Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Dragoon]

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

I'm looking at the KOYLI  chap

If you zoom in his right sleeve, his left as you look at it, you can see the large crown, then there is definitely something in between.

 

It’s just puckering creating a fold where the crown’s been sewn on by hand Chris.  The KOYLI CSgt just has a rank badge on each upper arm, and a marksman and judging distance badge on each lower sleeve.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s just puckering creating a fold where the crown’s been sewn on by hand Chris.  The KOYLI CSgt just has a rank badge on each upper arm, and a marksman and judging distance badge on each lower sleeve.

On looking closer, yes I agree, cheers FROGSMILE👍🏻

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

This one came with a modern pencil annotation saying that it was part of a collection relating to 1st Warwickshire RGA Vol.

I think I’m seeing a BSM with a PROficiency (not an EFficiency - if I’ve learned my lesson correctly) star on his upper arm, and he’s wearing a busby. As for the other aspects of the uniform, I haven’t a clue. It’s postmarked Nov 1906. I think he was on draft conducting duties during WW1 (at least, someone with his name was).

 

 

 

Another very fine photo and I agree with your assessment of the rank and badges.  The date is probably around 1876-77, just before the introduction of the blue universal helmet as a replacement for the busby, (less RHA).

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Another very fine photo and I agree with your assessment of the rank and badges.  The date is probably around 1876-77, just before the introduction of the blue universal helmet as a replacement for the busby, (less RHA).

 

What do you think the likelihood is that this photo could date from much later than the 1870's? Could he have been in the RHA Vols in the early 1900s, for example? 

The reason I ask is: this image is from a studio portrait postcard, the p/c looks clearly Edwardian, the message on the reverse is dated Nov 1906 which also matches the postmark. The sender has written a nondescript message (something along the lines of "I'll be back on the weekend"), he writes in a very neat cursive script which I'd say matches someone schooled in the Victorian era. He signs himself "W E Meggeson". Meggeson is a very rare surname - only 6 with this surname in the MIC's, 1 of whom is a "William E Meggeson" who is a WOII in a post - 1917 number block allocated to the SMidland RFA (number 2 in the block, so presumably a senior NCO in the unit). "William E Meggeson" was awarded a TFWM + BWM (employed on "draft conducting" duties only - so presumably an older long serving WO). I bought this card from a dealer about 25 yrs ago, had been part of a larger collection, the collector had annotated it on the reverse as having been part of collection associated with the "1st Warwickshire RGA Vols ?“ [sic]. The Warwickshire reference could match the S Midlands reference on the MIC. W. E. Meggeson is plausibly the "William E Meggeson" who appears to match the service profile of the man in the photo (a mature Volunteer and a mature Territorial).

Is the busby a complete anomaly which precludes the man in the photo being the author of the card in 1906?

Sorry for the lengthy exposition - just trying to understand what is or isn't possible! 

[FROGSMILE]

There was at least one auxiliary artillery unit that retained the busby as an dress idiosyncrasy, but I think it was the Edinburgh unit from memory.  I suppose it’s possible that there was another, but I do not, off hand, know of it.  In general all gunner units, less the RHA, adopted the blue helmet from 1878, but auxiliary units were always behind the curve when such changes took place as their funding was much more slow moving.

 

Afternote:  upon checking I can confirm that it was the Edinburgh City Artillery Volunteers that retained the fur cap. See images below.  Notice the pre-1908 scarlet piping on collar and cuffs for ‘Volunteers’.  Militia had white and regulars yellow.  It was only after 1908 that the piping colours changed.

 

The 1st Warwickshire Royal Garrison Artillery (Volunteers) were converted in 1908 to be the 1st South Midland Brigade (the 4th South Midland (Howitzer) Brigade was also raised in Warwickshire in 1908).

 

It doesn’t seem possible that he could have been Warwickshire RHA, who were also formed in 1908, given the post dating.  Generally the RHA would have worn dolman style (frogged) short jackets in full dress, whereas your photo shows the tunic style of RFA.  Although whether the newly formed RHA unit had dolmans is a question that hangs in the air given the expense and increasing focus on khaki.  All TF RGA were nominated as Coastal Defence and so would not have worn the riding boots and mounted pattern belt and carriage (sword slings) seen in your photo. An important aspect is the sword itself - the hand guard is not the standard RA pattern.

 

Edited 12 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was at least one auxiliary artillery unit that retained the busby as an dress idiosyncrasy, but I think it was the Edinburgh unit from memory.  I suppose it’s possible that there was another, but I do not, off hand, know of it.  In general all gunner units, less the RHA, adopted the blue helmet from 1878, but auxiliary units were always behind the curve when such changes took place as their funding was much more slow moving.

 

An important aspect is the sword itself - the hand guard is not the standard RA pattern.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your detailed explanation - looks like this particular image is going to have to remain in the ‘undecided’ section of my collection. 

[headgardener]

On with the pre-war images..... Here’s an RE RQMS in Aldershot, dated 1907-08. What does the star above his chevrons denote? (he’s the trainer of the RE Aldershot Command water polo team, in case anyone is wondering - and the owner of a particularly grand tache imo)

Edit: looks like the team are wearing RE shoulder titles on their swimming costumes

 

Edited 12 July , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

Looks like a pretty big tattoo on the arm of the chap sitting next to him

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, headgardener said:

On with the pre-war images..... Here’s an RE RQMS in Aldershot, dated 1907-08. What does the star above his chevrons denote? (he’s the trainer of the RE Aldershot Command water polo team, in case anyone is wondering - and the owner of a particularly grand tache imo)

Edit: looks like the team are wearing RE shoulder titles on their swimming costumes

 

 

An 8-pointed star above 4-inverted stripes is the pre-1915 genetic badge of rank for unit level Quarter-Master-Sergeants (QMS).  Special badges such as grenade, horseshoe, wheel, etc. was positioned between the star and the stripes.  Other QMS of lesser appointments also wore the 4-stripes, but without the 8-pointed star.

 

Edited 12 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Special badges such as grenade, horseshoe, wheel, etc. was positioned between the star and the stripes.

 

Thanks again! So the grenade isn’t generic to the fact of him being RE? Like the grenade above a sergeant’s chevrons?

[headgardener]

Like this one.....

EDIT: shame the photographic emulsion has degraded so much on this image as the texture on the badges is so clear

 

Edited 12 July , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, headgardener said:

 

Thanks again! So the grenade isn’t generic to the fact of him being RE? Like the grenade above a sergeant’s chevrons?

Yes, the grenade was one of the ‘special’ badges to which I was referring.  Those badges were subdivided into three types, special-to-arm (like RE grenade and artillery gun), skill-at-arms (various), and trade (like horse shoe, snaffle bit, etc.).

[headgardener]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, the grenade was one of the ‘special’ badges to which I was referring.  Those badges were subdivided into three types, special-to-arm (like RE grenade and artillery gun), skill-at-arms (various), and trade (like horse shoe, snaffle bit, etc.).

 

Got it! Thanks again

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Like this one.....

EDIT: shame the photographic emulsion has degraded so much on this image as the texture on the badges is so clear

Yes, the grenade was a special-to-arm badge for the RE since only 1881.  As a symbol of course it was also used by others.  The RE had a specific pattern (style) of their own with 9-flames.

 

Edited 12 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Couple of men from E Coy, 1/Norfolks in 1910 (winners of the inter-coy shooting competition, the rather impressive award can be seen in the 1st photo).

Is the first one Skill at Arms + Distance Judging? And the 2nd is company or battalion Scout I think....? Shame the resolution on the image isn’t better.

 

Edited 13 July , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

The crossed rifles with a star above is a musketry prize badge, there were several grades.

The fleur-de-lis with cross at its base was a 1st Class Scout badge.

Their don’t-mess-with-us ‘look’ as regulars is very apparent, it leaps out at you.  I doubt that very many of the younger looking ones were still alive by 1915.  A very poignant image.  If I gave the photo a name it would be “10-rounds-per minute”.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

One chap in the Coy had at least 18 years Good Conduct

 

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, headgardener said:

One chap in the Coy had at least 18 years Good Conduct

 

More like 12 I think, but impressive nonetheless.  The more minor aspects of discipline were so strict and susceptible to breach that it wasn’t easy to stay out of trouble for that long. It’s notable that he has not been promoted.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Their don’t-mess-with-us ‘look’ as regulars is very apparent, it leaps out at you.

A great photo.

Regimental pride is written over all their faces.

And arms turned or twisted just that little bit more to show their badges off.

 

Chris 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

A great photo.

Regimental pride is written over all their faces.

And arms turned or twisted just that little bit more to show their badges off.

 

Chris 

Yes, it’s very noticeable isn’t it.  The shooting trophy is of significance too I think.  It’s probably fairly old, as on the top scroll it reads ‘East Norfolk’, which was the old 9th’s county association pre-1881.  The other scrolls and central Britannia figure look like they might have been fashioned from so-called Indian Silver, which was more affordable for such purposes and often commissioned in India via vendors in the cantonment bazaar.  The backing of the shield has been covered completely in felt and is probably of the regiment’s old facing colour of yellow.  It’s not an item of great intrinsic value and it probably didn’t survive, but as a presentation piece it has real presence and one can imagine the pride of a company in winning it.  These inter-company competitions were greatly encouraged and they fed into regimental battalion teams that then went on to compete in Divisional and Army level musketry competitions.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

Second photo( Norfolk's shooting Coy) next row from the bottom row, first from the left, the chap with the three good conduct stripes, they appear to be of a different pattern?

Bottom row, first from left, is that   QSA  and KSA medal ribbons?

Chris 

Edited 13 July , 2020 by Dragoon

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Second photo( Norfolk's shooting Coy) next row from the bottom row, first from the left, the chap with the three good conduct stripes, they appear to be of a different pattern?

Bottom row, first from left, is that   QSA  and KSA medal ribbons?

Chris 

Yes, and yes.  The stripes are the previous pattern and also worn by the drummer (holding a bugle) say adjacent to the shooting trophy (shield).

[headgardener]

18 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Second photo( Norfolk's shooting Coy) next row from the bottom row, first from the left, the chap with the three good conduct stripes, they appear to be of a different pattern?

Bottom row, first from left, is that   QSA  and KSA medal ribbons?

Chris 

 

Yes, they look broader don’t they? And there’s the hint of that criss-cross pattern that you can sometimes see on rank chevrons around the same era.

Looks like a KSA to the R, so probably QSA as well.

 

The photo is named, but no initials and lots of spelling mistakes. I’ve researched some of it. The 1st man, Cpl with the musketry prize badge - he made it through to the Armistice, got a DCM & MM along the way. Still only ended the war as a Sgt.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Yes, they look broader don’t they? And there’s the hint of that criss-cross pattern that you can sometimes see on rank chevrons around the same era.

Looks like a KSA to the R, so probably QSA as well.

 

The photo is named, but no initials and lots of spelling mistakes. I’ve researched some of it. The 1st man, Cpl with the musketry prize badge - he made it through to the Armistice, got a DCM & MM along the way. Still only ended the war as a Sgt.

The old pattern stripes were comprised of broad tape upon a felt backing with only a narrow ‘light’ (as it’s called) in between.  The later pattern was designed specifically for the SD and comprised herring bone tape formed from mini-chevrons stitched onto drab worsted felt with a much wider light between each stripe.

Edited 13 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE