Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Pat Atkins]

Great photo. And what's the rank of the musical looking gent, centre?

 

As noted, that lad looks very young for his rank doesn't he?

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

A new arrival in the form of a Gale & Polden Ltd photographic postcard showing Members of a Territorial Force Royal Engineers Unit probably on Summer Camp?

The seated Sergeant at the front appears to be very young in comparison to the others and also appears to be wearing what appears to be a pocket watch in a leather case on his wrist.

Could someone confirm the ranks of the two Men wearing the four inverted chevron badges please?

 

Regards Simon.

That is a cracking photo of a RE sergeants’s mess tent, Simon, thank you for posting it.  On the left side of the frame are the Acting Sergeant Major (crown over 4-inverted stripes), a Staff Sergeant Instructor of Gymnasia (in TF units regimentally badged), the Quarter Master Sergeant (8-point star over 4-inverted stripes) and the Band Master (a Sergeant Major - the TF did not have warrant officer status until 1915 reforms).  The other three are all sergeants.  All of them have the RE grenade arm badge adopted to mark out SNCOs of the Corps of Royal Engineers in 1881.

Edited 17 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

Frogsmile,

 

Many thanks for identifying the relevant ranks on show, I assume the Band Master would be a Warrant Officer in rank with the Band Master title as his appointment?

 

Simon.

[Surreyguardsman]

I see you have just answered my question in your last post, many thanks indeed.

 

Simon

[Dragoon]

8 hours ago, Surreyguardsman said:

 

A supurb photo!

A nice shot of the Edward VII cap badge on the young Sergeants cap.

Cheers

 

Chris 

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, Surreyguardsman said:

I see you have just answered my question in your last post, many thanks indeed.

 

Simon

I forgot to reply to your query about Summer camp Simon.  I think that it undoubtedly is.  Notice the two fine quality Panama hats on the left.  I have seen these worn before by TF soldiers when stood down at the end of the day’s parades (usually mid-afternoon) when they were permitted to relax.  The younger fellows tended to walk-out of the lines in their smartest uniform, often to flirt with local girls for whom the annual summer camp was by all accounts a pleasant distraction, whereas the older men, such as the Band Master in this case, would often relax in the late afternoon sun with a beverage or two.  These summer training camps were often the nearest that these working class and lower middle class men had to an annual holiday.  In those days it was a significant factor towards successful recruitment to have what was in effect a paid holiday comprising manly events like shooting, marching, field manoeuvres, and sport such as football and cricket, as well as exploring the local villages when stood down from parades.

Edited 18 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

Thank you Chris, it's a photograph I'm very pleased to have found.

 

Frogsmile, thanks for the extra information,

 

Regards, Simon.

[Muerrisch]

Surreyguardsman.

 

Your TF Royal Engineers group contains, in the senior central position, a soldier who is, from his badge, a bandmaster.

 

As I expect you know, the TF was administered by County Associations, centrally funded but semi-autonomous on how the funding was spent. As far as I can tell from my collection of TF Regulations and Orders, there was no Establishment for a band in any of the TF arms of service …….. indeed there was no distinction between Peace and War Establishments, except for a limited number of War augmentations. Given that the TF was permanently short of numbers, the Treasury reflex would be to discourage posts that had no war-fighting role.

 

TF Regs do however allow the recruiting of bandsmen as such, and, one assumes, the addition of a bandmaster, but this was over and above the official numbers and posts. To have a unit band was discretionary, and funding was tucked away in a portmanteau instruction,  paragraph 808 …….Postage and stationery[including recruiting posters]   ….. band and prize expenses, within reasonable limits.

 

The reality of the era was that no self-respecting TF unit that could possibly raise a band would not do so [RE were officially to have trumpeters/buglers depending on role]. Apart from anything else, a band would be good for recruiting and morale, and probably play for Mess functions. It may well be that the Officers contributed to a band fund, as was customary.

 

Which brings me to the venerable bandmaster, wearing the Warrant Officer Bandmaster badge. My supposition is that he may be a time-served regular, happy to serve a little longer in a prestigious post. Like the band itself, his post appears on no Establishments [and, incidentally, neither does the Gymnastics Staff Sergeant].

The Pay Warrant of 1913 [the nearest I have to the date of the photo] gives the Bandmaster 6/- per day, whereas the ARSM is paid 5/9-. The Bandmaster would presumably have to be paid from the discretionary fund, and the ARSM through the usual Regular channels, as para. 885.  

 

Caveat: Engineer Pay is very complicated so I am, as ever, open to correction.

Edited 18 January , 2021 by Muerrisch
to add pay details

[FROGSMILE]

Just to avoid any risk of confusion, Simon, despite his central position in the photo the Band Master (BM) is not the most senior man in the group, the Acting Sergeant Major is, not least by virtue of his appointment.  Today we would call the latter the RSM, but things were more complicated back then.

 

Best wishes,

FS

Edited 18 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

Many thanks to you both for the very detailed and informative extra information.

 

Regards, Simon.

[Surreyguardsman]

Another recent arrival to the collection is this interesting photographic postcard showing a group serving with the 6th Battalion, The East Surrey Regiment in 1908.

The reverse of the card has the senders details as Private J Dedman, 6 Bat, E Surrey Reg, G Company, D Line, Hollingbury Camp, Brighton although we do not know which Man this relates to in the photograph.

The Private Soldiers shown wear what I believe is referred to as the 'Norfolk' jacket with the black buttons of the Battalion and the black 'Rifles' style cap badge in their caps. 

The Corporal 'Marksman' wears brass buttons and no cap badge but also has what appears to be a 'Rifles' bugle badge above his chevrons so may possibly belong to the same Unit?

The two young Buglers also wear the 'Bugle' badge on the arm.

 

Regards, Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

That's another cracking photo that you've found Simon, thank you for posting it.  I concur completely with your analysis and it's a good example of how the TF also recruited Boy Entrants, albeit only in the musical parts of the unit.  Most have the double bugle badge of rifles units but the boy at front left seems to have the single, light infantry bugle badge.  I've always though the 6th East Surrey badge to be quite an attractive one with its Maltese cross without crown above.

 

The Norfolk style jacket was also discussed in this old thread from 2016: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/243804-early-serge-frock-identification-please/

 

 

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

Both the Boy's wear the single bugle and I agree that the 6th cap badge is attractive and I have always thought them of superior quality in manufacture to the normal East Surreys badge one encounters.

 

Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

Both the Boy's wear the single bugle and I agree that the 6th cap badge is attractive and I have always thought them of superior quality in manufacture to the normal East Surreys badge one encounters.

 

Simon.

 

I think that the Boy seated on the right as we look has the double bugle, but the one seated on the left a single bugle?

 

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

Having looked under a glass you are correct, would this be down to the vagaries of supply of the same badge or do you believe that there is some other reason for the two badges being worn, length of service, qualification etc?

 

Regards, Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

Having looked under a glass you are correct, would this be down to the vagaries of supply of the same badge or do you believe that there is some other reason for the two badges being worn, length of service, qualification etc?

 

Regards, Simon.

 

In theory it should be due to vagaries of supply.  At that time the double bugle badge was very specifically for Rifles regiments and most TF units that had been formed from Rifle Volunteer Corps.  The single bugle was for Light Infantry.  Supply chain problems might have led to 'any bugle badge better than no bugle badge'.  Coming up to more recent times things became muddled and some units used the double bugle for superior buglers and bugle majors, so the whole differential between corps aspect became lost.

 

NB.  The double bugle was also a feature of the CSgts 'Colour Badge' that was unique to Rifle regiments.

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Simon, it is possible that the unit  appointed "CO's bugler" or "Adjutants bugler" and marked the appointment with a non-standard badge. 

I do know of such instances in more recent times. As in most interpretation of old photos, informed speculation is all we have.

[Surreyguardsman]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

In theory it should be due to vagaries of supply.  At that time the double bugle badge was very specifically for Rifles regiments and most TF units that had been formed from Rifle Volunteer Corps.  The single bugle was for Light Infantry.  Supply chain problems might have led to 'any bugle badge better than no bugle badge'.  Coming up to more recent times things became muddled and some units used the double bugle for superior buglers and bugle majors, so the whole differential between corps aspect became lost.

Thank you for that, I have to keep remembering that these were TF Units and so Dress Regulations and enforcement would have, I imagine, been less strict than in Regular Units.

 

Simon.

[Surreyguardsman]

5 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Simon, it is possible that the unit  appointed "CO's bugler" or "Adjutants bugler" and marked the appointment with a non-standard badge. 

I do know of such instances in more recent times. As in most interpretation of old photos, informed speculation is all we have.

Thank you, an interesting possibility and a possible explanation of the badges being worn concurrently.

 

Regards, Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

Thank you for that, I have to keep remembering that these were TF Units and so Dress Regulations and enforcement would have, I imagine, been less strict than in Regular Units.

 

Simon.

 

Yes, that's very true.  

 

I think that Muerrisch's comment regarding the use of badges in a non-standard way as prizes for better buglers is true for modern times, but there's no evidence that I've been able to find of their use in that way during the WW1 era, or before.  I was around, serving and involved in informal discussion concerning the use of prize badges.  It was an initiative adopted by several line regiments, one being the King's (Manchester and Liverpool) when Robin Hodges (who was CO and a badge enthusiast) introduced them as a means to develop pride and proficiency among his drummers.  The problem was infantry wide (less Guards) at the time, and being addressed by the HQ Director of Infantry at Warminster, where I was based.  The problem stemmed from pressures on establishments, and the fact that annual OP BANNER tours were making it very difficult for drummers to keep up their skills.  Many had become doubled up as MG platoons, which made matters worse.  The bugles prize badge initiative was one of several measures made in an attempt to improve the situation.

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, that's very true.  

 

I think that Muerrisch's comment regarding the use of badges in a non-standard way as prizes for better buglers is true for modern times, but there's no evidence that I've been able to find of there use in that way during the WW1 era or before.  I was around serving and involved in informal discussion concerning the use of prize badges.  It was an initiative adopted by several line regiments, one being the King's (Manchester and Liverpool) when Robin Hodges (who was CO and a badge enthusiast) introduced them as a means to develop pride and proficiency among his drummers.

Although not a badge as such, The Drummers in my Old Regiment competed annually for the'Silver Bugle' judged, if I remember correctly by the Commanding Officer, Adjudant and Drum Major. The winner being allowed to use the silver bugle in place of the brass one and so showing himself to be the 'Best' that year.

 

Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

Although not a badge as such, The Drummers in my Old Regiment competed annually for the'Silver Bugle' judged, if I remember correctly by the Commanding Officer, Adjudant and Drum Major. The winner being allowed to use the silver bugle in place of the brass one and so showing himself to be the 'Best' that year.

 

Simon.

 

That's precisely the sort of arrangement that was also made for line regiments (one of several measures, as mentioned).  I know that the Guards Division were approached informally as part of the discussions as to how the standards might be improved.  I became involved on the periphery purely because my interest in such matters was well known.

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

On 15/12/2020 at 14:12, Muerrisch said:

For the record, the Priced Vocab 1913 nomenclature for Sashes was: 

 

Sashes-Foot Guards, Infantry [except Rifle Corps and West India Regiment] and Highlanders

974 , Silk, Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants 10/-

975, Worsted, Sergeants, also Sergeants West African Regiment 1/8-

 

The silk sash was almost two day's pay at W O rates.

 

I have always wondered about the exact colour of the sashes. My attributed late victorian era ones are all are "Crimson" colour. 

I recently aquired a pair of wonderful orignal documents "annual accounts of the RACD 1898-99 and 1899-90" , simply amazing! Listing in great deatail quantities, prices of everything  made and repaired that year. The sashes are listed as" Turkey Red". A quick Google of Turkey red provides a great colour match. 

 

Edited 27 January , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting Toby and thank you for posting.  It just goes to show how the most unusual period documents can reveal previously obscure information.  None of the invaluable books on uniform by the likes of Lawson, Carman and Barthorp were able to say more than ‘crimson’ or ‘red’ and yet Turkey Red is a colour description that I’ve heard of before, albeit perhaps more just as something common to the Victorian era and vegetable based colour palette, when chemical dyes were only just beginning.  It’s important to note, and yet not made clear in this case, that there were (and still are) two patterns of sash for infantry SNCOs (they predate warrant officers).  The most numerous was made of woven worsted and a distinct red in shade.  The other was for 1st Class staff sergeants and manufactured in a distinctive herringbone weave from crimson silk thread that can clearly be identified in glass plate imagery (also see enclosed image for a contemporary example).  The description Turkey Red seems to match the former, but not the latter (that is today decreed for warrant officers only).  The company at this link specialises in the making of historical and contemporary sashes: https://coghlinandupton.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=27

 

Edited 27 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Mounted Infantryman, Dorset Regiment c1903.

 A recent addition and I am rather chuffed with it, as it ticks quite a few boxes!

 

A large mounted photograph of a Mounted Infantryman from the 2nd Battalion (Btn), Dorset Regiment.

 Superb image of an MI man, demonstrating perfectly the early Edwardian “transitional” era. The white on red DORSET title and large Btn numeral are clearly visible.

He still wears the P1889 Bandolier, P1888 “Slade Wallace” belt. Note the early Mills-Orndorff web sling (G.S MkI) on what I think due to the lack of a safety on the cocking piece is the MLM MkII. Given the length of the rifle, the sling is through the piling swivel, a common practice when used with the bucket.

A great view of the Brodrick cap with a chinstrap added, essential for mounted troops. Note his puttees are still wound the “infantry” way, from bottom to top. It was not until the mid 1900s that we see them worn “mounted” fashion, even with regular cavalry units.

 

Edited 1 February , 2021 by Toby Brayley