Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[CorporalPunishment]

10 minutes ago, headgardener said:

The line up in the Farrier class photo is as follows:

1st photo

back row ((L to R)

RHA / ASC / ASC / 3rd D Gds / 19th Huss / 3rd D Gds

 

3rd row (L to R) 

RFA / ASC / 19th Huss / ASC / ASC / ASC / 3rd D Gds

 

2nd row (L to R)

RHA / RFA / Ayrshire Yeo / RHG / ‘Professor’ AVC (evidently the OC of the veterinary school rather than ‘Professor of Shoeing’)

 

front row (L to R)

ASC / Queen’s / W Yorks / RFA

 

2nd photo (there is some overlap between the 2 photos)

back row (L to R)

3rd D Gds / RFA / RFA / RMA / Devons

 

3rd row

3rd D Gds / 2nd Coldstream / RFA / 4th D Gds / RFA / RFA / RHG

 

2nd row

’Professor’ AVC / “Lon H Bde” (therefore London Heavy Brigade RFA TF) / RFA / RFA / Yorks & Lancs

 

front row

W Yorks / RFA / 1st DCLI / RFA / RMA

 

The seated RHG man with the crown above what must presumably be his Farrier badge is listed as ‘Farrier Staff Cpl’ - so top marks to Frogsmile.

 

Here’s the official title of the class photo.....

 

I should have waited I reckon. Forgot the DCLI man as well. Great information there.    Pete.

 

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I make it Household Cavalry, 4th Dragoon Guards, 10th Hussars, 19th Hussars, Ayrshire Yeomanry, Royal Artillery, Royal Marine Artillery, Coldstream Guards, Queen's Regiment, West Yorkshire Regiment, York and Lancaster Regiment, Army Service Corps and Army Veterinary Corps. The man far right at the rear is a puzzler, perhaps Devonshire Regiment or 13th London Regiment, I dunno.    Pete.

 

Excellent, Pete! Our posts just crossed (i just set out the full list in post #1549). You missed out the DCLI man, the one that puzzled you was Devons, and there was no 10th Hussars.

 

As an aside, the RMA man in the front row was serving with ‘O’ Co. RMA at the time this photo was taken, and then 7 months later was posted to HMS Superb, where he remained until April 1918 - not much need for a Farrier there, I’d guess!? The RMA man in the back row was with ‘R’ Co at the time.

[headgardener]

Incidentally, the rank of all the men from mounted regiments is shown as Shoeing Smith (‘S.S’ or ‘Cpl S.S.’), but the ASC men are all shown as ‘S. & C.S.’ - Shoeing and ????? Smith

[CorporalPunishment]

3 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Excellent, Pete! Our posts just crossed (i just set out the full list in post #1549). You missed out the DCLI man, the one that puzzled you was Devons, and there was no 10th Hussars.

 

As an aside, the RMA man in the front row was serving with ‘O’ Co. RMA at the time this photo was taken, and then 7 months later was posted to HMS Superb, where he remained until April 1918 - not much need for a Farrier there, I’d guess!? The RMA man in the back row was with ‘R’ Co at the time.

Thanks for that. Those badges with the PoW plumes are a pain to identify.   Pete.

[RNCVR]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

What a cracker Bryan, I love how the drop shoulders and typically shorter sleeves are clear to see.  Later on I understand that best rig was known as ‘all tiddly’, but I cannot recall the origin of the expression.

 

 

Well that might largely depend upon how broad the shoulders of the wearer were - look at the PO Stoker's build, he would have broad shoulders & very strong arms & would have no trouble filling out a frock.  But they were meant to be somewhat "baggy" in any event.

Many wore their rate & rank badges right up to the shoulder seam, as shown in these Victorian era photos.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

Incidentally, the rank of all the men from mounted regiments is shown as Shoeing Smith (‘S.S’ or ‘Cpl S.S.’), but the ASC men are all shown as ‘S. & C.S.’ - Shoeing and ????? Smith

Shoeing and Carriage Smith (for repairing metal fittings on wagons).

 

2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Thanks for that. Those badges with the PoW plumes are a pain to identify.   Pete.

Yes, I can see that the jacket is shaped like a T and simply cut, not unlike a Cornish Fisherman’s smock in some ways.

Edited 14 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

On 13/08/2020 at 18:33, FROGSMILE said:

Class, or Squad photos, as they are often known in the Army, are my absolute favourites, as they used to be taken in full dress but with undress caps and so one gets a lot of information from a single image.

 

Your quote here made me think of this photo from my collection showing the ‘29th Class’ of 1912 at the ‘Army School Of Cookery For India’....... 😉

 

 

Apologies es for the grainy image, there’s too much contrast for my camera to handle!

 

EDIT: justification for inclusion being the QMS’ chevrons worn rather high up the sleeve. Interesting trio of caps on the staff. The class itself includes an impressive array of regiments - 1/Connaughts, 10/Hussars, 6/Dgns, 14/Hussars, 1/R Ir Rif, 1/OBLI, 2/Rif B, 1/RDF, 1/R Ir Rgt, 1/R Suss, 2/Queen’s, etc etc etc.

Edited 14 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

Your quote here made me think of this photo from my collection showing the ‘29th Class’ of 1912 at the ‘Army School Of Cookery For India’....... 😉

 

 

Apologies es for the grainy image, there’s too much contrast for my camera to handle!

 

EDIT: justification for inclusion being the QMS’ chevrons worn rather high up the sleeve. Interesting trio of caps on the staff. The class itself includes an impressive array of regiments - 1/Connaughts, 10/Hussars, 6/Dgns, 14/Hussars, 1/R Ir Rif, 1/OBLI, 2/Rif B, 1/RDF, 1/R Ir Rgt, 1/R Suss, 2/Queen’s, etc etc etc.

Extraordinary!  That must be the earliest photo of Army cooks in full whites, with headdress, that I’ve ever seen.  It’s interesting that even back then badges of rank were worn on their white working dress.  Certainly not full dress in this case.  Another type of course where photos in working dress were the common format is that for assistant instructors of gymnasia, or later, assistant physical training instructors.  Like the cooks, the distinctive dress of their workplace was worn, woollen pullover jumpers in winter and long sleeved vests, or similar in Summer.  Most other courses continued to wear full dress until 1914.

Edited 14 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

Your quote here made me think of this photo from my collection showing the ‘29th Class’ of 1912 at the ‘Army School Of Cookery For India’....... 😉

 

The photo is fantastic!

Thank you for sharing.

 

Chris 

[RNCVR]

I love their headwear - no standard of wearing them!

 

Great photo!

 

Best....Bryan

[headgardener]

Does anyone have any comments about the uniforms of the 3 instructors? I was wondering particularly about the parent regiment of the SM based on his cap which looks like something I associate with the Bde Of Guards and the peak of which appears to be edged with lace. His MIC shows him as Indian Unattached List (so, seconded from his regiment for duty with the Indian Army, presumably as an instructor) and then as joining the Welch Rgt (his regimental number suggests about autumn 1914). The MIC for the QMS on the R (wearing the forage cap) is also ‘Indian Unattached List’ but no further details.  The QMS on the L appears in the MIC’s as RQMS at the Rif Bde Depot but with an enlistment date in Oct 1914.

Edited 15 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, headgardener said:

Does anyone have any comments about the uniforms of the 3 instructors? I was wondering particularly about the parent regiment of the SM based on his cap which looks like something I associate with the Bde Of Guards and the peak of which appears to be edged with lace. His MIC shows him as Indian Unattached List (so, seconded from his regiment for duty with the Indian Army, presumably as an instructor) and then as joining the Welch Rgt (his regimental number suggests about autumn 1914). The MIC for the QMS on the R (wearing the forage cap) is also ‘Indian Unattached List’ but no further details.  The QMS on the L appears in the MIC’s as RQMS at the Rif Bde Depot but with an enlistment date in Oct 1914.

The central figure is wearing the round forage cap of the pattern 1880 to 1902 that was intended for all officers, but also became the distinguishing headdress for SNCOs holding specialist appointments on unit HQ and formation HQ staff (‘staff sergeants’), as had the previous pattern.  For that reason it was often referred to as a staff cap.  For

 

That particular pattern was the only time that any SNCOs had the broad band of gold braid around the peak that today is the privilege of officers of field rank only.  The cap badge of those on the British-Indian Unattached List was a simple crowned VRI, although officers and warrant officers (after 1915 WOI) had the same cypher, but within a laurel wreath.

 

The QMS on the left is wearing the forage cap that replaced the staff cap, but in the rifle green version worn by the KRRC and RB.

 

The QMS on the right wears a field service cap that is probably dark blue, unless he is from a rifle regiment, in which case it was again rifle green.

 

Edited 15 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The central figure is wearing the round forage cap of the pattern 1880 to 1902 that was intended for all officers, but also became the distinguishing headdress for SNCOs holding specialist appointments on unit HQ and formation HQ staff (‘staff sergeants’), as had their previous pattern.  For that reason it was often referred to as a staff cap.  For

 

That particular pattern was the only time that any SNCOs had the broad band of gold braid around the peak that today is the privilege of officers of field rank only.  The cap badge of those on the British-Indian Unattached List was a simple crowned VRI, although officers and warrant officers (after 1915 WOI) had the same cypher, but within a laurel wreath.

 

The QMS on the left is wearing the forage cap that replaced the staff cap, but in the rifle green version worn by the KRRC and RB.

 

The QMS on the right wears a field service cap that is probably dark blue, unless he is from a rifle regiment, in which case it was again rifle green.

 

 

Many thanks for your comments!

 

 

Btw, regarding that cookery class photo..... i hate to lower the tone of this thread, but is it just me, or does this fellow in the middle remind anyone else of the Swedish chef from the Muppet Show??

 

 

Edited 15 August , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

On 14/08/2020 at 08:07, FROGSMILE said:

The infantry did not wear the farrier badge, but only those corps deemed as mounted.

 

Now, returning to that Farrier course photo, the men from mounted 7nits did indeed have the badge while the infantrymen didn’t. However, here’s an image that I have which I thought would suit this thread, and it seems to show an infantry staff sergeant wearing an interesting combination of uniform elements including a Farrier badge. He’s British Army (not sure which regiment - Royal Scots, perhaps?), taken in South Africa in 1912. There’s also a sergeant from 2/DCLI in the same group, and he also seems to be wearing a Farrier badge (I can’t get a better image I’m afraid).

 

 

 

Edited 15 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

Glad to help.  Did you notice my answer to your previous query, concerning the ASC ‘Shoeing and Carriage Smith’.

[headgardener]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Glad to help.  Did you notice my answer to your previous query, concerning the ASC ‘Shoeing and Carriage Smith’.

 

Yes, I did. Thanks again!

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Now, here’s an image that I found for this thread which seems to show an infantry staff sergeant wearing an interesting combination of uniform elements including a Farrier badge. He’s British Army (not sure which regiment - Royal Scots perhaps?), taken in South Africa in 1912. There’s also a sergeant from 2/DCLI in the same group, and he also seems to be wearing a Farrier badge (I can’t get a better image I’m afraid).

 

That’s the first time I’ve seen infantry with a farrier badge, it is not shown as a potential badge for them in clothing regulations.  I wonder if it was connected with the relatively brief period when all infantry battalions were to maintain a trained mounted infantry section.  I suspect that it was.  Thank you for posting such rare images.  It’s yet another example of the ‘never say never’ watchword when studying uniforms and insignia,

Edited 15 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

23 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s the first time I’ve seen infantry with a farrier badge, it is not shown as a potential badge for them in clothing regulations.  I wonder if it was connected with the relatively brief period when all infantry battalions were to maintain a trained mounted infantry section.  I suspect that it was,

 

I guess it’s interesting to note that the class photo from 1910 showed the infantry men without Farrier badges while this one dated 1912 shows them with badges. Whatever change, if there was a change, happened within that short time frame. Alternatively, maybe the wearing of the badge related specifically to these men’s regiments service in S Africa at that time.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, headgardener said:

 

I guess it’s interesting to note that the class photo from 1910 showed the infantry men without Farrier badges while this one dated 1912 shows them with badges. Whatever change, if there was a change, happened within that short time frame. Alternatively, maybe the wearing of the badge related specifically to these men’s regiments service in S Africa at that time.

The infantry were obligated to maintain a mounted infantry section, trained at Aldershot, after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.

[headgardener]

Some more......

 

Continuing in a Boer War theme, here are 2 artificers on the same howitzer in South Africa during the Boer War. I note that they are wearing different kit, I’m assuming the sergeant to the rear of the gun is RA and that the man standing adjacent to the gun is wearing some form of working gear.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

At that time the RA maintained an Armaments Artificer branch (formed originally from Armstrong (Gun) Armourers trained at the Armstrong factory).  They had their own career stream from gunner to warrant officer, but it was dead men’s shoes.  Your photo shows a gunner artificer and a sergeant artificer.  The argument as to what was best for career management raged for decades, and first the armaments artificers were transferred to the AOC, only to be taken back into the RA some years later, and finally making the move to REME in 1942, where they remain today.

Edited 19 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Heres a cracking Cabinet Card that came with a collection or brilliant SWB cards all taken in India frim 1903 onwards. Detail is superb on his "Frock, Serge, Foreign Pattern" is a badge I have never seen before, I have no clue what it is for. It is certainly a winged Eagle/Bird thing, perhaps a unique India station, local variation. 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Superb image Toby, thank you for posting.  I’ve never seen that extraordinary badge either.  It reminds me somewhat of a shotgun cartridge with a birds head and wings on it.  I do recall reading that soldiers were encouraged to practice shooting snipe in India as it improved their reactions, and marksmanship because of the snap shooting technique that was necessary to shoot the agile little birds.  It’s clearly an unofficial badge in terms of clothing regulations and the fact that only one soldier wears it suggests that it had to be earned.

Edited 20 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

What an interesting photograph.
May be he shot one of those infamous Indian "***** Hawks"! They could certainly make a mess of a well presented uniform. The last time I was in Bangalore (Bengaluru), my friend was hit twice (pooped upon from a great height) within 10 minutes. The mess (and smell) was so bad, we had to go clothes shopping!

Sepoy

Edited 20 August , 2020 by Sepoy

[Sepoy]

Just now, Sepoy said:

May be he shot one of those infamous Indian "***** Hawks"! They could certainly make a mess of a well presented uniform. The last time I was in Bangalore (Bengaluru), my friend was hit twice (pooped upon from a great height) within 10 minutes. The mess (and smell) was so bad, we had to go clothes shopping!

Sepoy

Wow this new upgrade includes a rude word bleeper! I actually typed "sh1te" in full.