been a class he took if it's a picture he kept. 

 

Can't say I recognise anyone, though the man with the middle mascot between his legs does look familiar to me.  I think the hand-held scanner messed up a bit, hence the slightly warped heads at the back... 

Hope it helps! 

 

Thanks Alex. As Jim says - all the images of the blokes are interesting. And to mascots - on a less serious note. Two of them - the white pug like dog and the dark retriever type are (I think) Billy and Peter. Not sure which way round because the photo bene a th this one in my grandfather's album have them reveresed on the bikeand sidecar. Best, Paul.

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Putting the kilt photos together for comparison. Difficult to identify the tartan from the monochrome, but I think they are different kilts just by contrast with the tunics. At a guess I'd say personal kilts taken out with them.The dark one on the left may be a regimental. May be worth posting this one separately as there are people who can identify different tartans or identifying regiments off old B/W photos!

Agree David - they are probably personal and it would be worth getting a specialist to look at them.  I'll do some digging to see if I can find someone. Paul

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, david murdoch said:

 

Great photo of your Grandfather this one. And I constantly think they all look so young - which of course they were.

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-4-19 at 00:00, pjwmacro said:

man I believe to be the battery OC (Maj A W Molony, R Dub Fus, att MGC(M)

Update on the Battery OC Maj A W Molony. I have now heard back from APC Glasgow - they do not have a record of Service, for Alexander Weldon Molony. However, they have sent me sufficient information from his p file to confirm OC 22 MMG Battery in India and Capt A W Molony 1 R Dub Fusiliers, W Coy. onboard the SS River Clyde at V Beach Gallipoli 25 Apr 1915, are one and the same!  Philip Lecanes book Beneath a Turkish Sky quotes him a couple of times (taken from Vol 3 of Neill's  Bluecaps) and includes a battalion officers photo taken pre- embarkation. In particular his AF B103 confirms he was wounded at Gallipoli and casevaced to UK, Plymouth, via Malta. He was discharged from hospital in Plymouth in 15 Jun on 2 months sick leave. He was seconded to MGC in Oct 15 (already knew this from Gazette entry) andposted to Command 22 Battery MGC(Motors) at Bisley in Nov 15. He was going back to UK in Apr 19, but this was delayed by the 3rd Afghan War and he shipped back to UK in Oct 19 on HMT Huntsgreen. (Pictures of the Huntsgreen are in my grandfather's album, so I assume he(my grandfather) was also on this ship). He was discharged from the Regular Army Reserve of Officers in May 1934 - due to age but was recalled to service in India in WW2 between Aug 40 and Jan 43. On leaving the Army in 1920'he obviously returned to India as his emergency mobilisation record says he resided in India ina civil capacity 1921 to 1928. He also says he was in S Africa 1937, and that on leaving the "Army became Trainer of Racehorses and managed large racing stable". He records he was educated at Bedford College 1895-1901.

Regards Paul

[david murdoch]

I've found a casualty relating to 22nd Battery. One of the ASC lads.

Pte/Driver William Arthur Cordwell. M2/101516. Died Age 33 Rawalpindi 5/4/1918, buried 6/4/1918 Rawalpindi War Cemetery.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/909563/CORDWELL, WILLIAM ARTHUR

Born 1/1/1885 Enfield, resident South Kensington.

Found on 1911 Census  -  was single and  occupation Motor Car Driver.

Going back the older Census he had two older brothers, two older sisters and two younger sisters.

Checking on Ancestry he has been researched by a family descendent - I've sent a message to this person. 

 

I'm sure he will be in some of the group photos and be one of the older ones. Presuming he died of illness - medal roll just stated died.

 

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Jim - just realised we have another duplicate photo - the one above duplicated in MOMAGU /the Motorcycle. Interesting to note the captioning differences - never trust a caption. Paul.  

I have this image as well! I think it's captioned "Action on the NWF".

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Great photo of your Grandfather this one. And I constantly think they all look so young - which of course they were.

 

One of the best composed images we have.

 

JJ

[abowell97]

On 11/07/2017 at 08:35, pjwmacro said:

Update on the Battery OC Maj A W Molony. I have now heard back from APC Glasgow - they do not have a record of Service, for Alexander Weldon Molony. However, they have sent me sufficient information from his p file to confirm OC 22 MMG Battery in India and Capt A W Molony 1 R Dub Fusiliers, W Coy. onboard the SS River Clyde at V Beach Gallipoli 25 Apr 1915, are one and the same!

Excellent, that's certainly quite the life he had, what luck to be sent to India after going through the ordeal of Gallipoli, though I think most who served in India can be considered at least luckier than the majority of those who joined up around the same time...

 

 

Been trying to find the name of one battery member, in this photo he's to the right of Walter Patrick, pulling a face:

 

And in this one, he's to the left of Walter Patrick (far right). I've seen him in quite a few group photos, but can't find any individual photos of him, and as he crops up a fair bit,I just wondered if anyone had an idea of who he might be. Irritatingly, his name may well be written on the back of one of the pictures, but I can't get them out of the album...

Hope these pictures help.

 

Thanks,

Alex.

 

[JPJamie]

4 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Excellent, that's certainly quite the life he had, what luck to be sent to India after going through the ordeal of Gallipoli, though I think most who served in India can be considered at least luckier than the majority of those who joined up around the same time...

 

 

Been trying to find the name of one battery member, in this photo he's to the right of Walter Patrick, pulling a face:

 

And in this one, he's to the left of Walter Patrick (far right). I've seen him in quite a few group photos, but can't find any individual photos of him, and as he crops up a fair bit,I just wondered if anyone had an idea of who he might be. Irritatingly, his name may well be written on the back of one of the pictures, but I can't get them out of the album...

Hope these pictures help.

 

Thanks,

Alex.

 

 

Wonderful images, especially the one on top.  I've got a quote from Gunner J.T. Gough with "Railway Comfort:"  "On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."  Making pieces fit together to re-create the storyline is what this thread is all about.  Now I know, my grandfather was more than likely on that same train.  They look happy and probably figured out what the next few years were going to be like for them...compared to thousands of others on the Western Front.

Edited 11 July , 2017 by JPJamie