Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/12/2020 at 16:22, gordon92 said:

 

In the second photo, the officer that is standing and in mounted garb is wearing a different style of drab jacket.  He has eschewed cuff rank and is wearing his rank insignia on shoulder straps.  Seems rather unusual for a line infantry regiment pre-war.

 

Edit: This man's cap badge is different than the others in this series.  Possibly POW Leinster Regt?

It’s not a drab jacket Mike, it’s a Blue Patrol jacket and being correctly worn with a coloured forage cap with white summer cover, as introduced in DRs of 1904.  Unlike later Blue Patrols the patch pockets on the chest had no pleats.  Rank was worn on shoulder straps.

 

All the officers in the photos have a variant of the regiment’s cap badge with slightly more upright feathers, but standard scroll arrangement.  Interestingly the Leinsters had a variant badge with the same feathers as the Welsh but a standard set of their own, distinctly angular, title scrolls.

Edited 29 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not a drab jacket Mike, it’s a Blue Patrol jacket and being correctly worn with a coloured forage cap with white summer cover, as introduced in DRs of 1904.  Unlike later Blue Patrols the patch pockets on the chest had no pleats.  Rank was worn on shoulder straps.

 

All the officers in the photos have a variant of the regiment’s cap badge with slightly more upright feathers, but standard scroll arrangement.  Interestingly the Leinsters had a variant badge with the same feathers as the Welsh but a standard set of their own title scrolls.

Patrol jacket makes sense. Would have expected the blue to have imaged darker on the photograph. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/12/2020 at 18:25, gordon92 said:

Patrol jacket makes sense. Would have expected the blue to have imaged darker on the photograph. 

There was an identical scarlet pattern and that might be what’s seen here.  Initially (from 1899) officers were expected to have both, but in 1904 the scarlet pattern was replaced (as a requirement) by the double breasted, blue frock-coat.  From that point an officers dress requirement included:

 

1.  Tunic.

2.  Blue Patrol Jacket.

3.  Frock-coat.

4.  Drab Service Dress.

5.  Mess Dress.

6.  Greatcoat.

 

NB.  Both the patrol jackets were distinguished by their ‘patch’ pockets on chest and skirt (the latter as opposed to ‘inset’), and a standard shoulder seam arrangement that became known to military tailors as a ‘patrol’ [type] seam.  These jackets were intended to replace the wide variety of individual ‘regimental patterns’ that had been worn throughout the 1890s.  The new variant still had discrete patterns for Rifles, Scottish infantry and Foot Guards, but all (less the Rifles) were blue once frock-coats became universal.  The scarlet patrol jacket of the general pattern was only in existence for 5-years and so far fewer of them are seen in images and even fewer have survived.  Conversely the blue version was resurrected again before WW2 and a similar version in 1953.

 

Edited 29 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

On 24/12/2020 at 21:53, Muerrisch said:

Toby, the date of the mystery group might be important.

 

Good point, it does indeed appear that the India regs followed the home regs and the prof badges were no longer used, they are not in the 1909 regs.  I Also note that the swords are the earlier 1885 (?) pattern., not the 1908 pattern that feature in the other later dated photos! 

9 hours ago, Jerry B said:

pre war welsh regiment officers with the T below the large size collar badge, of the same design as the OSD cap badge, only sharing three out of a group of 7 photos

 

 

 

 

These are brilliant, thank you for sharing. Nice and candid too! 

[Jerry B]

3 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

In the second photo, the officer that is standing and in mounted garb is wearing a different style of drab jacket.  He has eschewed cuff rank and is wearing his rank insignia on shoulder straps.  Seems rather unusual for a line infantry regiment pre-war.

 

Edit: This man's cap badge is different than the others in this series.  Possibly POW Leinster Regt?

It most closely resembles a collar badge for the Pembrokeshire yeomanry in my eyes, but...

[Toby Brayley]

Colour Serjeant, Royal West Kent Regiment c1890s

Although it doesn’t look to exciting at first, this cabinet card provides a superb and very rare view of a Colour Serjeant in his C/Sjt quality Scarlet Frock. The Clothing Regulations state that the elaborate and expensive crossed flags badge of the C/Sjt was only to be worn on the Tunic. On the Frock, the 3-bar chevron surmounted by a crown was to be worn.

Although I have seen a couple of images of the C/Sjt Frock in group photos, this is one of the only individual portraits, taken in a studio, that I have seen of the garment being worn. The frock of the C/Sjt is made of fine cloth rather than the Kersey of the “Rank and File”.

 In the 1897, Price List of Clothing and Necessaries there are listed 6 different qualities of “Cloth Scarlet Frock”, all with different prices; Warrant Officer (32s 9d), Staff Serjeant (29s 8d), Band Serjeant (28s 9d), Colour Serjeant (15s 2d), Serjeant (14s 4d) and Bandsman (12s 7d).

 

 

[Jerry B]

35 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

 

These are brilliant, thank you for sharing. Nice and candid too! 

Toby, the remainder of the group, very candid in their pj's

[Toby Brayley]

1 minute ago, Jerry B said:

Toby, the remainder of the group, very candid in their pj's

 

 

 

 

 

Superb!!! Thank you. 

 

I wonder if it ever crossed their minds, that they might appear for mass viewing over 100 years later! 

[Muerrisch]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not a drab jacket Mike, it’s a Blue Patrol jacket and being correctly worn with a coloured forage cap with white summer cover, as introduced in DRs of 1904.  Unlike later Blue Patrols the patch pockets on the chest had no pleats.  Rank was worn on shoulder straps.

 

All the officers in the photos have a variant of the regiment’s cap badge with slightly more upright feathers, but standard scroll arrangement.  Interestingly the Leinsters had a variant badge with the same feathers as the Welsh but a standard set of their own title scrolls.

 

I remind this discussion regarding the treatment of colour by period film. The scarlet end of the spectrum habitually showed dark, the blue end showed light. There are caveats regarding pastel shades, and regarding reflectivity of material, but unless a rare film was used, the truths are just that. Given that the Patrol looks darker than khaki drab, my vote goes with scarlet.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Colour Serjeant, Royal West Kent Regiment c1890s

Although it doesn’t look to exciting at first, this cabinet card provides a superb and very rare view of a Colour Serjeant in his C/Sjt quality Scarlet Frock. The Clothing Regulations state that the elaborate and expensive crossed flags badge of the C/Sjt was only to be worn on the Tunic. On the Frock, the 3-bar chevron surmounted by a crown was to be worn.

Although I have seen a couple of images of the C/Sjt Frock in group photos, this is one of the only individual portraits, taken in a studio, that I have seen of the garment being worn. The frock of the C/Sjt is made of fine cloth rather than the Kersey of the “Rank and File”.

 In the 1897, Price List of Clothing and Necessaries there are listed 6 different qualities of “Cloth Scarlet Frock”, all with different prices; Warrant Officer (32s 9d), Staff Serjeant (29s 8d), Band Serjeant (28s 9d), Colour Serjeant (15s 2d), Serjeant (14s 4d) and Bandsman (12s 7d).

 

 

That’s indeed a super photo Toby, thank you for posting.  It’s interesting to compare the ascending cost of the various qualities of frock.

[Toby Brayley]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s indeed a super photo Toby, thank you for posting.  It’s interesting to compare the ascending cost of the various qualities of frock.

 

And here is the Frock, the late 1890s version, to a non Royal regiment badged to Colour Sergeant. Note internal pockets for FFD and Army Form 2067 "Description Card for  Active Service"

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Toby, that’s a super set of images.  I’m especially interested to see the insides, a view not often seen.

[Muerrisch]

15 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Colour Serjeant, Royal West Kent Regiment c1890s

Although it doesn’t look to exciting at first, this cabinet card provides a superb and very rare view of a Colour Serjeant in his C/Sjt quality Scarlet Frock. The Clothing Regulations state that the elaborate and expensive crossed flags badge of the C/Sjt was only to be worn on the Tunic. On the Frock, the 3-bar chevron surmounted by a crown was to be worn.

Although I have seen a couple of images of the C/Sjt Frock in group photos, this is one of the only individual portraits, taken in a studio, that I have seen of the garment being worn. The frock of the C/Sjt is made of fine cloth rather than the Kersey of the “Rank and File”.

 In the 1897, Price List of Clothing and Necessaries there are listed 6 different qualities of “Cloth Scarlet Frock”, all with different prices; Warrant Officer (32s 9d), Staff Serjeant (29s 8d), Band Serjeant (28s 9d), Colour Serjeant (15s 2d), Serjeant (14s 4d) and Bandsman (12s 7d).

 

 

Are these prices with frock made up with ranking please.?

Previous PVCN c 1892 had garment priced badged ..... there no prices for badges other than metal

[Toby Brayley]

27 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Are these prices with frock made up with ranking please.?

Previous PVCN c 1892 had garment priced badged ..... there no prices for badges other than metal

 

So my original copy is actually April 1896 (issued and annotated through 1897, and declared obsolete by AO43 of 1898) .  "The Value includes cost of Fitting and Marking, but not of metal badges are numerals" 

 

There are no prices for anything other than metal badges. It does however cover the making up cost from Corporal to Serjeant etc, but I believe this is just the labour cost and not the cost of the chevrons.

 

Other garments such as cloak and greatcoat (not Frock, Tunic etc) are listed as "with chevrons and badges complete" 

 

Once scanner is fixed I will get a copy over to you! 

 

Edited 27 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. It looks as if the method was as 1891 and 1892, where the prices include the badges and extra braiding and bells and whistles. Thus, the basic garments might [I stress might] be just the three qualities/. A grey [scarlet] area I think!.

[Toby Brayley]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

 Thus, the basic garments might [I stress might] be just the three qualities/. A grey [scarlet] area I think!.

 I would very much agree with that, my research, on the limited number of garments I have been to find would indicate that they are marked as to their quality. The differences appear to be both internal  (lining quality, lined or unlined) and external with quality of fabric.. Obviously more apparent on the 1st class garments, worn by those entitled to them. 

 

I am slowly getting there but surviving, identifiably marked garments are like hens teeth! 

 

The answer lies in the sealed patterns, the later patterns c1912 seem to group the tunics and frocks in SPs of Rank and File, Sergeants (inc C/sgt) and then Staff Sgts. I am confident in them. I have not be able to trace many surviving Victorian Sealed/Standard examples. 

 

 

 

Edited 27 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

It’s especially interesting to see the stamped labels Toby.  Your research seems to have revealed that towards the end of Victoria’s reign the upper garments had sub-divisions within the three basic types.  There were always clothing class variations before of course, e.g. between artillery and cavalry (some differences within the cavalry too), and between foot guards and line, but the differences you have outlined of lining and quality of cloth, etc. seem a stage further.  Colour Sergeants were always a different case, in that they were dressed as sergeants, but I read in one contemporary regulation that they had the rank and status equivalence of third class staff sergeants before 1881.  

Edited 27 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Jerry B]

On 26/12/2020 at 16:22, gordon92 said:

 

In the second photo, the officer that is standing and in mounted garb is wearing a different style of drab jacket.  He has eschewed cuff rank and is wearing his rank insignia on shoulder straps.  Seems rather unusual for a line infantry regiment pre-war.

 

Edit: This man's cap badge is different than the others in this series.  Possibly POW Leinster Regt?

 

Looking again, I think it is the welsh regiment silver & gilt which would be correct for the forage cap

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/12/2020 at 10:09, Jerry B said:

 

Looking again, I think it is the welsh regiment silver & gilt which would be correct for the forage cap

 

Yes I think so too.  The Welsh Regiment cap had a black oak leaf band, it’s interesting to compare its apparent colouration / hue in the reflected sunlight (note the shade cast over his right shoulder and neck) with that of the patrol jacket.  The enclosed image shows a later pattern of cap, but it was largely similar and sufficient to compare.

 

Edited 29 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Jerry B]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think so too.  The Welsh Regiment cap had a black oak leaf band, it’s interesting to compare its apparent shade or hue in the reflected sunlight (note the shade over his right shoulder and neck) with that of the patrol jacket.  The enclosed image shows a later pattern of cap, but it was largely similar and sufficient to compare.

 

 

 

indeed frogsmile and of course that is a lovely cap being as it is mine

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Jerry B said:

 

 

indeed frogsmile and of course that is a lovely cap being as it is mine

Indeed it is.  Mr google has its image too, but not the cap itself, which I imagine still remains yours. Now you mention it I think I recall you asking questions about the small chin strap buttons in the VWF (or B&CBF - Toby Purcell) some years ago, to which I gave you a long and informative reply.

 

NB.  Scarlet patrol jackets invariably had coloured facings, blue patrol jackets did not, hence the universal description as ‘Blues’.  Other than that the cut was standard.  Welsh Regiment wore scarlet patrol jackets with white facings, similar to below.  It was quite common to not wear collar badges with this form of dress and quite a number of regiments never did.

 

Edited 29 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

On 27/12/2020 at 17:09, FROGSMILE said:

It’s especially interesting to see the stamped labels Toby.  Your research seems to have revealed that towards the end of Victoria’s reign the upper garments had sub-divisions within the three basic types.  There were always clothing class variations before of course, e.g. between artillery and cavalry (some differences within the cavalry too), and between foot guards and line, but the differences you have outlined of lining and quality of cloth, etc. seem a stage further.  Colour Sergeants were always a different case, in that they were dressed as sergeants, but I read in one contemporary regulation that they had the rank and status equivalence of third class staff sergeants before 1881.  

 

I doubt the theoretical proposal of frock sub-divisions within the three basic types: First class, sergeants', and rank and file.

The 1891 and 1892 PVCN have no listings for badges other than metal. The implications are either that there was a separate catalogue for all "cloth" badges, including rank, or that frocks were supplied with ranking [and appropriate lace etc] .

PVCNs make great stress on two frocks that are NOT supplied with badges; band sergeant and sergeant drummer. Comparing the prices for infantry frocks through all the line infantry ranks, and assuming just the three standard classes for clothing, shows good but not perfect correlation with the price of badges listed in later PVCNs. There was very little price inflation in the period 1890 to 1910.

I have PVCN 1891, 1892, [Toby has access to an edition to plug this gap] 1907, 1914, 1926 and most of the later ones.  The 1907 marks a massive change in presentation and is very comprehensive.

[FROGSMILE]

If that is true then what Toby says is presumably incorrect.  I thought that he'd made quite a good case.  In particular, although I've long known of tunics in various qualities, I'd not until now heard of undress frocks in special, superior material (cloth) for the 1st Class staff sergeants.  That appears to have been a late innovation.

Edited 29 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Frocks are the great known unknown, partly because [compared with tunics] few survive.

[FROGSMILE]

And so Toby might well be correct, frocks have been the issue concerned in this particular image.  It wasn't a tunic.