Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

A superb photo Toby, thank you for posting.  The numeral is strikingly large alongside the Dorset title.

Edited 1 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

That's a very impressive photo. Could I ask, what was the reason for the change from cloth shoulder titles to brass? 

 

Cheers, Pat.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

That's a very impressive photo. Could I ask, what was the reason for the change from cloth shoulder titles to brass? 

 

Cheers, Pat.

They had already been adopted for full dress a few years before, Pat (and on khaki drill since the late 1890s), and there was apparently also a spike in wholesale wool prices.  It was realised that an economy of scale and simplified supply chain could be achieved by standardising metal titles for all forms of dress and the change was phased in from 1907.  The cloth titles were finally made obsolete in 1910.  Ironically the process reversed midway through WW1 and cloth titles were reintroduced, but principally on drab cloth slip-on patches, although these too soon became stitched to the top of the arm.  By the last year of the war some units, e.g. London Regiment battalions and Foot Guards, had returned to coloured cloth titles, once again, positioned in an arc in line with the top of the shoulder seam and, as so often, the wheel had turned full circle.

Edited 2 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks very much, that's nice and clear - interesting the cyclical, economic nature of it. 

[Toby Brayley]

Frogsmile hit the nail on the head. It's about this time that some of the cloth trade/proficiency/prizes badges also started to change to brass,  some of the more ornate worsted badges are surprisingly expensive! 

 

A couple of new additions. 

 

A rare view of the gold “crossed cannons, surmounted by a shell in wreath” badge. The shell in wreath, above the cannons was awarded to members of 1st prize battery.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Frogsmile hit the nail on the head. It's about this time that some of the cloth trade/proficiency/prizes badges also started to change to brass,  some of the more ornate worsted badges are surprisingly expensive! 

 

A couple of new additions. 

 

A rare view of the gold “crossed cannons, surmounted by a shell in wreath” badge. The shell in wreath, above the cannons was awarded to members of 1st prize battery.

 

Superb images Toby!  That’s the very first time I’ve ever seen a photo of the shell inside wreath badge so clearly.  Thank you for posting it. 
 

It’s interesting that both photos appear to show Garrison artillerymen.

Edited 2 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Thanks very much, that's nice and clear - interesting the cyclical, economic nature of it. 

Yes Pat, you can imagine the demand for brass for artillery shells, SAA ammunition, horse harness, and tarnish resistant fixtures on shipping must have been enormous.

Edited 2 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Would the 1st prize battery badge be an annual award?

 

(it's like 20 Questions today, sorry folks - to be honest, I'm staring morosely at 60+ undergraduate Academic Writing essays, which seem disinclined to mark themselves and which I can't bring myself to start; this Forum is the ultimate procrastination hideout )

[Muerrisch]

Pat

20 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Would the 1st prize battery badge be an annual award?

 

(it's like 20 Questions today, sorry folks - to be honest, I'm staring morosely at 60+ undergraduate Academic Writing essays, which seem disinclined to mark themselves and which I can't bring myself to start; this Forum is the ultimate procrastination hideout )

Gunnery Skill-at-Arms Biennially for Garrison Artillery, optionally annually.

Batteries of Position and Field Artillery annually. VF Regs 1901. Article 243/5 refers.

Including the Layer badge there was a total of seven for competition, three prizes for individuals, three for every man in the prize-winning battery etc.

The rules for VF artillery changed frequently, Toby's splendid examples are very early versions.

[Toby Brayley]

17 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

, Toby's splendid examples are very early versions.

 I don't think I have shared these later examples yet. Of course I am using your excellent work as my reference!

 

Below:  Crossed guns (that replaced the cannon style in 1898) surmounted by a crown the later 1st Prize Battery badge. RGA c1908.

 

Below: c1900, with 2nd Prize Battery, crossed guns (rather than the Cannons) and star) and possible "G in Wreath" as worn by efficient gunners?

 

Edited 2 February , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[Pat Atkins]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Pat

Gunnery Skill-at-Arms Biennially for Garrison Artillery, optionally annually.

Batteries of Position and Field Artillery annually. VF Regs 1901. Article 243/5 refers.

Including the Layer badge there was a total of seven for competition, three prizes for individuals, three for every man in the prize-winning battery etc.

The rules for VF artillery changed frequently, Toby's splendid examples are very early versions.

Thank you - another nice, clear explanation. 

[Toby Brayley]

Bombardier Rough-Rider, Royal Horse Artillery, c1890s

Keeping the RA theme going. A brilliantly crisp Cabinet Card, trimmed to fit in an album. A fine study unknow Bombardier Rough Rider of the Royal Horse Artillery c1890s, most likely taken in India. The 1894 Clothing Regulations (CRs) state that a Corporal in the RHA had a two bar chevron and a Bombardier had a single bar chevron.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

What a super sharp image Toby, you can almost feel the dust on his boots and it’s the first CDV I’ve ever seen where both undress and full dress headgear are shown in the same frame.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 3 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

On 03/02/2021 at 14:01, FROGSMILE said:

What a super sharp image Toby, you can almost feel the dust on his boots and it’s the first CDV I’ve ever seen where both undress and full dress headgear are shown in the same frame.  Thank you for posting.

 

Its a cracking image! Good point about the headdress, I can't recall seeing it either! 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 February , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

1st Cornwall Royal Garrison Artillery Volunteers.  Brilliant array of badges; Gun Layer, 2nd Prize Battery (crossed guns with star), proficiency and efficiency stars and lozenge.  A rare view of the Serjeant Instructor of Gunnery badge.  According the to the CRs the SIG wore this rather elaborate badge consisting of "Crown, gun, also crossed guns, crown and grenade, worn on chevron" The "Assistant Instructor of Gunnery" wore the same badge minus the larger crown and the chevrons of his rank. He appears to be a regular. Note the Martini Enfield Artillery Carbines.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Superb photo Toby, thank you for posting it.  The badges of Instructors of Gunnery were indeed very elaborate compared with others and seem to have evolved after the Crimean War.  There is a super book showing Royal Artillery Standing Orders and Trumpet and Bugle Calls (dated 1864), that illustrates all the RA NCO and officer ranks for the first time.  There are digital examples of the book freely available online.

 

The instructors of gunnery with the then Volunteer Force (subsequently TF) were indeed regular permanent staff.  It’s quite sobering to note that the VF Gunners were still only equipped with a single shot carbine just 7-years before the great conflagration of WW1.

Edited 7 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

.

 

The instructors of gunnery with the then Volunteer Force (subsequently TF) were indeed regular permanent staff.  It’s quite sobering to note that the VF Gunners were still only equipped with a single shot carbine just 7-years before the great conflagration of WW1.

 

It is indeed! I think the latest I have seen them is 1910 (and then again in the Great War as an emergency measure with RDC types and home defence units). 

 

It is also interesting to see the 5 button Frocks (note 1 V Cornwall on shoulder straps.) worn here, adorned with such "bling".  I know they badges were approved for wear on them, but I don't think I have seen them so well embellished before. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

It is indeed! I think the latest I have seen them is 1910 (and then again in the Great War as an emergency measure with RDC types and home defence units). 

 

It is also interesting to see the 5 button Frocks (note 1 V Cornwall on shoulder straps.) worn here, adorned with such "bling".  I know they badges were approved for wear on them, but I don't think I have seen them so well embellished before. 

Yes, it’s a superb quality badge, and just like the infantry colour sergeants full dress badge was reaching the end of its practical use.  To show how little it had changed since 1864, I enclose the illustration from the book I mentioned.

 

[Toby Brayley]

“Assistant Instructor of Signals”, Suffolk Regiment, 1880s

 

 I believe this “Assistant Instructor of Signals” with “Crossed Flags above chevron”, is  a Lance Serjeant rather than a full Serjeant as his chevrons are not bullion, but worsted. On closer inspection you can clearly see the 3rd chevron has been added to the corporal’s rank.

Over his right shoulder he wears the crimson sash. He has a claspless Afghanistan Medal, for service in the 2nd Anglo-Afghan War, most likely awarded when serving with the 12th Regiment of Foot.

 

 

 

Edited 2 March , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

A cracking photo Toby that shows the jam-pot cuff tunic very well.  I am not 100% positive looking on a phone screen, but it appears as if he might have patch type shoulder titles unless it’s a slight fold in the cloth.  That would surprise me if it is a patch as I’ve generally seen them more on frocks.  What do you think?
I believe you’re correct that he’s a lance sergeant and for the same reasons that you’ve outlined.  His sash was more red I think than crimson.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 2 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

  Thank you for posting.

 

Most welcome.  On close inspection it does appear to be a standard (non patch type) shoulder strap.  Sash colour wise I was only going on the 1880s/1890s description of Crimson. As discussed previous the RACF accounts and ledgers describe them as "Turkey Red", a closer match to crimson than red in my opinion. Here is an extract from 1890s Standing Orders interesting to note that L/Sjts are also mentioned. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Most welcome.  On close inspection it does appear to be a standard (non patch type) shoulder strap.  Sash colour wise I was only going on the 1880s/1890s description of Crimson. As discussed previous the RACF accounts and ledgers describe them as "Turkey Red", a closer match to crimson than red in my opinion. Here is an extract from 1890s Standing Orders interesting to note that L/Sjts are also mentioned. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Toby, I confess that despite our earlier discussion I had no idea that Turkey Red was a shade close to crimson and I don’t doubt what you say if you’ve seen those shades in the flesh as it were.  I’m really just going by the many very old worsted sashes that I’ve seen and examined in various regimental museums, as the thing that struck me was that the worsted wool type had a much closer to scarlet hue, albeit age faded, whereas the First Class silken sashes with their distinctive herringbone bone weave and thinner construction were a much darker red colour that I’d thought to be crimson.  It’s useful to see such sashes side-by-side in colour to see what I mean.  Most notably the First Class sash (worn by infantry staff sergeants and later warrant officers) was much closer to the shade worn by officers, which generally seems to have been described as Crimson, except that their (officers) sashes were made of a type of woven netting.  Presumably the term Turkey Red was chosen for a reason, but the difference between the two shades is quite stark.  The two types of sash still exist but both are now made from synthetics and sadly are now much closer in colour for some reason, as it removes the instant recognition of superiority.

Edited 2 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

I don't have any of the"modern" style scarlet sashes, but when side by side with the older style the colour difference is stark. Below are a couple of my "crimson" style and against the scarlet tunics the contrast can be seen. The camera doesn't really do them  justice. 

[Muerrisch]

Toby, where does the appointment title "assistant instructor of signals" come from regarding the lance-sergeant portrait please?

It was stated recently on the Forum that only sergeants could be such.

 

Turkey red is not a defined colour as I understand it, but an ancient process that produces a small range of colours slanted towards the crimson end of red. I only get this from Google, I hasten to add.

 

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

I don't have any of the"modern" style scarlet sashes, but when side by side with the older style the colour difference is stark. Below are a couple of my "crimson" style and against the scarlet tunics the contrast can be seen. The camera doesn't really do them  justice. 

Yes that’s a more dark shade I think, although it’s not the herringbone weave that I was referring to.  It’s always difficult to see the original true-colour when we’re looking at something so old of course given how age leads to change, sometimes lighter and sometimes darker.  
 

The following description comes from a Canadian maker of sashes and it’s interesting that they too mention the now WO1 (only) sash as being ‘Crimson’, whereas a Sergeants sash is invariably referred to as Red (I wonder if today’s equivalent of PVCN still describes it as Turkey Red):

 

“Traditionally made of a mixure of silk and wool (because the warrant officer was between the officer, who wore a silk sash and the sergeant, who wore a woolen sash). Now spec’d to be made of polished cotton, we’ve continued to maintain some of the original fibres. In the correct “faded” crimson colour. Sizes Small, Medium, Large and Extra-Large. Additional sizes by special order.”

 

 

Edited 2 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE