Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

Drummers Serge Frock, c1912

 

A serge frock embellished for wear by a drummer. The Frocks worn by Drummers appear to vary greatly by Regiment and time period. 

This rare example has undergone several alterations throughout its life. It was originally the “post 1905” pattern frock. It has been extensively tailored for a small individual (possible band boy?) and white piping has been added to the top of the collar and cuff, this appears to be a common modification to the Frocks worn by Bandsmen and Drummers.

The shoulder straps, originally red with white piping have been dyed blue, possibly in an attempt bring it up to the later 1912 specification. Both the straps and garment have fittings for the attachment of cords.

As many musicians garments continued in use for many decades after the Great War it is difficult to pin down a date or even to confirm if it is a Military alteration. But either way it is an interesting modification to a genuine serge frock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

A very interesting combination of piping added to the frock Toby.  White added to collar and cuff, but blue around the shoulder strap.  I’ve not seen the latter before.  Frocks do seem to vary a lot according to regimental whimsy, and for drummers it wasn’t uncommon for the thinner of the two patterns (thicknesses) of crown and inch drummers lace to be used for the piping.

 

The drummers badge is being used correctly as the indicator of function.  The white piping around the top of the collar was revised to its base in 1912, as it was apparently considered a privilege of the Guards to be at top.  There also seems to have been some college of arms heraldic protocol that the white should form a divide between scarlet and blue.

Edited 13 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

White added to collar and cuff, but blue around the shoulder strap.  

 

Yes its quite an odd one, but it is what it is (whatever that is). I don't think that the piping has been added on the straps, the straps on the "1905" pattern where scarlet with white piping, I assume when they were dyed blue they just left the piping on. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Yes its quite an odd one, but it is what it is (whatever that is). I don't think that the piping has been added on the straps, the straps on the "1905" pattern where scarlet with white piping, I assume when they were dyed blue they just left the piping on. 

 

 

I don’t think that they were dyed blue Toby, as the dyes of that period would simply have made the shoulder strap distinctly purple.  It seems to me that it was just a change of shoulder strap.  The variations are surprisingly diverse and that first came to my attention in a ground-breaking, copiously illustrated ‘study’ by the Fosten brothers (Don and Bryan) in the Military Modelling Magazine that ran between 1982 and 1987, called ‘Cut of the Cloth’.  So popular was it (attracting much attention) that it led to their publishing a now famous book, The Thin Red Line, which covered similar ground, but in much less detail.  The study series itself was far more wide-ranging, and stimulated discussion with fellow enthusiasts writing in with their own findings and observations.  This included such luminaries as Pierre Turner, and for us uniform anoraks they were quite heady days.  I still have all the sections cut out and in loose leafs.

 

NB.  It wasn’t until 1901 that the British War Office signed a contract with AG FARBEN to provide colour fast dyes for military uniform cloth.

 

Afternote:  thinking this through, it might be that black dye was used.  If so that might, I suppose, have had the desired effect, but I would expect it to show on the piping?  As you have the actual garment in your possession, I realise that you are in a far better position to assess the situation than I. Your belief is certainly borne out by the fact that the piping is there at all.  Had they been constructed in the first place as blue straps there would have been no need of piping.

Edited 13 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Yes sorry I should have made it clear they are certainly dyed, they are much more purple in appearance than in the photograph, the colour of the body of the strap is off compared to the piping. If you peel back the piping you can see it red underneath. I don't recall a piped blue should strap ever appearing on the Frocks or Tunics? 

 

The Thin Read line is superb and the Military Modelling articles are superb the latter series like hens teeth. It would be great to have an up to date version as so much more has been found out since then and many more examples, that are missing, found in collections and museums! 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Yes sorry I should have made it clear they are certainly dyed, they are much more purple in appearance than in the photograph, the colour of the body of the strap is off compared to the piping. If you peel back the piping you can see it red underneath. I don't recall a piped blue should strap ever appearing on the Frocks or Tunics? 

 

The Thin Read line is superb and the Military Modelling articles are superb the latter series like hens teeth. It would be great to have an up to date version as so much more has been found out since then and many more examples, that are missing, found in collections and museums! 

Yes, I agree on both counts.  It all makes sense now that we’ve discussed it.

 

A published update would be wonderful.  I imagine that the Fosten’s must be very elderly now, or possibly even passed on.

 

P.S.  The frock’s wearer would've been a boy drummer, rather than a band boy, as the latter would have worn a Lyre badge rather than a drum (assuming qualified).

Edited 13 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Yes, heraldically, colour should never be contiguous with colour [rule not always followed]

White counted as a metal [silver] and yellow as gold. 

I seem to remember that the furs could be used as separators.

I am sure that we have a heraldry expert on board.

 

[and my wife says "blue and green should not be seen without a colour in between"] As I am blue/green colour-blind, my shirts and socks and trousers have to be suitably segregated, especially on winter mornings.

[Toby Brayley]

On 09/11/2020 at 22:25, Muerrisch said:

 

 

 

QUOTE from source: copied from originals in the Institution of Electrical Engineers nearly 40 years ago, show some detail of this Volunteer Unit formed in London in 1896.


The mage taken the previous year on the Isle of Wight shows the searchlight arm badge and the Volunteer Special Service Sections arm badge. In the Pimlico Register in September 1902 it describes two version- drab for SD and scarlet cloth for tunics and frocks. 
 

 

 

 

Sorry Muerrisch and Frogsmile. I completely missed this reply. That is brilliant thank you. 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

An unusual postcard of an unknow proficient serjeant of the Volunteer Force, sent from Grasmere, Cumbria, December 1904. Given the location and the shape of his faint collar badges, I would have an educated guess on him being from the Volunteer Btns of the Border Regiment. Given his apparent age I notice an unusual lack of efficiency stars.

 

[Toby Brayley]

Latest arrival. Postcards of "Musicians" of the 1st (Royal) Dragoons, identifiable by style of "Pill Box" cap (unique to Bandsman/Trumpeters of the 1st RD) and the aiguillettes.  Taken in India c1904. Crossed rifles and GC badges. 

 

A rather rare image to say the least. One of the only images I have seen of this style of forage cap, especially in this order of dress. 

 

 

Edited 17 November , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Fantastic photo Toby, thanks for posting.  A splendid turnout by some very young members of the regimental band who from their obvious ease in uniform I would predict are former Boy entrants.

Edited 17 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Fantastic photo Toby, thanks for posting. 

 

I thought you would like it. It came with this, possibly the finest study of the Musicians forage cap you are likely to ever find!

 

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I thought you would like it. It came with this, possibly the finest study of the Musicians forage cap you are likely to ever find!

 

The pride of these young men of the then senior line cavalry regiment is palpable.

 

P.S.  Those jackets and their collars would have been tailored by the regimental master tailor, and a very fine job he's done too.

Edited 17 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

It always astounds me how talented the Dhobi-Wallah was to keep them that white too! All for a couple of Annas (if they were lucky!).  I couldn't manage it today with a washing machine and an infinite supply of Daz (other brands are avaliable). 

[RNCVR]

Might I ask pls, why are they not wearing the Musician's Lyre badge on their sleeves, or did that come in a later pre war period?

 

The photos are superb, thanks for posting Toby!

 

Best.... Bryan

[Muerrisch]

Oddly enough, at that time "musicians" properly bandsmen of cavalry were not scaled for the lyre and crown badge or its more ornate predecessor.

The dress cords are probably sufficient distinction. "Cavalry bandsmen wear no badge" from Clothing Regs 1914 and earlier.

 

In 1904 there is no mention of boy service qualifying for the Good Conduct Badge although I suspect that it might have been awarded by some units without the extra 1d per day. It was not until 1931 that boy service [if enlisted for 12 years] could count for a badge. By that time [c. 1907 except for some reserved rights]] the penny had been removed anyway.

[Toby Brayley]

33 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Oddly enough, at that time "musicians" properly bandsmen of cavalry were not scaled for the lyre and crown badge or its more ornate predecessor.

The dress cords are probably sufficient distinction. "Cavalry bandsmen wear no badge" from Clothing Regs 1914 and earlier.

 

 

 And to illustrate your point perfectly, here are some Bandsman (one with Cornet) of the 7th DG, note style of Pill box. 

Edited 17 November , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

It always astounds me how talented the Dhobi-Wallah was to keep them that white too! All for a couple of Annas (if they were lucky!).  I couldn't manage it today with a washing machine and an infinite supply of Daz (other brands are avaliable). 

 

Yes and for a very long time by simply beating them on a rock with plenty of soapy water!

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

In 1904 there is no mention of boy service qualifying for the Good Conduct Badge although I suspect that it might have been awarded by some units without the extra 1d per day. It was not until 1931 that boy service [if enlisted for 12 years] could count for a badge. By that time [c. 1907 except for some reserved rights]] the penny had been removed anyway.

 

I recall you looking this up before and vaguely something about the rules changing, but I think more than once, although I cannot remember precisely.  Either way, if you take 2-years off those young faces I don't think that they could have been 18 when the two years began, and it was also policy not to send 'new recruits' to India until they had some time first on the Home Establishment, although I don't know for sure how that was achieved in the cavalry, given they only had the one unit, unlike the infantry.  Presumably they had to spend time at the depot.

Edited 17 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Plenty of "sons of the regiment" in units of the British army overseas. It was typical of the comprehensive albums [which I collect] made at the time to have a "sons of" group, with an assortment of ranks and ages and always the odd band rat or drummer. 

Depends when the regiment was serving overseas. I don't have that knowledge ..... outside my limited interests.

Either way, they are wearing the badges for two years undetected crime, as per regulation or as per regimental custom.

Edited 17 November , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Plenty of "sons of the regiment" in units of the British army overseas. It was typical of the comprehensive albums [which I collect] made at the time to have a "sons of" group, with an assortment of ranks and ages and always the odd band rat or drummer. 

Depends when the regiment was serving overseas. I don't have that knowledge ..... outside my limited interests.

Either way, they are wearing the badges for two years undetected crime, as per regulation or as per regimental custom.

Yes, clearly it was a regimentally unified purpose and arrangement, and not the odd fellow or two being different.

[Sepoy]

On 17/11/2020 at 17:39, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes and for a very long time by simply beating them on a rock with plenty of soapy water!

On my first trip to India, I discovered why the Military did not sew their buttons or insignia on to their uniforms.
Whilst in one of the more rural areas I visited, I sent a number of shirts to be washed. They came back beautifully cleaned and pressed, but with all the buttons smashed to pieces!

Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

On 18/11/2020 at 18:38, Sepoy said:

On my first trip to India, I discovered why the Military did not sew their buttons or insignia on to their uniforms.
Whilst in one of the more rural areas I visited, I sent a number of shirts to be washed. They came back beautifully cleaned and pressed, but with all the buttons smashed to pieces!

Sepoy

Yes, that’s why buttons on military uniform in India were fitted through a whip stitched hole with the loop secured inside with a brass split pin.  Badges of rank, GCB, etc. were as you know fitted via hooks and eyes.

Edited 11 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Army Service Corps group c1903.

A large mounted photograph of Army Service Corps (ASC) personnel c1903. Lots too look at here.

The photograph provides a great study of a variety of ASC garments and rank/trade badges. Note the Serjeants quality Tunics with gold cord detailing instead of the white worsted cord of the “Rank and File”. There is also a VERY rare shot of the “1st Class Staff Serjeant Major” badge of a crown in wreath. Note the much larger gold detailing to the cuff and collars on his “1st Class” tunic.

 

There are two impressive, 8 clasp Queen’s South Africa Medals on display (either side of the SSMs). The officers appear to be from the Connaught Rangers and Norfolk Regiment. The mix of the new “Brodrick” Forage Cap and the older style “Pill Box” Forage Cap place this around c1903/4

 

 

close up of the SSM. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

Close up of the SSM.