Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

With regards Sjts only being appointed "assistant instructor of signals", as we have seen in this very thread, there's a plethora of available evidence that this wasn't the case. We have seen L/Cpls and Cpls with crossed flags above chevrons, to me that would indicate NCO assistant instructors of various rank/appointments. 

 

 

Back to crimson sashes. Here is a wonderful original watercolour, from a series depicting life in a Militia Btn of the KOYLI, that I have now framed.  I know it is an artwork but CM Fall (the artist) eye for detail is just superb and pretty much flawless in these works. There is no doubt here, that the sash is depicted as crimson.  If we take a look at the contemporary works of Harry Payne, Ibbetson, Holloway etc similar is depicted. All artwork I know, but our only colour references aside from the original sashes. 

 

It would appear the scarlet Sjts sash is a post  Great War introduction. I have lots of pre 1914 evidence of it listed as crimson, but post c1920 it all seems to be scarlet. 

 

 

 

*edited*  for awful SPAG! 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 March , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

Toby, this thread refers, with lots of flags over chevrons: 

There were usually several assistant instructor-qualified men in a unit and, given the 1914 Establishment, very likely a sergeant [or lance-sergeant], a corporal and a lance-corporal. Clothing Regs 1914 quote AO 275/1912 :

"a signaller, if a colour-sergeant, will wear the Signaller's badge on the left arm above the elbow. Non-commissioned officers and men employed as signallers, but who have not the assistant instructors certificate will, while so employed, wear the badge below the elbow".

 

With regard to sash colour in [I stress] our period there seems little doubt that, whereas the material for staff and WO sashes was superior to that of sergeants, the colour was [reflectivity aside] very similar, and nearer to crimson than in modern times.

The thread below refers. NB see the OP sergeant portrait below and see how much paler the sash is than the scarlet tunic. Crimson has some blue content, so paleness, a property of blue in ortho film, confirms crimson.

 

Edited 3 March , 2021 by Muerrisch
addendum

[FROGSMILE]

I concur entirely with the comments of Muerrisch, albeit my own examination of old sashes has always shown a degree of variance in the shade between a sergeants worsted sash and the silken, herringbone weave type worn by staff sergeants and warrant officers (the latter after 1881).  To be an Assistant Instructor of Signals one had to be certificated.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/287737-british-and-australian-sergeants-at-st-valery-sur-somme-june-1917/?tab=comments#comment-2970390

 

Edited 3 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

A few snippets to add to the Forum knowledge of signals and signallers in our period.

The first is a group of 2nd RWF India or Burmah c. 1910, with two officers and 43 other ranks.

 

In the context of the album, it is "The Signallers", a very large group considering that the Establishment was 16 men ["The Band" and "The Drums" are similarly very well manned indeed].

The CO is Lt Col Delme-Ratcliffe, who took the battalion to the Great War. With him is the Signalling Officer, and two sergeants [or lance-sergeants] and a corporal, all three with the assistant-instructor qualification. There are three lance-corporals, qualified as signallers but not to instruct. Glimpses of signaller qualification and many GCBs can be seen on others, together with the tools of the trade: flags, heliograph, lamp, telescope etc.

These men were an elite, numerate, literate and capable of learning a difficult skill.

I have similar group photos taken in India, all showing a big interest by units to train up a big pool of signallers.

[Muerrisch]

Secondly I have looked at 1894 Clothing Regs to confirm that colour sergeants, if qualified as signallers, were to wear crossed signals flags on the left arm, as per the 1914 regulations. We may reasonably assume that the ruling applied throughout 1894 to 1914.

The senior signaller [other than the officer] was titled "Sergeant-Assistant Instructor of Signalling". The Victorians did like their capital letters.

 

By kind permission of Toby Brayley I can show a VF /TF Rifles colour sergeant marksman [the crown may be "George"], with a pragmatic positioning of his instructor appointment badge, and he is also senior NCO of best shooting company, with at least three of five/ four-year stars. There is no "Proficient" SNCO four-point star, which is suggestive of TF rather than VF ..... or he ran out of room on his sleeve.

I leave it to others to identify the unit and to attempt to date it more precisely.

[FROGSMILE]

He’s a CSgt of the 1st Nottinghamshire Rifle Volunteer Corps, wearing black patent leather belt with blackened mounts, including crowned Maltese cross belt plate badge, circular boss with applied design of Arms of Nottingham, to which is attached the whistle and chains.  The officers’ version had silver mounts.  They became a Volunteer Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters and were known as the Robin Hood Rifles.  Post 1908, 7th Bn Notts & Derby Regt (TF).

 

 

Edited 12 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

A few snippets to add to the Forum knowledge of signals and signallers in our period.

The first is a group of 2nd RWF India or Burmah c. 1910, with two officers and 43 other ranks...

 

Grumpy - a little easier on the eye with a few tweaks I hope:

 

 

Edited 11 March , 2021 by Andrew Upton

[Muerrisch]

Thank you.

[Toby Brayley]

 

On 11/03/2021 at 18:12, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a CSgt of the 1st Nottinghamshire Rifle Volunteer Corps, .......

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for that! Here's another of the same chap, but in a frock  and sans accoutrements! 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Thank you for that! Here's another of the same chap, but in a frock  and sans accoutrements! 

 

That’s an especially nice photo of a later pattern frock Toby, slightly unusual with its twisted shoulder cords, although there was a period when they were popular as you know.  Being a TF unit the procurement of uniform by County Associations often stepped away from regular army patterns.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 15 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Toby, thank you, an excellent follow-up. 

 

Is he VF in the first version and TF in the second ?................. the absence of the 4 point proficiency star in both portraits may mean little or nothing, but, in itself, suggests TF. 

The badges and accoutrements in the first portrait may be heritage [and expensive] items carried over in 1908. The medal ribbon may help in dating, but I cannot identify it, and it may be there but obscured in the first portrait.

 

As ever,  matters of minutiae to ponder.

[Toby Brayley]

25 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Toby, thank you, an excellent follow-up. 

 

Is he VF in the first version and TF in the second ?................. the 

 

I couldn't call it either way, but as you said previously the KC places it firmly into the 1900s. The medal, in both images, appears to be the Volunteer Long Service Medal, instituted in 1894.  :-) 

[Muerrisch]

As big as a dustbin lid and I missed it!

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I couldn't call it either way, but as you said previously the KC places it firmly into the 1900s. The medal, in both images, appears to be the Volunteer Long Service Medal, instituted in 1894.  :-) 

Muerrisch makes a good point.  On balance I think it probably just about predates 1908 and the TF, as the cap badge on his field service cap still appears to be the RHR stylised monogram (the regiment’s central device) surmounted by a crown.  So perhaps a couple of years after the 2nd Boer War.

[Jerry B]

4th welsh TF with one chap still having his earlier cloth WELSH title

[FROGSMILE]

Great photo Jerry, thanks for posting it.  He would have removed the previous battalion number and V after 1908, but left the regimental name (the cloth titles phased out and replaced with gilding metal plus the new letter T and revised battalion number.  Note the boy entrant immediately behind him. 

[Wardog]

Cloth Welsh badge man looks to have the early epaulets on his SD Jacket. Regards, Paul.

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/10/2021 at 16:26, Wardog said:

Cloth Welsh badge man looks to have the early epaulets on his SD Jacket. Regards, Paul.

Yes, they are the initial type fitted to the 1902 service dress when it was first introduced.

[Heydchap]

On 04/09/2018 at 12:26, Toby Brayley said:

New favourite addition to my collection.  When it comes to shooting badges it doesn't get better than this! 

 

1st Devonshire Regiment and their trophies 1907. Superb array of shooting badges worn by most; including best shot of Sgts (wreathed with crown), best shot among Cpls, L/Cpls and Ptes (wreathed with star). Most wear the best shot in Company (crossed rifles with star). The seated Sgt at front also wears crossed rifle on his lower right  awarded to each Sgt of the best shooting company.  

 

There is even a single Devon cloth Shoulder title (a new addition to this thread) mixed in with the brass and Mk1 SMLEs! 

 

Enjoy

 

 

Hi there, I’m new to this forum, and I just have a quick question regarding the cloth Devon shoulder titles. I’ve been doing a lot of research but I can’t seem to find any evidence of them existing other than in the picture you’ve provided. Were cloth shoulder titles common amongst the Devons? More specifically, did they use them during the war? 
 

thanks!

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/06/2022 at 19:48, Heydchap said:

Hi there, I’m new to this forum, and I just have a quick question regarding the cloth Devon shoulder titles. I’ve been doing a lot of research but I can’t seem to find any evidence of them existing other than in the picture you’ve provided. Were cloth shoulder titles common amongst the Devons? More specifically, did they use them during the war? 
 

thanks!

The white on scarlet cloth titles** were replaced by brass metal titles between 1907-08 and these were in use in 1914.  After 1916 woven titles in off white on drab khaki were introduced, initially as sliders onto the shoulder strap, but I think it was in 1917 (from memory) that it was ordered that they should be stitched directly on to the upper arm (or shoulder strap instead - both are seen).  The sealed patterns of these latter woven badges had letters with serifs ambut there are also types with block letters that appear to have been issued in warm climates (see below).

**the letters had serifs and should not be mixed up with the plain block letter type issued during and after WW2.

Edited 22 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Heydchap]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The white on scarlet cloth titles were replaced by brass metal titles between 1907-07 and these were in use in 1914.  After 1916 woven titles in off white on drab khaki were introduced, initially as sliders onto the shoulder strap, but I think it was in 1917 (from memory) that it was ordered that they should be stitched directly on to the upper arm (or shoulder strap instead - both are seen).  The sealed pattern woven badges had letters with serifs and there are also types with block letters that appear to have been issued in warm climates.

Ahh great thank you so much! This actually also leads me to another question. In the film 1917, I’ve noticed some of the soldiers have a red stripe on their upper arms, do you know what this might be? 

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, Heydchap said:

Ahh great thank you so much! This actually also leads me to another question. In the film 1917, I’ve noticed some of the soldiers have a red stripe on their upper arms, do you know what this might be? 

They were part of a so-called battle patches scheme introduced in the lead up to the Somme battles of 1916.  There was no pan Army instruction dictating precisely what the design or arrangement should be and it was left to Divisions to identify their own.  These were not embraced happily by a majority of the divisions formed from regular units, but the war-raised ‘service’ (Kitchener) battalions especially, plus many Territorial units adopted them enthusiastically.  They often comprised different colour cloth bars, squares, circles and triangles, but there were many variations.  Most were worn on upper arms, but sometimes also on the upper back between the shoulder blades.  For greater detail see: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/3964-cloth-insignia/

Better organised schemes were also adopted by Canadian and ANZAC units and later the Americans introduced their own versions too. 

Edited 21 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Heydchap]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They were part of a so-called battle patches scheme introduced in the lead up to the Somme battles of 1916.  There was no pan Army instruction dictating precisely what the design or arrangement should be and it was left to Divisions to identify their own.  These were not embraced happily by a majority of the divisions formed from regular units, but the war-raised ‘service’ (Kitchener) battalions especially, plus many Territorial units adopted them enthusiastically.  They often comprised different colour cloth bars, squares, circles and triangles, but there were many variations.  Most were worn on upper arms, but sometimes also on the upper back between the shoulder blades.  For greater detail see: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/3964-cloth-insignia/

Better organised schemes were also adopted by Canadian and ANZAC units and later the Americans introduced their own versions too. 

Wow thanks for clearing that up for me! That’s cleared up a lot of confusion for me! And funny enough, I actually managed to grab a set of Devon shoulder titles today

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Heydchap said:

Wow thanks for clearing that up for me! That’s cleared up a lot of confusion for me! And funny enough, I actually managed to grab a set of Devon shoulder titles today

I’m glad to help.  Beware, it can become addictive!

[GWF1967]

Pre-War Army Service Corps with Brodrick caps.

Named on the back of the card as, - "Devoto,  Orbinski,  McCabe,  Ward,  Mealy"