22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[abowell97]

12 minutes ago, JPJamie said:

 

Alex:  I think I might have something for both of us and especially you!

 

!  In my grandfather's album there is a page with four photographs.  At the top of the page my grandfather wrote: "Jamieson Visits The Patricks, West Bromich."  For years, I never knew who the Patricks were, but I have a strong feeling I know who they are now!!  This is off topic and I will remove this posting after you confirm, the image below may show your Great Grandfather and Great Grandmother, standing next to my Grandmother Jessie Jamieson, when they visited your Great Grandparents.  If you can confirm, I will gladly send you all images in a PM and then delete below... 

 

That's a fantastic photo! Yes, that's my Great Grandparents, and my Grandmother and Great Uncle to their right.

Thanks so much for sharing, and I'd love it if you could forward those photos. Any idea of the date it was taken? 

 

Such an excellent shot, that's made my day! My family will love to see it.

Thanks,

Alex. 

Edited 27 June , 2017 by abowell97

[JPJamie]

12 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

 

That's a fantastic photo! Yes, that's my Great Grandparents, and my Grandmother and Great Uncle to their right.

Thanks so much for sharing, and I'd love it if you could forward those photos. Any idea of the date it was taken? 

 

Such an excellent shot, my family will love to see it!

Thanks,

Alex. 

 

That's FABULOUS and I will forward to you!  No there is no date on them, but the car might  help.  There are actually two more images, one showing your Great Grandfather and my Grandmother at what appears to be the back door of a house.  Another showing your Great Grandfather and my Grandparents at a war memorial, with two young boys, one wearing a kilt.  I will scan all in and send.

 

Alex:  I just messaged you for your email address to send you the images. 

 

Edited 27 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

1 minute ago, JPJamie said:

 

That's FABULOUS and I will forward to you!  No there is no date on them, but the car might  help.  There are actually two more images, one showing your Great Grandfather and my Grandmother at what appears to be the back door of a house.  Another showing your Great Grandfather and my Grandparents at a war memorial, which two young boys, one wearing a kilt.  I will scan all in and send.

 

 

That's brilliant - well done both of you! Best Paul

[abowell97]

3 minutes ago, JPJamie said:

 

That's FABULOUS and I will forward to you!  No there is no date on them, but the car might  help.  There are actually two more images, one showing your Great Grandfather and my Grandmother at what appears to be the back door of a house.  Another showing your Great Grandfather and my Grandparents at a war memorial, which two young boys, one wearing a kilt.  I will scan all in and send.

 

I'd guess around 1940, as my Great Uncle on the right was born in 1927, but that's great. All the photos I have were in his possession before he died a couple of months ago, it's just a shame he never mentioned them before, as he could've probably cleared up a lot of ambiguities over his Fathers time in the military. Off topic, I know, but thanks anyway!

[JPJamie]

Alex: I just PM'd you all three images using the message tool.  I just want to make sure you get the images.  So let me know if that works or not as I can always email them if needed.  This is  just the greatest!  I never made the Jamieson-Patrick connection all these years and THIS site did it for us. 

 

James P. Jamieson  

Edited 27 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-6-24 at 20:37, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Paul,

An extremely well-earned MiD; quite possibly downgraded from a DCM (or even MM).

One wonders what, if anything, Major Dodd (or the Flyers) got? 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Dear Kim

Posting in War in the Air - Downed 20 Sqn Bristol Fighter at Badama Post.

Regards, Paul

 

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-6-26 at 17:58, david murdoch said:

Yes getting interesting! 1623 was a Gunner Harold John Haycock. He's on the BWM only roll amongst the 22nd Battery lads, and his discharge date is also 1/1/1920. Probably another of the missing, but not got anything in writing stating him as 22nd and he has no GSM on his MIC. In the photos William Lafferty is on the bike with Ross (banker) who is not identified yet.

 

As I'm looking wider than just 22nd Battery I'll keep a side list of other possibilities for 22nd battery personnel who have service numbers and discharge dates that fit the pattern.

 

 

 

Hi David

I can find a MIC for 1623 Gnr Harold J Haycock - MGC (certainly in transcription). I cannot find a service record  (or SWB) ,but I can find census /birth records for a Harold J(ohn?) Haycock who was born (1893/4) and lived in the West Ham area of London - ,which fits with some of the London recruiting - might be our man. But not sure how to prove or disprove 22 Bty membership.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 27/06/2017 at 21:40, abowell97 said:

 

Here's another picture of the as-yet-unnamed, kilted man:

No caption though. 

 

 

 

Are they the same man?? The kilt looks similar (difficult to tell in black and white) but I am not sure? And we have established there were several Scots in the Bty.

Best, Paul

 

[pjwmacro]

On 27/06/2017 at 23:55, JPJamie said:

 

Alex:  I was wrong when I wrote I have another image of Keddie as Cowboy, I have Dowie!

Taken at the same spot, but different angle as the tree is the same in both images.

They probably took turns dressing up as a cowboy.

 

 

James

Is it Dowie or Keddie who had a dog on his lap in one of your first group photos?  I think it was Dowie? I wander if he was the keeper of the "mascot". Incidentally a number of my grandfathers photos feature dogs/mascots -some of them named. Not sure I recognise this mutt but i'll check the photos!

 

Paul

 

 

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

I don't have anyone labelled as 'Collins' in any of my photos I'm afraid. 

 

 

Here's another picture of the as-yet-unnamed, kilted man:

No caption though. 

 

Two more, fairly decent quality photos:

"Rangefinder + taker. This instrument gives the exact range of any object up to 20,000 yds away"

This image seemed more professional, and a company it is stamped on the back as "J.T.M. Gough", which I can only assume is the company used to develop the image, as it has a symbol indicating it was done in India. It's a large, high quality copy so I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few people already had this one. 

 

Walter Patrick's more 'professional' photograph, taken in 1915. Not in my collection, but found in a photo album. 

 

The professional photo is a good one. Walters googles caught me out initially - I was thinking he doesn't have a Motors / MGC capbadge. Now I have managed to zoom in I can see the googles obscuring the capbadge.

The range finder photo is a nice one as well. Just for interest i ran JMT Gough through a variety of search engines. I couldn't come up with a photography company in India or Pakistan but I did get 6 J Goughs with an MGC link. Sadly the J was a middle name in all cases - I don't think any have a 22 Bty link.

[JPJamie]

Alex shared a picture with me today I have never seen before.

 

The names of Gunner James Petrie Jamieson's children (in my family) below were just confirmed by my mother Anne Jamieson who was married to John in the image below.

 

The image shows my recently deceased Aunt Margaret Jamieson-English, my deceased Uncle, Andrew Jamieson (lying in the foreground) and my deceased father John Jamieson MBchB (Glasgow University) . My father is the boy on the right with Alex's great aunt's hand on his shoulder.

 

Sadly, I've never seen pictures of my father and uncle this young, so I didn't recognize them!

 

Thank you very much Alex!

We both had pictures that meant a lot to our families today.Will delete after a few days as this is not entirely on topic.

 

[david murdoch]

"Rangefinder + taker. This instrument gives the exact range of any object up to 20,000 yds away"

This image seemed more professional, and a company it is stamped on the back as "J.T.M. Gough", which I can only assume is the company used to develop the image, as it has a symbol indicating it was done in India. It's a large, high quality copy so I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few people already had this one. 

The equipment is a Barr & Stroud rangefinder and tripod - for some reason this picture seems familiar, and I'm sure I've seen it before! http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/acc-rangefinder.htm

 

He is  Gunner John Travell Maton Gough 1068. He's on the BWM only roll in among the 22nd Battery names. He never got a GSM/clasp, but 22nd for sure  - check out his 22MMGS shoulder title! 

Baptised 15 Sep 1895 - Dinton, Wiltshire, England - died 28 Aug 1921 aged 26 at British Station Hospital, Murree, India! No CWWG listing for him, but he had discharged from army 72/03/1920. With a name like that easy to find on the archives - he was at Birmingham University 1912-1913. He had a sister Irene Alberta Ingeretha Maton Gough.

 

I've also identified "J Rodger" from one of the original postings. He is on this roll too  Gunner James Muir Rodger 1660

 

I've been through all names on this roll not previously linked to 22nd, and I'm pretty certain these are the others - just not positively identified. I've got 18 names (including the two above) 15 Gunners and three NCOs. basically a full section!

Of these only one has a GSM/clasp - when I cross checked him on the GSM roll he's listed as 22nd Squadron (MGC Cavalry) who were also there. I think it's a typo, as there is nothing on his MIC to suggest a transfer.

Another one transferred Commissioned to 2nd HLI same as Dowie.

 

 

[GreyC]

Hi,

a very cute and touching photo in #261!

GreyC

[david murdoch]

14 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Alex shared a picture with me today I have never seen before.

The names of the children in my family below were just confirmed by my mother Anne Jamieson.

The image below shows my recently deceased Aunt Margaret Jamieson-English, my deceased Uncle Andrew Jamieson (lying in the foreground) and my deceased father John Jamieson MBchB (Glasgow University) . 

My father is the boy on the right with the Alex's great aunt's hand on his shoulder.

Sadly, I've never seen pictures of my father and uncle when they were this young, so I didn't recognize them!

 

Thank you very much Alex!

We both had pictures that meant a lot to our families today.

 

Will delete after a few days as this is not entirely on topic.

 

JJ. Great photos - this is an important part of the story - where they came from, and what became of them after the war. Looks like the kids have got the old army hats out the cupboard for dressing up - think that's a Cameron Highlander on the right!. Part of my MMGS research is to find out where they came from,who were mates and joined up together and also these photos show they did stay in touch afterwards. The MMGS being an unusual unit as it only existed a short while, but recruited from all over the country. The common link to all of them is motorcycles. 22nd Battery is a little snapshot in time as they ended up stuck in India for the duration, and it's looking like for most of them the only unit they served. They were in hindsight probably lucky as they all survived, with Alan Gilmour's broken leg being the worst injury. Picking up their lives after the war or moving on - on the medal cards  have addresses from Canada to China, and now this lad who stayed on in India. Seen evidence Dowie got a speeding fine riding a motorbike after the war. I know my own grandfather bought a Clyno with sidecar with his saved up wages when he got back in 1920. I'm now getting the feeling that my grandfathers original mates who he joined up with were killed.

[JPJamie]

16 hours ago, david murdoch said:

"Rangefinder + taker. This instrument gives the exact range of any object up to 20,000 yds away"

This image seemed more professional, and a company it is stamped on the back as "J.T.M. Gough", which I can only assume is the company used to develop the image, as it has a symbol indicating it was done in India. It's a large, high quality copy so I wouldn't be surprised if a fair few people already had this one. 

The equipment is a Barr & Stroud rangefinder and tripod - for some reason this picture seems familiar, and I'm sure I've seen it before! http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/acc-rangefinder.htm

 

He is  Gunner John Travell Maton Gough 1068. He's on the BWM only roll in among the 22nd Battery names. He never got a GSM/clasp, but 22nd for sure  - check out his 22MMGS shoulder title! 

Baptised 15 Sep 1895 - Dinton, Wiltshire, England - died 28 Aug 1921 aged 26 at British Station Hospital, Murree, India! No CWWG listing for him, but he had discharged from army 72/03/1920. With a name like that easy to find on the archives - he was at Birmingham University 1912-1913. He had a sister Irene Alberta Ingeretha Maton Gough.

 

I've also identified "J Rodger" from one of the original postings. He is on this roll too  Gunner James Muir Rodger 1660

 

I've been through all names on this roll not previously linked to 22nd, and I'm pretty certain these are the others - just not positively identified. I've got 18 names (including the two above) 15 Gunners and three NCOs. basically a full section!

Of these only one has a GSM/clasp - when I cross checked him on the GSM roll he's listed as 22nd Squadron (MGC Cavalry) who were also there. I think it's a typo, as there is nothing on his MIC to suggest a transfer.

Another one transferred Commissioned to 2nd HLI same as Dowie.

 

 

I don't have this one in my album and agree the composition seems more professionally done.  In developing the photograph (the un-cropped version, the above is cropped) the right side appears to be overexposed and wondering if this was a camera shutter delay on that side or dark room technique, not sure on that.  One wonders what he died from so young, but I'd suspect some tropical disease as they probably weren't immunized back then, which is another interesting research topic.  The photography has finger prints on it and other dots, more apparent when the image is scaled up.  These marks can be cleaned up in Photoshop with the "Clone" tool which allows you to sample an area adjacent to the mark and "paint" over it.  A Clone tool job on this image would definitely clean it up.  Fun to do, time consuming (ask yourself is this worth the time/effort) but always improves the image.

Edited 28 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

3 hours ago, david murdoch said:

JJ. Great photos - this is an important part of the story - where they came from, and what became of them after the war. Looks like the kids have got the old army hats out the cupboard for dressing up - think that's a Cameron Highlander on the right!. Part of my MMGS research is to find out where they came from,who were mates and joined up together and also these photos show they did stay in touch afterwards. The MMGS being an unusual unit as it only existed a short while, but recruited from all over the country. The common link to all of them is motorcycles. 22nd Battery is a little snapshot in time as they ended up stuck in India for the duration, and it's looking like for most of them the only unit they served. They were in hindsight probably lucky as they all survived, with Alan Gilmour's broken leg being the worst injury. Picking up their lives after the war or moving on - on the medal cards  have addresses from Canada to China, and now this lad who stayed on in India. Seen evidence Dowie got a speeding fine riding a motorbike after the war. I know my own grandfather bought a Clyno with sidecar with his saved up wages when he got back in 1920. I'm now getting the feeling that my grandfathers original mates who he joined up with were killed.

 

David thanks for the above comments on the image being an important part of the story.  I missed that "the kids have got the old army hats out of the cupboard for dressing up."  Your comments got me taking a second look at my father.   He had rheumatic fever as a boy, so wondering of the photograph was before or after.  My uncle Andrew served in WWII as a dentist, but we have little information on that subject. 

 

I was a bit concerned about it being off topic as at times administrators are strict on maintaining topic when users start loosely associating with flights of ideas!  LOL!  

 

So thanks for the comments and I will keep the image and glad to leave it.

 

JJ

Edited 28 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 The photography has finger prints on it and other dots, more apparent when the image is scaled up.  

Yeah, scanning them in did make them show up more, and I couldn't remove them from the copy as they seem to be hardened on, so I didn't risk damaging the photo.

 

Might try to remove them in Photoshop at a later date if anyone wants to full resolution image.

Alex 

[david murdoch]

On 29/06/2017 at 03:12, abowell97 said:

Yeah, scanning them in did make them show up more, and I couldn't remove them from the copy as they seem to be hardened on, so I didn't risk damaging the photo.

 

Might try to remove them in Photoshop at a later date if anyone wants to full resolution image.

Alex 

JJ /Alex.

 Would one of you be able to work on this photo to and enhance the brass shoulder title to make it clearer? I think it's an important find, as not seen on any of the other photos. Apart from marking him as being with the battery, I think it also points to the battery being formed prior to the MGC taking over the MMGS. Likely they were already formed and under training when the changeover occurred. I've seen contemporary newspaper article stating (in mid 1915) they were planning on forming 40 batteries, but this all changed when MGC took over. They actually disbanded some batteries and some restructured and re equipped others with the armoured cars they had acquired from the Royal Naval Air Service.

From what I know they got as far as 25th.I have been searching for images of MMGS shoulder titles but best I have at the moment is this 25th MMGS in a book.

[JPJamie]

37 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

JJ /Alex.

 Would one of you be able to work on this photo to and enhance the brass shoulder title to make it clearer? I think it's an important find, as not seen on any of the other photos. Apart from marking him as being with the battery, I think it also points to the battery being formed prior to the MGC taking over the MMGS. Likely they were already formed and under training when the changeover occurred. I've seen contemporary newspaper article stating (in mid 1915) they were planning on forming 40 batteries, but this all changed when MGC took over. They actually disbanded some batteries and some restructured and re equipped others with the armoured cars they had acquired from the Royal Naval Air Service.

From what I know they got as far as 25th.I have been searching for images of MMGS shoulder titles but best I have at the moment is this 25th MMGS in a book.

 

David:

First off, I'm assuming you have limited access to this book...correct?   Are you able to scan the image from this book instead of using a digital camera?  

I'm going to PM you with my email address so you can send me an attached copy and I'll see what I can do.   

 

OK you just PM'd me and I totally get it now.  You want me to enhance the shoulder brass in the image with the guy and the range finder.

OK that's a better project and will give it a go.  Alex, if you want to jump in and make this a team effort I'm in!  Also if you could send me a 600dpi or greater scan of the image that would be superb. 

 

JJ

Edited 28 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

Regarding the list of personnel  - as mentioned there are names on  the BWM only roll we have not  linked to 22nd Battery. The more I'm looking the more I'm convinced these are missing members. I've inserted them all into the tracking sheet, and flagged up their discharge dates brings them up either same day or very close to the known 22nd. Next I will put them in numerical order. This roll is 352 pages to check and there are more low MMGS numbers on it. A few scattered  numbers are commissions who would then have other medal entitlements or officer rolls. There is one other little block of  low service numbers and late discharge dates, but presumably from another battery. How it reads is this entry of numbers  starting with Percy Butt 903 and ending with Allan Gilmour 2420 was submitted and entered on the roll as a block. Gilmour being the highest original service number in the battery his enlistment date was 13/09/1915 so the others prior to this date.

Paul, JJ and Alex I will send you this updated list.

[JPJamie]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

Regarding the list of personnel  - as mentioned there are names on  the BWM only roll we have not  linked to 22nd Battery. The more I'm looking the more I'm convinced these are missing members. I've inserted them all into the tracking sheet, and flagged up their discharge dates brings them up either same day or very close to the known 22nd. Next I will put them in numerical order. This roll is 352 pages to check and there are more low MMGS numbers on it. A few scattered  numbers are commissions who would then have other medal entitlements or officer rolls. There is one other little block of  low service numbers and late discharge dates, but presumably from another battery. How it reads is this entry of numbers  starting with Percy Butt 903 and ending with Allan Gilmour 2420 was submitted and entered on the roll as a block. Gilmour being the highest original service number in the battery his enlistment date was 13/09/1915 so the others prior to this date.

Paul, JJ and Alex I will send you this updated list.

 

Thanks David!

 

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Regarding the list of personnel  - as mentioned there are names on  the BWM only roll we have not  linked to 22nd Battery. The more I'm looking the more I'm convinced these are missing members. I've inserted them all into the tracking sheet, and flagged up their discharge dates brings them up either same day or very close to the known 22nd. Next I will put them in numerical order. This roll is 352 pages to check and there are more low MMGS numbers on it. A few scattered  numbers are commissions who would then have other medal entitlements or officer rolls. There is one other little block of  low service numbers and late discharge dates, but presumably from another battery. How it reads is this entry of numbers  starting with Percy Butt 903 and ending with Allan Gilmour 2420 was submitted and entered on the roll as a block. Gilmour being the highest original service number in the battery his enlistment date was 13/09/1915 so the others prior to this date.

Paul, JJ and Alex I will send you this updated list.

 

Brilliant David. Thank you for all your work on this. Paul

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

JJ /Alex.

 Would one of you be able to work on this photo to and enhance the brass shoulder title to make it clearer? I think it's an important find, as not seen on any of the other photos. Apart from marking him as being with the battery, I think it also points to the battery being formed prior to the MGC taking over the MMGS. Likely they were already formed and under training when the changeover occurred. I've seen contemporary newspaper article stating (in mid 1915) they were planning on forming 40 batteries, but this all changed when MGC took over. They actually disbanded some batteries and some restructured and re equipped others with the armoured cars they had acquired from the Royal Naval Air Service.

From what I know they got as far as 25th.I have been searching for images of MMGS shoulder titles but best I have at the moment is this 25th MMGS in a book.

 

David is this the MGC badges and flashes book? And I agree everything points to 22 Bty forming before departure to India - and before the standing up of MGC.

[pjwmacro]

20 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Alex shared a picture with me today I have never seen before.

 

The names of Gunner James Petrie Jamieson's children (in my family) below were just confirmed by my mother Anne Jamieson who was married to John in the image below.

 

The image shows my recently deceased Aunt Margaret Jamieson-English, my deceased Uncle, Andrew Jamieson (lying in the foreground) and my deceased father John Jamieson MBchB (Glasgow University) . My father is the boy on the right with the Alex's great aunt's hand on his shoulder.

 

Sadly, I've never seen pictures of my father and uncle this young, so I didn't recognize them!

 

Thank you very much Alex!

We both had pictures that meant a lot to our families today.

 

Will delete after a few days as this is not entirely on topic.

 

 

Great to see 100 years on this thread bringing together the descendants of those who soldiered with 22 MMGS Bty - who clearly maintained their contacts after the war and kept up their friendships.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 2017-6-24 at 20:04, JPJamie said:

 

Paul: that's a great story!  For what it's worth I have a picture of one of the Ford vans (though from a few years earlier) that has a slight "wreck."  Any idea what kind of plane that was?  It was probably a Royal Aircraft Factory F.E.2b Reconnaissance / Fighter / Night Bomber Aircraft (1915), since your story mentions two wounded airmen as the F.E.2b aircraft had a pilot and observer.  There were usually two Lewis machine guns.  The mention of a Vickers machine gun as well as a Lewis?   So now not sure of the aircraft.

 

Post away if you have Ford van pictures!