Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

The School of Musketry and the School of Gymnasia (and successors) were dressed as infantry from their formation.  Alongside the Infantry they wore the infantry sash.  I know of no others corps (in generic sense) officially authorised, but there have been a great many who have worn it illegally (in an Army sense) from time to time.  It’s called the infantry sash (in supply chain nomenclature*) for a reason.

 

NB.  Members of the corps of armourers also wore the sash whilst attached to their infantry battalion.  It’s interesting that these three corps were grouped together within the clothing regulations published in 1894.
 

*Sash sergeant, infantry, scarlet worsted, and Sash staff sergeant, infantry, crimson silk.  The latter in herringbone weave.

Edited 14 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

52 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The rules were different back then Bryan.  The sash was worn when in review order and when on duty (e.g. Barracks guard, or orderly sergeant of the day), but not when wearing undress uniform for daily routine in barracks.  You can see the difference if the dress for a photo is review order when compared with working dress.  The sash was invariably worn alongside a waist belt.

 

Thanks Froggie, appreciate your response,

Best...Bryan

[Muerrisch]

For the record, the Priced Vocab 1913 nomenclature for Sashes was: 

 

Sashes-Foot Guards, Infantry [except Rifle Corps and West India Regiment] and Highlanders

974 , Silk, Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants 10/-

975, Worsted, Sergeants, also Sergeants West African Regiment 1/8-

 

The silk sash was almost two day's pay at W O rates.

[Toby Brayley]

Band F.C, 2^ndThe Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment).

Latest addition to the collection is this 11 inch by 8 inch mounted and framed photograph of the 2^nd Battalion, The Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment), Band Football Team. The 2nd Battalion was in India at this time. The quality of the image is superb, and it yields some nice touches.

Note the Bandsman’s badge worn on their football shirts.

 

The two “officials” are using signal flags and provide us with a superb study of the 1894 Pattern KD Frock.  

 

The glass on its original frame was very dirty and fogged but it has helped preserve the quality of the image which has now been put back in the original frame and will hang in the study.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Super image Toby, thank you for posting it.  I think it’s the first time I’ve seen a photo from that era of a sports team formed exclusively from members of a regimental band.

 

P.S.  Your study must be a sight to behold!

Edited 15 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Super image Toby, thank you for posting it.  I think it’s the first time I’ve seen a photo from that era of a sports team formed exclusively from members of a regimental band.

 

P.S.  Your study must be a sight to behold!

 

 

Same here - Great photo!

[Muerrisch]

A marvellous site regarding Royal Marine and RN gunnery badges, which had a fair commonality with Army badges.

Worth a look.

 

https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/RMRN Gunnery Badges V5-2.pdf

[Toby Brayley]

Something a little different today. Large mounted photograph, from part of an album recently acquired. 

 

AVLH brass titles Identify these men as Assam Valley Light Horse, all the other images are dated 1912 and 1913, but this is by far the best.  5 and four point stars, lozenge and shooting badges. the style of Bandolier appears to be unique to units in India.  

Edited 24 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Gracious me. A lot there to digest, thank you. Photos of the range of TF/ Yeo.  badges on KD are not ten-a-penny.

 

Many thanks, and Happy Christmas.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Something a little different today. Large mounted photograph, from part of an album recently acquired. 

 

AVLH brass titles Identify these men as Assam Valley Light Horse, all the other images are dated 1912 and 1913, but this is by far the best.  5 and four point stars, lozenge and shooting badges. the style of Bandolier appears to be unique to units in India.  

 

Cracking photo Toby, thank you for posting it.  There’s a good view of the regular soldier attached as the Acting Sergeant Major, far left, with his special rank badge and Sam Browne belt.

We’ve discussed the bandolier before a couple of times I think.  It is indeed the Indian pattern manufactured at the Government of India leather manufactory in Cawnpore (Canpore).

 

Images courtesy of the National Army Museum.

Edited 24 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Cracking photo Toby, thank you for posting it.  There’s a good view of the regular soldier attached as the Acting Sergeant Major, far left, with his special rank badge and Sam Browne belt.

We’ve discussed the bandolier before a couple of times I think.  It is indeed the Indian pattern manufactured at the Government of India leather manufactory in Cawnpore (Canpore).

 

Images courtesy of the National Army Museum.

 

But is he the ARSM?  I have not yet checked my India CR, but TF/Yeo Regs 1912 have four chevrons point up and crown lower sleeve. Perhaps India, with KD, was different. Or perhaps he is clinging to the out-dated badge of a Permanent Staff Instructor without the musketry certificate. Certainly not unknown for senior staff in KD to wear a Sam Browne or lookalike. A third possibility is that the Yeomanry in general were a law unto themselves with the senior badges. In any case they are playing fast and loose ....... the 4 point proficiency star had long been dropped officially by the TF, unless the photo is a few years earlier than the others in the album.

Edited 24 December , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

I’m fairly confident that he’s the Acting Sergeant Major in this particular case, it’s a proper Sam Browne, rather than an Indian pattern sometimes worn by mounted units, he wears boots and highly polished leather gaiters, rather than the puttees of the remainder, and rank badges were worn on the upper arm by some cavalry units as an idiosyncrasy.  It’s also the large crown rather than the smaller type above his chevrons.

Edited 24 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m fairly confident that he’s the Acting Sergeant Major in this particular case, it’s a proper Sam Browne, rather than an Indian pattern sometimes worn by mounted units, he wears boots and highly polished leather gaiters, rather than the puttees of the remainder, and rank badges were worn on the upper arm by some cavalry units as an idiosyncrasy.

 

As I said "a third possibility is that the Yeomanry in general were a law unto themselves with the senior badges". One other wrinkle of doubt ..... he is in a rather junior position in the group, although it is not very formally posed, with the sergeant farrier dumped on the ground.

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

As I said "a third possibility is that the Yeomanry in general were a law unto themselves with the senior badges". One other wrinkle of doubt ..... he is in a rather junior position in the group, although it is not very formally posed, with the sergeant farrier dumped on the ground.

Yes, I was thinking it an unusual arrangement (by regular conventions) too.  I suspect he’s the regular marking his ‘otherness’ out on a flank with all the auxiliaries and their officers central.  Only one officer has a cavalry shoulder belt so I believe that the other might perhaps be the unit surgeon (medical officer).

Edited 24 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Regular, Squadron SM on  attachment?  

He is devoid of any of the TF style insignia. All the other NCOs have Prof stars. 

 

Edit*

 

From Army Regulations India 1909. "Other Sergeant Instructor" 

Edited 24 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[RNCVR]

 I would like to ask a question pls as some Army insignia is a mystery to me.....

The soldier seated to the Officer's right, leaning on his sword, what is the significance of the horizontal diamond insignia he is wearing on his lower right sleeve ?

 

Appear to be at least 4 others wearing same insignia.

Edited 24 December , 2020 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Regular, Squadron SM on  attachment?  

He is devoid of any of the TF style insignia. All the other NCOs have Prof stars. 

Yes, precisely, as a regular attached as Acting Sergeant Major he would have been a Squadron Sergeant Major with his parent regiment.

[Toby Brayley]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, precisely, as a regular attached as Acting Sergeant Major he would have been a Squadron Sergeant Major with his parent regiment.

 

I had just edited as you were responding, with the snippet from the Regs. It would appear he is "Other Sgt Instructor", with the 4 bar and crown, not the ASM? 

 

Edited 24 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I had just edited as you were responding, with the snippet from the Regs. It would appear he is "Other Sgt Instructor", with the 4 bar and crown, not the ASM? 

 

I’m not so clear in my mind off-hand with regards to auxiliary cavalry.  For infantry it’s a large crown over a 4-bar chevron lower sleeve.  The Musketry instructors had a small crossed rifles with crown over above 4-bar chevrons.  The idea was a simple one in that anyone with more than 3-bar chevrons was regular permanent staff.  I imagine, but am not positive that Yeomanry were similar.

Edited 24 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 I would like to ask a question pls as some Army insignia is a mystery to me.....

The soldier seated to the Officer's right, leaning on his sword, what is the significance of the horizontal diamond insignia he is wearing on his lower right sleeve ?

 

Appear to be at least 4 others wearing same insignia.

It’s an efficiency lozenge worn only by auxiliary (part-timers) Bryan and shows currency for each individual year.  After 5-years (later 4) returned as efficient (in various drills) a man received a star, but he only had a lozenge if ‘current’ in that particular year.

[Muerrisch]

50 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I had just edited as you were responding, with the snippet from the Regs. It would appear he is "Other Sgt Instructor", with the 4 bar and crown, not the ASM? 

 

 

Yes Toby you blighter, I was too lazy to go up to my study to dig out the India Regs ........ he is clearly not the ARSM but equally clearly a regular in a high status post.

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 I would like to ask a question pls as some Army insignia is a mystery to me.....

The soldier seated to the Officer's right, leaning on his sword, what is the significance of the horizontal diamond insignia he is wearing on his lower right sleeve ?

 

Appear to be at least 4 others wearing same insignia.

 

For the full story, see the Blog that Toby and I put together, referrenced at the foot of any of our posts.

[Muerrisch]

Toby, the date of the mystery group might be important. The TF [Home] and Yeomanry had dropped the 4 point proficiency star by 1910, and also the 4 bar Permanent Staff chevron except for the ARSM. If you have India Regs 1914 it would be worth a shufti. If not, when I get over Christmas I will look at mine.

Other considerations are as before: lags in changes away from Home, India with different supply chain and regs., Yeomanry a law unto themselves.

 

What I can say with confidence is that several of the badges on view [lozenge, 4 point efficiency, and 4 bar sergeant PSI] were no longer officially current at Home in 1910 and probably not 1908. 

Edited 24 December , 2020 by Muerrisch

[RNCVR]

Thanks Froggie & Muerrisch for the insignia explanation.

 

Best wishes!

Bryan

[Jerry B]

pre war welsh regiment officers with the T below the large size collar badge, of the same design as the OSD cap badge, only sharing three out of a group of 7 photos

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, Jerry B said:

pre war welsh regiment officers with the T below the large size collar badge, of the same design as the OSD cap badge, only sharing three out of a group of 7 photos

 

In the second photo, the officer that is standing and in mounted garb is wearing a different style of drab jacket.  He has eschewed cuff rank and is wearing his rank insignia on shoulder straps.  Seems rather unusual for a line infantry regiment pre-war.

 

Edit: This man's cap badge is different than the others in this series.  Possibly POW Leinster Regt?

Edited 26 December , 2020 by gordon92