22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[MaureenE]

David Murdoch in post 298 on page 12  (being on a previous page I did not seem to be able to "Quote") said: I also found today the battery photo for 25th MMGS - again going by the history they supposedly formed in India in May 1917, but they appear in the UK in The Motorcycle  issue April 13th 1916!

 

There was a unit which formed in India known as 25th Motor Machine Gun Battery (Calcutta Volunteers), see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page of that name http://wiki.fibis.org/w/25th_Motor_Machine_Gun_Battery_(Calcutta_Volunteers)

The earliest date mentioned for this Battery seems to be October 1916, so if the is a mention of an earlier date in the UK  in The Motor Cycle, I'd say it's a different Battery.

 

Also the pages from The Motor Cycle previously provided by David showing the photograph of 22 Battery may be seen online here "Motor Machine Gun Batteries" of the Motor Machine Gun Service including 22nd Motor Machine Gun Battery, The Motor Cycle, Volume 16, March 23rd 1916, pages 282-283 Archive.org.

Regarding  library or other copies of The Motor Cycle, there was a previous GWF thread 

 

Also, is it possible to "Quote" from a post on a previous page. I could not work out how to do this

Cheers

Maureen

[alantwo]

The Bovington Tank Museum has an example of a Matchless Vickers 8B2/M motorcycle machine-gun combination, which may be of interest.

 

Regards

Alan

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Maureen,

Yes, I am pretty sure that you are right. 25th MMGS and 25th MMGBty (Cal Vols), were two separate entities.

Once again, your eagle-eye has picked up an important detail. Good work!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[JPJamie]

Thanks to Maureene I paged through Motorcycle March 16. 1916.  On page 256 there is a story on MMGS recruitment at Coventry.   That's a very nice site as you can "page" through the magazine by just clicking on each page.  Noted that advertisement pages are numerically different and "between" other pages.

Also noted more on page 351.

Here is the 24th Battery MMG

 

Edited 1 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Maureen: 

Here is a copy and paste from a previous page.  It would be nice if there was a "better way" to go back to previous pages and quote here on the last page.  I had to right click, highlight with my mouse and choose to copy what you wrote.  Then I selected the "last page" and chose to paste in below what you previously wrote as a quote....

 

 

"On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 01:02, Maureene said:

Kuldana was one of the cantonments at Murree, which was a "hill station" where the troops were posted during the summer months as it was much cooler. (Now Pakistan). The following images are from

Postcard: View Kuldana, Murree Hills

Postcard: Barracks, Kuldana (Murree Hills) c 1910

 

Cheers

Maureen"

 

Cheers..

JJ

Edited 1 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

Getting back on topic!

Here's another photo from The Motorcycle - issue August 31st 1916. Noted as being sent from India by Pte T Collins.

This identifies Gunner Tommy Collins 1624 

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear David,

Good work!

Many thanks: this research is a credit to Great War Forum in general and to you personally.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[abowell97]

On 6/9/2017 at 23:50, JPJamie said:

Here is "acting" Corporal James Petrie Jamieson at right with shoulder stripe and cap showing badge with two unknowns...

 

Found the album I've been after from my Great Uncle's, a big leather book from India full of new (to me) photos of the battery, India and many of those Walter Patrick and James Jamieson took over the following decade (Well, up to around 1940).

 

Got the final name for this photo, as in the book was Walter's copy of the image with his annotation. It's Gnr. Hargreaves, Patrick and Jamieson.

I'll get a few more up tomorrow, hope this helped.

 

-Alex.

Edited 1 July , 2017 by abowell97

[JPJamie]

27 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Found the album I've been after from my Great Uncle's, a big leather book from India full of new (to me) photos of the battery, India and many of those Walter Patrick and James Jamieson took over the following decade (Well, up to around 1940).

 

Got the final name for this photo, as in the book was Walter's copy of the image with his annotation. It's Gnr. Hargreaves, Patrick and Jamieson.

I'll get a few more up tomorrow, hope this helped.

 

-Alex.

 

Great stuff Alex!  Gunner Hargreaves has been identified! 

[JPJamie]

46 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Getting back on topic!

Here's another photo from The Motorcycle - issue August 31st 1916. Noted as being sent from India by Pte T Collins.

This identifies Gunner Tommy Collins 1624 

 

Great FIND David!  I initially thought the images were different, but they are the same.  The magazine description is also interesting in that a lot of the men were employed at the Coventry motorcycle works.  Too bad the man standing second from the left of the top four men was moving when the image was taken.  If you compare the image I uploaded with this one you uploaded, it seems like the magazine tried to "touch up" his face...he looks like a alien!  LOL!

[david murdoch]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:24, JPJamie said:

David that's a great photograph is a Clyno!  Totally different dimension when you see their equipment in colour.  I see this may be an American web editing tool as colour shows up as being the wrong spelling of color! LOL!

 

+++++

 

Here they are on tour.  What's interesting about this photo is Nicholson's Obelisk is faintly visible in the upper part of the photograph.  The photographer did a nice job of composition as the intent was to get the Obelisk, the human interest of the lad in the foreground and the motorcycles with side cars all in one. Too bad he got it over exposed.  I cut out the date below, which my grandfather penned as 1916.    Being the original is so small I didn't notice Nicholson's Obelisk until after scanning at 600dpi.  The lad in the foreground has just pushed his goggles above his eyes and it does appear to very dusty. Why did my grandfather refer to Nicholson's Obelisk as "Nicolson's[sic] Neck?"  Probably referencing the road?

 

The code (cascading style sheet, JavaScript and HTML) has resized my uploaded image which is understandable.  When editing in Photoshop, I found larger dimensions worked better with this image, however that was not allowed after uploading.  I uploaded it at 954x1322 (width x height) pixels, which is rather large.   

 

Plenty of hit's for it on Google as it's still there and you can visit with Google Earth. Looks like they were heading north and stopped just before the pass. 

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Plenty of hit's for it on Google as it's still there and you can visit with Google Earth. Looks like they were heading north and stopped just before the pass. 

 

Think there is one of Nicholsons Neck in my grandfather's album. I'll check and post next week if so. see post id 99 for Attock Fort on the GTR.

 

David - your list records 2410 Cpl James Lindsey. I can only find a MIC for James Lindsay of that number ? Did Lindsey come from the medal roll? Any thoughrs on which might me correct? Whichever way produces thousands of hits when looking for records - so just trying to find something to focus in the parameters abit ! 

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Found the album I've been after from my Great Uncle's, a big leather book from India full of new (to me) photos of the battery, India and many of those Walter Patrick and James Jamieson took over the following decade (Well, up to around 1940).

 

Got the final name for this photo, as in the book was Walter's copy of the image with his annotation. It's Gnr. Hargreaves, Patrick and Jamieson.

I'll get a few more up tomorrow, hope this helped.

 

-Alex.

 

Well done Alex - first image of Gnr Harry Hargreaves. (Note one if the kfficers was Lt James Hargreaves - just to avoid confusion!)

[david murdoch]

Paul. I think I wrote down Lindsey from the GSM roll, where I first noted him as being with 22nd. He's Lindsay on his MIC and that is the correct spelling - another Scot from Dalkeith Midlothian. He's on the 1911 Census age 28 and a bank teller and living at home with father and a younger brother and sister. So he would be 32 when he enlisted - so looking for one of the older lads in the photos. His address on his MIC is the same - 135  Croft St, Dalkeith   Let me put all the MICs on a zip file and send to you. I have all of them downloaded and quite a few medal roll pages too.

[david murdoch]

Another interesting clipping. Again Sgt Fielder writing to The Motorcycle (May 1917). Stating he had passed Christmas (1916) on leave in Calcutta - so possibly others went there too, and may explain if  any photos marked as being Calcutta.

The propeller mentioned here is also visible in the "trickster " photo, so same bike and I'd presume that is the COs  outfit.

Sgt Barton also in this photo - he also appears in the 1916 photo of group of Sgts. Still not 100% this is Sgt Alfred A T Barton 2220 or possibly an ASC Sgt, but it hints Barton was a known motorcyclist.

The Corporal Sproston mentioned  is Archibald J Sproston another "known" rider . He was a dispatch rider with the Royal Engineers  Cpl. AJ Sproston 28094

Prior to the war was an international level trials rider, and took bronze at the International Six Days Trial 18.-23.8.1913 Carlisle/England

 

 

[david murdoch]

Yet another little piece of historical interest, which explains some things seen in the photos. An article in The Motorcycle May 1917 regarding the design of a badge for the Motor Machine Gun Service. In this it states that the former MMGS personnel were no longer allowed to wear their original crossed guns and MMG badges, but had to wear the regular MGC badge and in some cases having to break the MMG letters off their original badges (and obviously they were none too happy about it!). This explains the battery photos where they are wearing side caps with standard MGC cap badges. This may also help in dating other photos to prior to MGC take over (unless someone is wearing one against regs!). It also means the "MMG" badge was not the badge of the MGC(M) as sometimes written. If it was discontinued  shortly after MGC took over then it means there are a finite number of genuine issued ones, and a good few less genuine ones surviving. 

Interesting the winged wheel design (minus the Vickers) was later used by the RAF 2nd armoured car company, and still in use today with No.2 Squadron RAF regiment.

The lads that wrote this article  were Gunner Fred Atkinson 2281 (15th Battery MMGS) and Gunner Reginald F. Emerson 1256.

 

 

[MaureenE]

15 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 I paged through Motorcycle March 16. 1916.  On page 256 there is a story on MMGS recruitment at Coventry.   That's a very nice site as you can "page" through the magazine by just clicking on each page.  Noted that advertisement pages are numerically different and "between" other pages.

Also noted more on page 351.

 

I noted that the pages on recruitment  also listed men who had been selected, which may be of interest for recruitment information.

 

Thanks also JPJamie for your comments in post 306, the post following the above.

 

The online copies of the Motor Cycle may be accessed from this link on Archive.org

https://archive.org/search.php?query=publisher%3A"London+%3A+'The+Motor+Cycle'"

 

Cheers

Maureen

[JPJamie]

Thanks to Maureen for posting the link to the online copies of MotorCycle Magazine!

 

MOMAGU

 

Names: Sgt. J.R. Slater; Gunner J.T. Gough

"On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."

"We have now been in the country for almost two years..."

"This battery, of course is composed entirely of men who enlisted for the purpose of fighting in France, but we were sent to India; and not knowing what to expect, we were highly pleased to receive this order. "

 

Now we know not only how they got to Rawalpindi, but how long it took to get there.

Also, the reference of "We have now been in the country for almost two years..." compared to the print time on the page of March 28th, 1918, would make them in country two years previous, which matches the time my Grandfather and others were there.

 

I actually searched for "Blighty" in Google and of course figured out it's slang for England.

Funny how MOMAGU sounds Indian, but just means MOtorcycle MAchine GUn

I heard "blighty" while in Scotland, but never made the association with England...learned something today.

Does the reference to the "duration man" mean (the obvious) he's in this for the duration of the war?  

 

The MotorCycle article below is from March 28th, 1918, and contains therein an exact copy of a picture I have in my Grandfather's photograph album...

 

 

 

[JPJamie]

On 02/07/2017 at 13:15, david murdoch said:

Another interesting clipping. Again Sgt Fielder writing to The Motorcycle (May 1917). Stating he had passed Christmas (1916) on leave in Calcutta - so possibly others went there too, and may explain if  any photos marked as being Calcutta.

The propeller mentioned here is also visible in the "trickster " photo, so same bike and I'd presume that is the COs  outfit.

Sgt Barton also in this photo - he also appears in the 1916 photo of group of Sgts. Still not 100% this is Sgt Alfred A T Barton 2220 or possibly an ASC Sgt, but it hints Barton was a known motorcyclist.

The Corporal Sproston mentioned  is Archibald J Sproston another "known" rider . He was a dispatch rider with the Royal Engineers  Cpl. AJ Sproston 28094

Prior to the war was an international level trials rider, and took bronze at the International Six Days Trial 18.-23.8.1913 Carlisle/England

 

 

David:

Below is a photo in my album from Calcutta.  My Grandfather wrote under it "Memorial Black Hole of Calcutta"  However, like the statue of Queen Victoria in Lahore (she was pulled from her pavilion and stuck in an underground museum), it was banished and removed in 1940 from the original site to St. John's Church graveyard.   This is how the 22nd Battery MMGS saw it... 

 

 

[david murdoch]

On 03/07/2017 at 04:23, JPJamie said:

 

David: I have a photo in my album from Calcutta.  My Grandfather wrote under it "Memorial Black Hole of Calcutta."  No idea what that references at this time.

 

 

 

James - see here  - the Black Hole is infamous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta

It's a term still used  - I remember being told regarding my bedroom was " like the Black Hole of Calcutta", it's also used in a shortened version to describe unpleasant places "it's like the Black Hole in here" , and that's where the expression comes form. The monument is still there - so they must have been there on leave and visited it. If you post up the photo should be able to find a modern photo taken from the same spot.

 

[JPJamie]

23 hours ago, david murdoch said:

James - see here  - the Black Hole is infamous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hole_of_Calcutta

It's a term still used  - I remember being told regarding my bedroom was " like the Black Hole of Calcutta", it's also used in a shortened version to describe unpleasant places "it's like the Black Hole in here" , and that's where the expression comes form. The monument is still there - so they must have been there on leave and visited it. If you post up the photo should be able to find a modern photo taken from the same spot.

 

Thanks David!

It was moved and I'm amazed it didn't get a bit "scratched up" in the process, but it probably did.  Would like to get a closer look some day.

 

Edited 3 July , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Thanks to Maureen for posting the link to the online copies of MotorCycle Magazine!

 

MOMAGU

 

Names: Sgt. J.R. Slater; Gunner J.T. Gough

"On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."

"We have now been in the country for almost two years..."

"This battery, of course is composed entirely of men who enlisted for the purpose of fighting in France, but we were sent to India; and not knowing what to expect, we were highly pleased to receive this order. "

 

Now we know not only how they got to Rawalpindi, but how long it took to get there.

Also, the reference of "We have now been in the country for almost two years..." compared to the print time on the page of March 28th, 1918, would make them in country two years previous, which matches the time my Grandfather and others were there.

 

I actually searched for "Blighty" in Google and of course figured out it's slang for England.

Funny how MOMAGU sounds Indian, but just means MOtorcycle MAchine GUn

I heard "blighty" while in Scotland, but never made the association with England...learned something today.

Does the reference to the "duration man" mean (the obvious) he's in this for the duration of the war?  

 

The MotorCycle article below is from March 28th, 1918, and contains therein an exact copy of a picture I have in my Grandfather's photograph album...

 

 

The Motorcycle is a goldmine of information relating the Motor Machine Gun Service! I've seen several references that the troops were receiving their copies sent out to far flung places such as India Mesopotamia and East Africa. The creator J R Slater is   Sgt Joseph Reginald Slater 1591 off our battery list, and the editor  is the "rangefinder" JTM Gough.

The photo you have original copy of must have been taken some months previously  then sent back to UK. Man on the left is an officer - probably one of the section 2nd Lieutenants.

[JPJamie]

1 minute ago, david murdoch said:

The Motorcycle is a goldmine of information relating the Motor Machine Gun Service! I've seen several references that the troops were receiving their copies sent out to far flung places such as India Mesopotamia and East Africa. The creator J R Slater is   Sgt Joseph Reginald Slater 1591 off our battery list, and the editor  is the "rangefinder" JTM Gough.

The photo you have original copy of must have been taken some months previously  then sent back to UK. Man on the left is an officer - probably one of the section 2nd Lieutenants.

 

Wonderful stuff all this!  All these connections!  Thanks for making more of them!

 

JJ

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Thanks to Maureen for posting the link to the online copies of MotorCycle Magazine!

 

MOMAGU

 

Names: Sgt. J.R. Slater; Gunner J.T. Gough

"On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."

"We have now been in the country for almost two years..."

"This battery, of course is composed entirely of men who enlisted for the purpose of fighting in France, but we were sent to India; and not knowing what to expect, we were highly pleased to receive this order. "

 

Now we know not only how they got to Rawalpindi, but how long it took to get there.

Also, the reference of "We have now been in the country for almost two years..." compared to the print time on the page of March 28th, 1918, would make them in country two years previous, which matches the time my Grandfather and others were there.

 

I actually searched for "Blighty" in Google and of course figured out it's slang for England.

Funny how MOMAGU sounds Indian, but just means MOtorcycle MAchine GUn

I heard "blighty" while in Scotland, but never made the association with England...learned something today.

Does the reference to the "duration man" mean (the obvious) he's in this for the duration of the war?  

 

 

Have I read this correctly team?  We are saying that the MOMAGU is the 22 Bty MMGS battery magazine? That is how I have read this - and the Motorcycle has reproduced their articles?  If that's the case that is brilliant - and somewhere, surely, some of the copies will have survived?

 

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Have I read this correctly team?  We are saying that the MOMAGU is the 22 Bty MMGS battery magazine? That is how I have read this - and the Motorcycle has reproduced their articles?  If that's the case that is brilliant - and somewhere, surely, some of the copies will have survived?

 

Paul. That's correct - the produced their own little magazine the name is MOMAGU  MOtor MAchine GUn! The images and write up sent back from India to "The Motorcycle" and they published the article end of March 1918 - so allowing for it to get back they probably they started it beginning of 1918 so could have been several issues! I'm sure a lot of the photos like the football teams and "battery news" would be in it. Scanning through copies of "The Motorcycle" Sgt Fielder  also sent them "updates" from India. I've also seen some others from "known players" by then in the L.A.M.Bs  - they were all part of the motorcycling network, and kept in touch.